Production, Gold, Faith, Science and Culture

[myclan]

I think I have learnt a al lot in this thread that I would like to try to summarize it in another thread.

Presumed that all of us play this game for victory, no one actually want to be defeated right? Role playing or acheivement unlock are different thing, not discussed here.

So in order to win, what we always need is production. We need production to build an army for conquest victory, to build spaceship for science victory, to build worker and Effiel Tower and Cristo Redenter for culture victory, and build holy site for religion victory. Actually the more production, the better, it resmebles our ability of realizing something(like victory or other small object for victroy).

But the efficiency of production is always changing. When you suddenly encount a surprised war and have few units at the moment, building unit is of high eifficiency. When you are far advanced in science but short of culture, and the only one city can build is library, it is of low efficiency. The efficiency is even lower if in another city what you just have to build a research lab.

So production is always good, but is demanded differently in different cities/different time. But production is diificult to save up, nor is it easy to transfer to another city. To solve this problem, we have gold and faith.

Gold and faith can do many things, but can be concluded in a word: Transform to production. In civ6, the game defines 1production=1faith=2gold. But actully when we want to buy something, we need 4gold or 2faith to buy 1produciton. Of course it is of low efficiency so we can't always use them to get something.

But as we stated above, production is demanded differently in different cities/different time. Gold and faith are easy to store and belong to all the cities. We can just transform production to gold/faith when production is of low efficiency, and reverse when it is of high efficiency.

Gold can alwasys be used to buy almost all the building and units, while what faith can buy is limited. So gold is usually a better investment choice for production. But shrine/temple is cheaper and unlocked earlier than market/bank and before triangular trade it may be a bit difficult to earn a lot of gold. Sometimes faith is better than gold in early stage of the game.

Science/Culture is used to unlock things. They resembers our potential realizing something. We always need Rocketry to build a spaceport, if not, we can't build it even having a large amount of production. On the other hand, if we are short of production and even can't finish a university, we can't build a research lab even if we have chemistry.

So we need potential(Science/Culture) to expand out ability(Production), and need ability to fully enjoy the potential. Science and culture are not the more, the better, they need to be adjusted to our poduction, otherwise just increasing the cost of the district.

So what is the usage of this artical. It tells us:
1. Don't hurry to assign all your envoy to a Scientific/Culural CS if not for the suzerian. Don‘t build a lot of campus/theater district just because you have such CS allied. Instead, try to reduce the science/culture realted policy.
2. If you have met a lot of Commercial/Religional CS and have enough envoy for them. Focus on them and build a lot of commercial hub/holy site is a better choice, rather than spilting your envoys in every kind of CS. And remember you should have Jesuit Education/Valletta in order to use faith better. They are usually worth to invest.
3. Industial CS is not deserved to invest if you don't have a lof of envoys for you won't build industrial zone everywhere. But if you really have plenty of envoys, invest them all and build industrial zone in every cities.
4.Military CS? Good in opening game, suck with out suzerain in later game.
5.Salalin need to build a holy site+shrine+temple in every city to fully make use of his trait. He is not weak, just too map-dependent.

 

[Victoria]

Big title.... summarised as a few CS recommendations.
Not sure I agree with it all. Not everything works with the same rule all the time.

 

[myclan]

Big title.... summarised as a few CS recommendations.
Not sure I agree with it all. Not everything works with the same rule all the time.

Actually I just want to build a model and use it to guide my game, CS recommendation just a example of using it.

To summarize it in a word:
Don't over invest in science/culture, if already invested in one way, save up another way to invest in others.
it's better to focus on one of produciton/gold/faith, meet the minimun demand of the other two, instead of spilting your investment in all the 3. If there is need to change the focus, it's OK but never split.

 

[stinkubus]

Considering that the militaristic city states give buffs to builder and settler production, as well, I think they can be great investments early.

 

[VeronicaCardican]

In civ6, the game defines 1production=1faith=2gold.

I'd like to challenge that assumption.

Looking just at city states one faith seems to equal one production and two gold but if you look at buildings and adjacency boni things look differently.

Shrines and Temples are 2 and 4 faith respectively. Workshops and Factories are 2 and 3 production. Market and Bank are 3 and 5 gold. So the numbers are a bit off there.

Adjacency boni though really break that rule to many pieces. It's not very difficult to set up a holy site or two with adjacency boni of +4 to +6 given one of the proper pantheons and the right environment. Tack along the double adjacency policy and your faith output can soar into the sky very soon in the game (way before you even get to dream about setting up a factory or two).

Setting up a production bonus of similar scope is all but impossible.

I also disagree strongly about city states. Why would I ignore industrial and/or military city states if they fit my strategy in general? If I need to pump out lots of units, then military CS is a great benefit. Why would I not have industrial districts everywhere if I plan on grabbing most of the Great Engineers and high civil production all around?

Why would I focus on religious CS if I don't plan to use the faith economy reliably? Just because those CS are around doesn't mean it's now sensible to go all out on religion and throw my domination victory plans overboard.

And why wouldn't I invest heavy into science if culture isn't the game I'm playing? I might scientifically build up my army and then take other civs' culture by force. And if I am dilligent about culture I may coast that to victory with no need for the boost computers provide. Going balanced is often a sensible approach but it's by no means the only reasonable option.

