Prince is the death of me

[dougferret]

I've done fairly well thus far but can't seem to find success when playing at Prince level. Basically, I can't expand my empire without killing my economy, but if I go conservative to preserve that, I have a small empire and I get behind, then trounced by the AI. How much micromanaging is required at this level? Are there special tips for managing city-by-city (that's more of a general question)? I usually have poor luck with the space race turned on, so I do a custom game and turn it off. Suggestions very much appreciated.

 

[Cam_H]

(a.) Perhaps post a game for advice or tips? It's common that someone in the forum will be prepared to offer some advice if you can provide an example. Maybe a game around 1AD? I trust you're not playing with mods and what-not installed or on particularly 'non-standard' settings(?).

(b.) Specialisation (or lack thereof) and/or 'unoptimal' food management seem to common problems that other players have experienced when struggling at this level.

 

[dougferret]

Feeling stupid -- how do I post a game? I'm new to this whole thing, in fact the jargon confuses me. No I don't have any cool add-ons for my Civ game, in fact, a friend downloaded stuff for me that enabled the 'fractal' map (if this gives you an idea). But I don't necessarily need the upgrades and all to succeed, do I? I have seen people posting their games and all, but I don't know how to do this. The only non-standard setting I do is to take out the space race, everything else stays at default.

 

[Cam_H]

There are a couple of ways to upload a game;

(1.) If you were feeling "pretty stupid" before ... use the 'Upload' option on the menu at the top of this screen.

(2.) When you use the "Go Advanced" button when replying, there's an option; "Manage Attachments" which also allows you to upload a game.

Looking forward to seeing where you're at! Oh - don't take off the 'Space Race' win - it gives the human player too much of an advantage because it the AI's preferred victory type.

 

[dougferret]

okay this is what I have for this game -- I'm the Romans, although apparently I saved it as "France"...? Or so I thought. At any rate, if you look at this, what did I do wrong? Sorry it's not early enough, but I usually don't save too early if things look bleak. The world has been researched, can you tell by this what I've done wrong? Sorry if it's not helpful. I'll keep this in mind the next time I start a new game to enable others to help.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61101/FrenchDougPrince.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Uncle E]

Hey dougferret,

I'm in the same boat on Prince level and have really learned alot reading the threads and playtesting games.

Romans do give you an advantage on keeping city maintenance costs low, so you might want to expand smartly by prescouting quickly towards the AI's and placing a city that's a bit closer to them that can be made into a production city. Since starting out researching Bronze working and then Iron working right after that gives you access to iron & praetorians, I'd try to found that city that will act as a Praetorian pump that is also close to an AI so you can just march over and wipe them out.

If you can't do that right off the bat, sometimes placing a city that can seal off an AI really will help you to fill in the land as your empire grows. Going worker - worker -settler right of the bat (chopping the 2nd worker then dbl chopping the 1st settler out) gives you alot of speed.

Just some suggestions for now. I'm gonna look at your save now.

 

[mice]

dougferret, I havent looked at your game, but I can relate to your situation.

A breakthrough for me was realising that with currency and Courts of law you can expand with out breaking the bank.

Currency gives you a trade route for each city, which starts to pay for it, and CoL cuts down maintenance, as you probably know.

A good rule of thumb can be , 3-4 cities before curency/CoL , and then 8,9 10 cities after that. In other words, time your big military push for when currency,CoL comes online.

Of course work your cottages. Land is power, it's just a case of getting the timing right.

 

[vormuir]

Another tip: if you can get a Holy City with a shrine, spread that religion to all your cities (and others too). Each city pays one gold to the Shrine. If your empire has 5 cities, that's five GPT (gold per turn). That can make the difference between running 70% tech and 90% tech.

The last poster brought up another good point -- Currency and Code of Laws are two key techs for growth. You really can't run a big empire for long without them. Currency gives you a trade route in every city, which is typically 1 or 2 extra commerce, and also lets you build Markets. Code of Laws lets you build Courthouses, which are absolutely crucial.

Why? Well, every city has maintenance costs, which depend on the size of the city, the distance from your capital, and the total number of cities in your empire. All these values tend to increase as your empire gets bigger. In the early game you pay almost no maintenance costs, but by the time you have five or six cities all of them will be paying at least 1 gold, and some will be paying 4, 5 or 6 gold.

You find the maintenance costs in the upper left hand corner of the city screen. Look for cities that are costing you 3 GPT or more, and build courthouses there. A courthouse cuts maintenance in half (rounded down), so a courthouse in that 3 GPT city will save you 2 GPT. This is how you support big empires.

Good luck,


Waldo

 

[pigswill]

Had a quick look at your save. You seem way behind on research, you also seem not to be too keen on tech-trading. I suspect these are related. From the current save you can pick up representation, democracy (Universal Suffrage and Emancipation), liberalism (Free Religion) and and corporation (extra trade route) in two turns which will help you modernise your civics and economy.
Selective tech-trading is something that begins to become important at prince along with city specialisation.

