preferred religious beliefs for Russia?

[darkace77450]

Since farms can't be built in tundra, cities near that terrain type can have a tough time growing. I've been taking Dance of the Aurora for the faith boosts, but I can't help but feel I'd get a bit more bang for my buck if I went for Goddess of the Hunt (or another +food/growth belief). If I stacked this with Feed the World (which the AI always seems to take when they beat me to a religion) and possibly Gurdwara and that could go a bit towards offsetting the lack of farming space that come with Russia's tundra starts. Your thoughts?

 

[ThomasClark]

If you have the tundra available to get at least 2 Lavras with +5 adjacency (or 3 with +4 adjacency, somewhat arbitary), I'd take Dance of the Aurora. If you aren't near tundra and you can see 3+ pastures, I'd take God of Open Sky. If you have neither I'd look at one the +1 hammer pantheons.

Keep in mind the Lavra is a +1 food district for domestic trade routes. If you have a food problem, I'd try to solve it with domestic trade routes. You want just enough food to grow to your housing cap, then you want to work hammers, not food. To that end, I prefer Religious Community (the +1 housing for shrine and temples) over the intrinsic food yield belief.

 

[Browd]

As Russia, try the following -- keep taking Dance of the Aurora to max out the adjacency bonuses in tundra (optimally, getting +5 and +6 in every tundra city). When you found your religion, grab Gurdwara as your worship building (+3 faith and +2 food) and Feed the World as your follower belief (Shrines and Temples yield food equal to their intrinsic faith output -- i.e., +2 food for Shrines and +4 food for Temples). Generating +8 food in each Lavra city should go a long way to solving your tundra starvation problem (in addition to a few internal trade routes).

 

[jaegybomb]

I've always gone defender of the faith. If you survive until Cossacks you win.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

If you can get it Jesuit Education synergizes well with Russia's GP generation. When I played Russia I had more (a lot more!) faith than I knew what to do with, and JE lets you turn it into hammers. It can help a lot for a CV.

 

[Soffacet]

Work Ethic + Church Property is practical and flexible.

 

[jaegybomb]

If you can get it Jesuit Education synergizes well with Russia's GP generation. When I played Russia I had more (a lot more!) faith than I knew what to do with, and JE lets you turn it into hammers. It can help a lot for a CV.

I'm not a huge fan of Jesuit Education on Russia. Russia already has the best built in faith dump already since they get theocracy and cossacks at just about the same time.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I'm not a huge fan of Jesuit Education on Russia. Russia already has the best built in faith dump already since they get theocracy and cossacks at just about the same time.

There's quite a bit of time between the time you unlock Theocracy and cavalry. Way too much time to wait just for cossacks. In any event I've had plenty of faith to field an army AND buy a bunch of theater square buildings. I guess to a point it depends on whether you want a dom or culture victory, but Russia can generate enough faith to do both at the same time.

 

[Soffacet]

There's quite a bit of time between the time you unlock Theocracy and cavalry. Way too much time to wait just for cossacks. In any event I've had plenty of faith to field an army AND buy a bunch of theater square buildings. I guess to a point it depends on whether you want a dom or culture victory, but Russia can generate enough faith to do both at the same time.

Reformed Church and Military Science are in different trees so I don't think you can be so sure about the length of the delay between them. You can tune the delay by adjusting the priority you give to science and culture. I personally don't think it's that long, and the slight delay does let you build up faith with Simultaneum.

You can't deny that there is anti-synergy between Jesuit Education and faith-purchased Cossacks. Every campus/theatre expenditure is detracting from the number of Cossacks you will have. I suppose Cossacks are so good that you might not need the maximum amount of them, but its still best practice to fully commit to a timing attack if you are going to make one.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Reformed Church and Military Science are in different trees so I don't think you can be so sure about the length of the delay between them. You can tune the delay by adjusting the priority you give to science and culture. I personally don't think it's that long, and the slight delay does let you build up faith with Simultaneum.

You can't deny that there is anti-synergy between Jesuit Education and faith-purchased Cossacks. Every campus/theatre expenditure is detracting from the number of Cossacks you will have. I suppose Cossacks are so good that you might not need the maximum amount of them, but its still best practice to fully commit to a timing attack if you are going to make one.

