ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
And the KMad, prepare for Hello Kitty showdown.
pre-chopping/whipping mechanics
- Thread starter wdepner
- Start date
And the KMad, prepare for Hello Kitty showdown.
Whipping does take into account production bonuses, overflow does not.
If you're industrious and overflow a unit to a forge you'll get the bonus on the overflow. If you overflow a forge to a unit you will not get the forge bonus for the unit. Make sense?
If you're industrious and overflow a unit to a forge you'll get the bonus on the overflow. If you overflow a forge to a unit you will not get the forge bonus for the unit. Make sense?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
no it doesn't
. i said:note no mention of overflow. i was merely adding in my traditional "potentially useless information that i have the urge to type" sidetrack fashion. i'm comparing whipping in general to rush-buying later in the game. see what i mean?
Quechua is talking directly about overflow. and he didn't say "you don't get production bonuses on the building you whip", he said "it doesn't matter if ...". so no contradiction at all
. no need for a face-off today *giggle*.edit: see? what a cross-posting frenzy
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
There's one additional piece that doesn't appear to have been mentioned.
Part of the challenge that produced the MCP gambit was earliest Pyramids (lacking stone or industrious). That element is what added the urgency to constructing the Oracle. If you aren't trying to beat the clock, you have a bit more time available, so whipping the Oracle isn't critical.
My feeling is that in BTS, you've got a lot more time for the whole thing - the Better AI defers construction of the Pyramids for quite a while.
Part of the challenge that produced the MCP gambit was earliest Pyramids (lacking stone or industrious). That element is what added the urgency to constructing the Oracle. If you aren't trying to beat the clock, you have a bit more time available, so whipping the Oracle isn't critical.
My feeling is that in BTS, you've got a lot more time for the whole thing - the Better AI defers construction of the Pyramids for quite a while.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I think so. Too much micro management I think 
So the production bonus applies to what the overflow goes into... so you can whip anything basically before getting the bonus.
So what happens if you whip something with a bonus (like a building with OR) into something with a bonus (like a wonder with Ind)?
So the production bonus applies to what the overflow goes into... so you can whip anything basically before getting the bonus.So what happens if you whip something with a bonus (like a building with OR) into something with a bonus (like a wonder with Ind)?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
and for your extra-bonus sorta side-tracky "somebody might not know this" info:
overflow from whipping / chopping / rush-buying is stored if the next thing you build is research/culture/wealth. that can be really useful when you want a headstart on a wonder that you don't have the tech for yet but it'll be coming soon enough that the city can stall meantime.
you can't whip / rush-buy / or even use a GE on projects and spaceship parts. but you can whip or rush-buy something else and then apply the overflow to the project or SS. i'm throwing that in there in case you're using the oracle for Rocketry or something, but usually that isn't an issue at the point of the game y'all are talking about. ps chopping does directly apply to those items, you don't need to use overflow for that.
edit: oh! there's VoU, the author of the article i was thinking of linking but hadn't bothered to find. here we go: Vocum Sineratio: The Whip. i learned a lot from that one. and still have a looooooooooooong way to go to be a really good whipper.
overflow from whipping / chopping / rush-buying is stored if the next thing you build is research/culture/wealth. that can be really useful when you want a headstart on a wonder that you don't have the tech for yet but it'll be coming soon enough that the city can stall meantime.
you can't whip / rush-buy / or even use a GE on projects and spaceship parts. but you can whip or rush-buy something else and then apply the overflow to the project or SS. i'm throwing that in there in case you're using the oracle for Rocketry or something, but usually that isn't an issue at the point of the game y'all are talking about. ps chopping does directly apply to those items, you don't need to use overflow for that.
edit: oh! there's VoU, the author of the article i was thinking of linking but hadn't bothered to find. here we go: Vocum Sineratio: The Whip. i learned a lot from that one. and still have a looooooooooooong way to go to be a really good whipper.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
No! I have head-explodey!
GE's don't get any bonus do they? So you want to use them as late as poss (preferably, the turn before they would complete the building), then whip maybe for added overflow.
Sometimes I yearn for the simplicity I feel must be inherent at the Hello Kitty Best Friends' Game strategy and tips forum
EDIT: Although I bet KMad pwns all at that game
GE's don't get any bonus do they? So you want to use them as late as poss (preferably, the turn before they would complete the building), then whip maybe for added overflow.
Sometimes I yearn for the simplicity I feel must be inherent at the Hello Kitty Best Friends' Game strategy and tips forum
EDIT: Although I bet KMad pwns all at that game
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
no overflow from using a GE at all. well, you get overflow from the hammers you're producing but not using that turn, if the GE finishes it all. if i understand how that whole thing works, which i might not.
that Hello Kitty game can be pretty complex and full of intrigue if you want it to be. friendship is not always simple, you know. and yup, at that game i'd probably say i'm quite good, not a Permanoob.
that Hello Kitty game can be pretty complex and full of intrigue if you want it to be. friendship is not always simple, you know. and yup, at that game i'd probably say i'm quite good, not a Permanoob.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
I'm back from my television excursion now ... and wow a lot has transpired.
The overflow is in base hammers, but the production bonus to the first build (the one whipped) affects how many base hammers are used -- and thus how many hammers are overflowed.
For example, where a non-Aggressive leader would expend 12 hammers and overflow only 18
on a Barracks @ -12 hammers, an Aggressive leader would expend just 6 and overflow 24 on that same Barracks @ -12 hammers.
So the first build's production bonus allows you to shave a few turns and overflow just as much or more (versus a non-boosted leader).