 

[Rycheman]

Hi Dougferret,
I've recently moved up from Noble to Prince level and have noticed that diplomacy/tech trading seems to be more important.If you don't trade with some/all other civs you will fall behind in teching.Also go for an early war with one of your neighbours and try to wipe them out before 1AD.

I also echo what Mice said regarding your economy.Only have 3/4 cities before COL/currency so you dont overstretch your economy.Once you have these techs in hand it's easier to start expanding.I usually do this by capturing good enemy cities,ones with wonders,good land/resources or a Holy city.All other cities should be razed.Another tip if you're having trouble with your economy,try a leader with either financial or organised trait.

In my current game as Memhed it's around 1000AD and playing with the above stratergy i'm currently 2nd in score and not far behind Augustus,who's leading.I've already wiped out Catherine of Russia and Louis of France only has one city left.I kept Moscow and Paris [both capitals] and razed everything else.I now have 5 cities and have researched COL and currency so my economy isn't in bad shape.CS is next so i can switch to Bureaucracy.

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

I have looked at your save, and saw some problems:

• you have seriously happiness problem because of emancipation, you need to get democracy.
• you are running pacifism. This civics only increases your great people birth in the cities of your state religion. No city of your state religion is producing great people.
• you are too small.
• you are lacking of city specialization.
• you are working too many water tiles and you have very nice not improved land tiles to work on.

Some tips:

• go for war earlier.
• get you Code Of Laws and Currency fast. With this two techs you can support a larger empire.
• take only the best cities and raze the rest.
• demand money before declaring war.
• try to get money/tech before asking for peace.
• tech-trading is important. Trade the same tech with the other civilization, in one round, for other techs and money.
• plan your tech path.

 

[dougferret]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I usually try to get to currency/Code of Laws more quickly, but perhaps was expanding too early before these (thus it takes longer to acquire them). I'll keep these in mind for the next game I start -- I do read the threads from time to time on here, there's LOTS of useful information but it can take some time to find the info I need.

When talking about city specialization, does that mean... emphasize production/growth/economy on the city screen? Ordinarily I don't bother with that, but from what I'm gathering, that's a mistake for the higher levels. Correct?

 

[Cam_H]

Dougferret,

I think that you need to have a victory condition in mind - I am not sure how you intend to win this game. It's one thing to be flexible about your goals, but you seem to be lagging in most victory areas. Perhaps targetting a win-type from an early stage will lend better focus to your strategy.

Personally I think that your best chance is 'Diplomatic' if not 'Diplomation' (using war as a vehicle to vote yourself into office) ... try to beat Gandhi to building the United Nations, where if all goes as intended you'll be up against Kublai Kahn (17% of the population). Kublai's popular with the other scummy aggressive tribes, but Gandhi and Frederick are more likely to vote for you, if not abstain. One very simple move here to further win over these two leaders is switching to Universal Suffrage (favourite civic for both!). As AnitaGaribaldi has already outlined - you would benefit from securing Democracy for Emancipation - so you may as well go for Universal Suffrage while you're at it. Gandhi's already at war with Montezuma, so you can pick up some "mutual military struggle" points there too if you go to war against the Aztecs. If you can work at dragging Frederick into the conflict, then you'll have a solid voting block. You're not in much of a position to take on Napolean's mainland right now without making some serious sacrifices in terms of whipping Rifles - which will undo any United Nations aspirations, so I'd look at signing peace with France as early as practicable. There are some city management issues to address that have been commented upon in earlier posts (another suggestion - more Granaries and Forges needed). Pigswill and Anita have both made some excellent specific observations about your game that I agree with.

Specialisation is essentially about giving your cities specific roles rather than having 'general' cities. Some cities will be production centres and focus on and , while others will be commerce centres and focus on and , while one (usually) will be a ' Farm', and concentrate on points and . Your production centres will make the bulk of your units, while the commerce centres will enhance your and/or with Libraries, Markets, Grocers, etc. etc. ... there's a lot of threads on city specialisation - Section 4.6 of Sisiutil's Strategy Guide does a good job on this topic (and others).

I hope that this has been of some help.

 

[csar508]

edited: answer already posted

 

[csar508]

Dougferret,

Specialisation is essentially about giving your cities specific roles rather than having 'general' cities. Some cities will be production centres and focus on and , while others will be commerce centres and focus on and , while one (usually) will be a ' Farm', and concentrate on points and . Your production centres will make the bulk of your units, while the commerce centres will enhance your and/or with Libraries, Markets, Grocers, etc. etc. ... there's a lot of threads on city specialisation - Section 4.6 of Sisiutil's Strategy Guide does a good job on this topic (and others).