First, Theocracy comes at Reformed Church, which is a Renaisance Era Civic that cost 400 clefs (culture units) while military science is an Industrial Era tech that cost 700 beakers. That's decisively later regardless of what you focus on. If you love your cossacks that's fine but be aware that there's a gap.
Second, if you want a DV of course JE won't help. It will, however, help a lot with SVs and CVs. Since you're Russia you'll have enough faith to buy an army at the same time you're buying all the science and culture buildings. Remember that you CAN do both, and since you're Russia you DO have enough faith for that.
Third, why do I care about cossacks in SP? They're only good for DVs and if that's what I'm doing I'll be 75% done by the Industrial Era anyway. Russia is a very powerful civ but cossacks don't really help you win.

 

[Soffacet]

First, Theocracy comes at Reformed Church, which is a Renaisance Era Civic that cost 400 clefs (culture units) while military science is an Industrial Era tech that cost 700 beakers. That's decisively later regardless of what you focus on. If you love your cossacks that's fine but be aware that there's a gap.
Second, if you want a DV of course JE won't help. It will, however, help a lot with SVs and CVs. Since you're Russia you'll have enough faith to buy an army at the same time you're buying all the science and culture buildings. Remember that you CAN do both, and since you're Russia you DO have enough faith for that.
Third, why do I care about cossacks in SP? They're only good for DVs and if that's what I'm doing I'll be 75% done by the Industrial Era anyway. Russia is a very powerful civ but cossacks don't really help you win.

We're not on the same page at all. Nowhere ITT has anyone specified whether this discussion pertains to SP, MP, or both situationally. Cossacks are the best unit in the game. Conquering neighbors is an important part of culture/any SP or MP victory.

I don't know how much faith you think Russia generates, but the last time I executed the Theo/Cossacks strat I bought 5 on the first turn they were unlocked. If I had spent faith on JE I would have been able to afford maybe 2.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

We're not on the same page at all. Nowhere ITT has anyone specified whether this discussion pertains to SP, MP, or both situationally. Cossacks are the best unit in the game. Conquering neighbors is an important part of culture/any SP or MP victory.

I don't know how much faith you think Russia generates, but the last time I executed the Theo/Cossacks strat I bought 5 on the first turn they were unlocked. If I had spent faith on JE I would have been able to afford maybe 2.

1.SP and MP are extremely different. That changes a lot of things.

2. This thread is about good beliefs for Russia. JE is enormously helpful for CVs and SVs. That's true no matter how much you love cossacks. Cossacks and JE are two different tools that are meant for different jobs. You can't invalidate my point by talking up cossacks.

3. Instead of waiting for cossacks you could have been faith buying conventional units and conquering cities for an entire era. The cossacks were fun to use but really, they just slowed you down.

 

[jaegybomb]

There's only half an era difference between theocracy and cossacks and I think most people tear through the science tree half an era faster. Yea, there really isn't much difference at all early and midgame between a SV and DV. You can't talk Russia without talking about cossacks.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

There's only half an era difference between theocracy and cossacks and I think most people tear through the science tree half an era faster. Yea, there really isn't much difference at all early and midgame between a SV and DV. You can't talk Russia without talking about cossacks.

Alright, I get it, you love cossacks. Please explain, what does that have to do with JE as a viable choice for Russia? Also, how do the cossacks help you win a SV?

 

[jollywonk]

JE gets you up the tech tree and civic tree faster. If you save 5 turns building a University here and 8 turns building an art museum there, all of it is widening the window for Cossack insanity before tanks come in and end the party. It's not anti-synergy necessarily. I typically have plenty of faith to use on buying Great People and for buying more Cossacks than my economy can even support, so it's not a mutually exclusive issue.

That said I still prefer Religious Community because that +2 housing can turn into 8 or so hammers (2 additional mines) earlier in the game, and allow me to build an extra district, and I get 1.4 science and .6 culture from those 2 extra citizens. And I prefer to spend my faith on swiping the best Great People.

 

[Soffacet]

Alright, I get it, you love cossacks. Please explain, what does that have to do with JE as a viable choice for Russia? Also, how do the cossacks help you win a SV?

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Of course JE can be criticized if the civ in question has a better faith sink available.

Conquering your neighbor = more cities = more science = less turns spent waiting to complete SV. Same deal with TV, just with great work slots instead.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I typically have plenty of faith to use on buying Great People and for buying more Cossacks than my economy can even support, so it's not a mutually exclusive issue.

That said I still prefer Religious Community because that +2 housing can turn into 8 or so hammers (2 additional mines) earlier in the game, and allow me to build an extra district, and I get 1.4 science and .6 culture from those 2 extra citizens. And I prefer to spend my faith on swiping the best Great People.

JE gets you up the tech tree and civic tree faster. If you save 5 turns building a University here and 8 turns building an art museum there, all of it is widening the window for Cossack insanity before tanks come in and end the party. It's not anti-synergy necessarily. I typically have plenty of faith to use on buying Great People and for buying more Cossacks than my economy can even support, so it's not a mutually exclusive issue.