The bonus is small, but turns are turns, ya know?
Otherwise, whipping a unit is just as good as whipping a building.
IOW: Apply the
to whatever unit/building is going to result in the fewest base used (and thus the one with the highest production bonus or fewest needed to finish).
You sonofa. .. .. .. .. .
j/k
Now it sounds like you're contradicting yourself.
Or maybe it's too late for me to be trying to count, huh?
EDIT: It's taken me an hour, but now I understand what you meant ... we were saying the same thing in different ways. The moral of both our stories is to calculate overflow based on the raw production -- not the bonus-modified production.
The overflow is in base hammers, but the production bonus to the first build (the one whipped) affects how many base hammers are used -- and thus how many hammers are overflowed.
For example, where a non-Aggressive leader would expend 12 hammers and overflow only 18
on a Barracks @ -12 hammers, an Aggressive leader would expend just 6 and overflow 24 on that same Barracks @ -12 hammers.So the first build's production bonus allows you to shave a few turns and overflow just as much or more (versus a non-boosted leader).
The bonus is small, but turns are turns, ya know?
Otherwise, whipping a unit is just as good as whipping a building.
IOW: Apply the
to whatever unit/building is going to result in the fewest base used (and thus the one with the highest production bonus or fewest needed to finish).Uh-oh...
Actually, I'm not contradicting KMad, I'm contradicting the Otaku
You sonofa. .. .. .. .. .
j/kNow it sounds like you're contradicting yourself.
Or maybe it's too late for me to be trying to count, huh?EDIT: It's taken me an hour, but now I understand what you meant ... we were saying the same thing in different ways. The moral of both our stories is to calculate overflow based on the raw production -- not the bonus-modified production.
- The only hammers that do not get production bonuses are those coming from a Great Engineer's rush.
- Overflow gets whatever production bonuses are applicable to the build[ing] the overflow is being applied to.
- If a Forge is in place, regardless of how that Forge was built, hammers receive a +25% bonus from it.
For example, if you whip a non-Industrious Forge at -1, 29 raw hammers overflow. Those 29 raw overflow hammers are applied to the next build as 29 * 1.25 = 36 modified .
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
AND hammers from rush buying (not an issue until you actually Have the Pyramids)
@OTAKUjbski, Sorry about that, I didn't originally mean to single you out.
My point (besides the minor 15 hammer error) is that production bonuses on the first building really don't give you any advantage for overflow. It may be helpful to think of production bonuses as reducing the cost of the build rather than multiplying the hammers. In your barracks example, it is as if you only have 6 hammers left in the Aggressive case. If you whip with 6 hammers left in the non-Aggressive case you get the same amount of overflow.
The overflow system may seem like a lot of micromanagement, but in fact it saves you from micromanaging because you can't get an advantage from build specific production bonuses - everything works as it should. (besides bypassing the wonder penalty, of course)
My point (besides the minor 15 hammer error) is that production bonuses on the first building really don't give you any advantage for overflow. It may be helpful to think of production bonuses as reducing the cost of the build rather than multiplying the hammers. In your barracks example, it is as if you only have 6 hammers left in the Aggressive case. If you whip with 6 hammers left in the non-Aggressive case you get the same amount of overflow.
The overflow system may seem like a lot of micromanagement, but in fact it saves you from micromanaging because you can't get an advantage from build specific production bonuses - everything works as it should. (besides bypassing the wonder penalty, of course)
OTAKUjbski
TK421
You know, I even thought about that after I submitted the post (not sure why I didn't just edit it in).
Thanks.
@OTAKUjbski, Sorry about that, I didn't originally mean to single you out.
No worries ... it's hard to have a discussion -- much more so any kind of disagreement or debate -- without singling somebody out.
I talk a lot, so I'm used to it.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
@OTAKUjbski, Sorry about that, I didn't originally mean to single you out.
No worries ... it's hard to have a discussion -- much more so any kind of disagreement or debate -- without singling somebody out.
I talk a lot, so I'm used to it.
yes he did! the other choice was me, and i'm scary. and i don't talk a lot.
anybody who believes that, well, maybe civ4 is too complex for you and you should play chutes and ladders or something *giggle*.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
lets say you're running OR and have 10 left in your barracks, and you whip providing 30. you would only use 8 to complete the barracks and (10/1.25) the other 22 would become overflow. so you still recieve your bonus, but it only applies to the number of hammers you need to complete what your whipping. so in the case of running OR, it would be more efficient to whip a building since you'll need less hammers to complete it, leaving more for overflow...does that sound right?
left in your barracks, and you whip providing 30. you would only use 8 to complete the barracks and (10/1.25) the other 22 would become overflow. so you still recieve your bonus, but it only applies to the number of hammers you need to complete what your whipping. so in the case of running OR, it would be more efficient to whip a building since you'll need less hammers to complete it, leaving more for overflow...does that sound right?You have the mechanics right, but I just can't agree with "more efficient" (maybe I'm just being too pedantic).
No matter what your production bonuses are you never going to get more than 30 overflow from whipping. The barracks with OR in your example is no different than whipping a unit with 8 hammers left. You still have to put the hammers into either to get them to 10 or 8 hammers left respectively. OR makes the barracks cheaper it doesn't affect the overflow.
No matter what your production bonuses are you never going to get more than 30 overflow from whipping. The barracks with OR in your example is no different than whipping a unit with 8 hammers left. You still have to put the hammers into either to get them to 10 or 8 hammers left respectively. OR makes the barracks cheaper it doesn't affect the overflow.
Similar threads