 

[Victoria]

And if I am dilligent about culture I may coast that to victory

Yes science for a culture victory is important. I can even ignore culture completely if I can get enough seaside resorts.... and "coast" to victory

 

[myclan]

I'd like to challenge that assumption.

Looking just at city states one faith seems to equal one production and two gold but if you look at buildings and adjacency boni things look differently.

Shrines and Temples are 2 and 4 faith respectively. Workshops and Factories are 2 and 3 production. Market and Bank are 3 and 5 gold. So the numbers are a bit off there.

Adjacency boni though really break that rule to many pieces. It's not very difficult to set up a holy site or two with adjacency boni of +4 to +6 given one of the proper pantheons and the right environment. Tack along the double adjacency policy and your faith output can soar into the sky very soon in the game (way before you even get to dream about setting up a factory or two).

Setting up a production bonus of similar scope is all but impossible.
.

Faith is better to get in early stage while gold is easier and more useful in later stage. I don't know wha you are challenging, but if I want to play a religious economy and build a holy site in most of the cities and delay CH/IZ, I will assgin the envoy to religious C instead of others.

I also disagree strongly about city states. Why would I ignore industrial and/or military city states if they fit my strategy in general? If I need to pump out lots of units, then military CS is a great benefit. Why would I not have industrial districts everywhere if I plan on grabbing most of the Great Engineers and high civil production all around?
.

I have never said to ignore industrial CS IF they fit you strategy, I just said ignore it IF you want to focus on another thing because of your strategy. I never need to pump out lots of units because there is no more SO.

Why would I focus on religious CS if I don't plan to use the faith economy reliably? Just because those CS are around doesn't mean it's now sensible to go all out on religion and throw my domination victory plans overboard.
.

Again, I have never force you on on religious CS IF I don't plan to use the faith economy, I just said do it IF you want.

So I presumed you had were just misunderstanding my opinion. And I would modified some sentences for better understanding.

 

[Victoria]

On the gold, faith, production thing... you just cannot equate them... they just do not match correctly the more you look at them. There have been lots of discussion on this, on heuristics.

A good example is gold is spent globally while production is local.
Faith is much more limited unless you take this card and use that belief and even then how the hell do you factor in the cost of getting a religion in the first place.

You cannot equate them as simply as saying my 3 gold is equal to one production.

 

[stormerne]

@myclan On your original discussion about envoys, I've found that a frequently useful strategy is to hoard envoys for "envoy bombs" in the middle and late game. There are exceptions to this of course, but it can be useful technique at the start of a war to suddenly turn the tables with an enemy's immediate city state neighbors. Whether or (more likely) not these become a significant military threat to your enemy, you at least deprive them of routes for their units and you get yourself a beachhead or two. And the loss of production, gold, luxuries can also affect their war effort or their wonder/project production. In multiplayer, the psychological effect can be also be useful.

 

[Victoria]

It is possible to play both sides of the fence. Giving some credence to CS tasks that do not send you far astray but you would have missed if you had not looked allows some control and some bombs. I prefer to save some early civics as 5 turn later bombs, seems the most effective use. I really just stress that playing a game to get 100 envoys really makes you awake to the possibilities.

 

[stinkubus]

So many of the civics which grant envoys seem to take me off my preferred path through the tree, but I rarely play for anything other than domination.

 

[stormerne]

So many of the civics which grant envoys seem to take me off my preferred path through the tree, but I rarely play for anything other than domination.

Many of them are "leaf" nodes on the tree. If you save them till later in the game, you'll find that (a) you probably already have the inspiration, and (b) they take only a turn or two's distraction anyway, In which case, they can be a worthwhile pick up.

And don't forget the Merchant Confederation policy card, which gives you +1 gold for each envoy sent (not hoarded). From my experience, even domination players like more gold... to buy more units!

 

[Victoria]

Exactly @stormerne and so, playing CS well you get a green card that can say +25 gold for a turn instead of 2/75ths of an envoy. It's swings and roundabouts but it's all choices

 

[myclan]

On the gold, faith, production thing... you just cannot equate them... they just do not match correctly the more you look at them. There have been lots of discussion on this, on heuristics.

A good example is gold is spent globally while production is local.
Faith is much more limited unless you take this card and use that belief and even then how the hell do you factor in the cost of getting a religion in the first place.

You cannot equate them as simply as saying my 3 gold is equal to one production.

Yes, certainly they are not the same, which I had also stated in my article. But they are more or less similar. If I had a lot of production, my need of gold is smaller. And if I had a lot of gold, I still need production in every cities, but at least I can buid more things in the least productive cities. That is why I think they have something in common.

And yes, faith is sevely limitied in usage, but at least it can partilly decrease our need of gold/production, that is my point

@myclan On your original discussion about envoys, I've found that a frequently useful strategy is to hoard envoys for "envoy bombs" in the middle and late game. There are exceptions to this of course, but it can be useful technique at the start of a war to suddenly turn the tables with an enemy's immediate city state neighbors. Whether or (more likely) not these become a significant military threat to your enemy, you at least deprive them of routes for their units and you get yourself a beachhead or two. And the loss of production, gold, luxuries can also affect their war effort or their wonder/project production. In multiplayer, the psychological effect can be also be useful.

Yes, actually I like this strategy and use it quite often. In the early stage it may be not so important to assgin 3 envoys to certain CS because few districts are built, and sometimes youmay find more important CS to give the envoys