That said I still prefer Religious Community because that +2 housing can turn into 8 or so hammers (2 additional mines) earlier in the game, and allow me to build an extra district, and I get 1.4 science and .6 culture from those 2 extra citizens. And I prefer to spend my faith on swiping the best Great People.

Now this makes sense. When I played Russia my faith quickly went over 150 fpt. At that rate you have to find ways to use your faith because you can buy more units than you can maintain. You can monger it up all you want even without the shiny UU. If you do want a SV you'll want to save enough for the last two engineers, but you can do that even if you do faith buy an army and a bunch of culture and science buildings.
On the other hand it sounds like you have a good way to use religious communities. I tend not to worry about housing much, but I'm sure I could squeeze more out of my cities if I did.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Of course JE can be criticized if the civ in question has a better faith sink available.

Conquering your neighbor = more cities = more science = less turns spent waiting to complete SV. Same deal with TV, just with great work slots instead.

Well, if you intend to sweep your continent it's best to do so before anyone crosses the ocean so you can duck the war monger penalty- or does that still work? They always hate me anyway It doesn't matter, unless I'm looking for a DV I'm pretty much done with war by the Industrial Era. That's why I don't value the Cossack much in SP. In MP I have no doubt that they're an ungodly terror that you want to bring on-line ASAP. I'm not sure how good JE is in MP for any civ, but I know from experience how sweet it can be in SP as Russia. They're good at generating GWAMs if that's your thing, and the buildings that house great works are expensive otherwise.

 

[jaegybomb]

Here's the other thing with JE, it's a slower mid game bonus. You invest in enough faith generation and it eventually pays itself back in production and starts turning a profit. Russia already has a mid game bonus that is tied with Hansa for the best in the game in Cossacks. They just need a way to get there since their early game is their biggest weakness. Defender of the faith safely shores up their biggest weakness. If you are playing easy enough competition where it doesn't matter sure there might be other win-more options that are better but if you are playing tough competition that is actually suited for you DotF is the best choice to round out their kit and play to their strengths.

 

[jaegybomb]

Unless you are playing islands without another civ that is able to walk over to you without embarking. I don't really know that meta nearly as well.

 

[Soffacet]

Well, if you intend to sweep your continent it's best to do so before anyone crosses the ocean so you can duck the war monger penalty- or does that still work? They always hate me anyway It doesn't matter, unless I'm looking for a DV I'm pretty much done with war by the Industrial Era. That's why I don't value the Cossack much in SP. In MP I have no doubt that they're an ungodly terror that you want to bring on-line ASAP. I'm not sure how good JE is in MP for any civ, but I know from experience how sweet it can be in SP as Russia. They're good at generating GWAMs if that's your thing, and the buildings that house great works are expensive otherwise.

I don't take AI warmonger penalties into consideration at all. They almost always hate you anyways, and by the time we're talking about, they can't hurt you even if they all declare on you anyways.

I don't see why there should be an arbitrary cutoff for war. In SP there's still plenty of game left after Industrial Era. Obviously, generic civ can attack whenever it feels an advantage, and certain other civs should war when they have their own UUs. But in SP Cossacks are just cities for free. If you can easily take your neighbor's cities, you should do so. Just like anything else in this game, it's an investment that will initially set you back but will eventually pay off.

Here's the other thing with JE, it's a slower mid game bonus. You invest in enough faith generation and it eventually pays itself back in production and starts turning a profit. Russia already has a mid game bonus that is tied with Hansa for the best in the game in Cossacks. They just need a way to get there since their early game is their biggest weakness. Defender of the faith safely shores up their biggest weakness. If you are playing easy enough competition where it doesn't matter sure there might be other win-more options that are better but if you are playing tough competition that is actually suited for you DotF is the best choice to round out their kit and play to their strengths.

The thing with Russia is that their early game isn't even weak. Nearly guaranteed insta-pantheon = free yield. Nearly guaranteed first religion with extremely little investment = follower belief = free yield. Superior available tiles = free yield. They even pop an early great writer from Lavra for free culture. Being able to secure DoF on top of all that is crazy. It lets a civ with a good early game hold out for their insane UU even if the entire game hates them and wants them dead. These guys are right up there with Rome right now IMO.

If I'm being greedy in SP I would pick a founder belief with yield. But in MP Defender of the Faith is the most solid way to go, and basically mandatory if you want to survive.

Work Ethic vs Religious Community vs Meditation is an interesting debate.