I hope that this has been of some help.

do you try for a specific type of GP? I have been building stuff that produces great artist in one city while using another for great engineer etc etc

 

[tycoonist]

i am now feeling easily comfortable on prince to be able to give tips. while i haven't looked at the save, these are some things that often help:

1. attack a nearby civ when you have bronze. by doing this, hope to expand and get an empire of 5-6 cities.

2. when you have this empire, tech or trade to CoL and Currency. these will improve your research rate enormously.

3. next priority is getting to liberalism first for the free tech. this is also good because education, liberalism and your free tech are rarely got by the AI. therefore you can trade them for any techs you missed out on during the beeline.

4. settle back for a space race victory with your comfortable tech lead under your arm. your empire should now consist of around 10 (good) cities, gained by expansion or conquest.

5. specialize your cities. don't build everything in everyone. build perhaps a library, forge, granary, lighthouse and courthouse in all, but don't build buildings for the sake of building. if you have nothing else to build, get into the habit of building defensive military to put opposition off attacking you. this was my main problem when i stepped up.

you probably know most of this already, but this strategy got me my first wins on prince. a space race is easy against poor AI building and teching.

 

[vra379971]

city specialization means MANUALLY selecting the tiles you work per city.

 

[cabert]

city specialization means MANUALLY selecting the tiles you work per city.

not necessarily (although it helps).
For a production city, you select emphasize food and hammers.
For a commerce city, you select emphasize food and commerce (coin button).
For a GP farm, select emphasize GPP. If you want scientists above all else, click on science button too. Note that the GP farm needs more manual checking than the others.

 

[Chemtech]

I've been having trouble with Prince as well - I've put in most of the strats mentioned here however I have a few questions: Playing Vanilla btw...

1) I hate tech trading - my philosophy is that if I cant make it on my own I don't deserve to win - I usually play with "No Tech Trading" checked and yet - does this prevent AI to Ai trades? I could swear that it doesnt but I really don't know. How badly am I hurting myself here?



2) At what point do people consider a game a "loss"? I think I might be giving up too early but I am not sure. My last game (2 large continents and several smaller sub continents) - I found myself on a ring shaped continent with 2 other civs - using axes and swords I took out the other 2 civs - being precurrency I razed most of thier cities until I had currency then expanded to cover the entire continent - so basically I now control the land space of 3 civs and have the thing to myself:

About the time I fill most of the continent with cities I make contact with the "other side of the world" - I'm at 80% research and in the positive cashflow 5-30 gpt by this point - Im behind everyone still alive in score but I think I'll catch them... I play another 30-40 turns and DO catch all but Washington - he's got a 500 point lead and its slowly growing. About the time he finished SoL I gave up, retired and took a look at the world map.

He had a decent share of his continent but not overwhelming - he did manage to snag two smaller sub continents (2-3 cities each) without a fight. Even though he hadn't won a war with anyone he was still going to be able to outtech me to the end - the distances would have made anything but a modern era invasion impossible (imho).

Did I give up too early? What would have been your strat in this situation?

 

[cabert]

I've been having trouble with Prince as well - I've put in most of the strats mentioned here however I have a few questions: Playing Vanilla btw...

1) I hate tech trading - my philosophy is that if I cant make it on my own I don't deserve to win - I usually play with "No Tech Trading" checked and yet - does this prevent AI to Ai trades? I could swear that it doesnt but I really don't know. How badly am I hurting myself here?

up to noble, you're hurting the AIs (not being able to trade their way up vs your bonus research)
up from prince, you're hurting yourself for the same reason

I believe the game isn't winnable on emperor+ without tech trading.
It may be very difficult even at prince difficulty.
I never tried, tech trading is one of the most fun parts of the game IMHO.

2) At what point do people consider a game a "loss"? I think I might be giving up too early but I am not sure.

when you start losing core cities, you're going down fast
Other than this, play on.

My last game (2 large continents and several smaller sub continents) - I found myself on a ring shaped continent with 2 other civs - using axes and swords I took out the other 2 civs - being precurrency I razed most of thier cities until I had currency then expanded to cover the entire continent - so basically I now control the land space of 3 civs and have the thing to myself:

About the time I fill most of the continent with cities I make contact with the "other side of the world" - I'm at 80% research and in the positive cashflow 5-30 gpt by this point - Im behind everyone still alive in score but I think I'll catch them... I play another 30-40 turns and DO catch all but Washington - he's got a 500 point lead and its slowly growing. About the time he finished SoL I gave up, retired and took a look at the world map.

He had a decent share of his continent but not overwhelming - he did manage to snag two smaller sub continents (2-3 cities each) without a fight. Even though he hadn't won a war with anyone he was still going to be able to outtech me to the end - the distances would have made anything but a modern era invasion impossible (imho).

galleons filled with grenadiers and cannons+ frigates are powerful invading tools. No need for a tech lead, just bring numbers. If you can't defend a city, you can probably still raze a few smaller ones before engaging vs the main cities.

Did I give up too early? What would have been your strat in this situation?

You were in a winning position. Giving up there is