Progress on Immortal

[Txurce]

I've hit a wall in trying to win a Science victory on Immortal. This has been playing Carthage and Indonesia. I've come close a couple of times and lost to a runaway, but most of the time I hit an unhappiness wall while In Rationalism, or have a science/culture imbalance (both ways at different times). This is having a religion 95% of the time. In almost all these games I also have very low pop, despite having 10 or more cities at times, and focusing on pop buildings. So I thought I'd list some of the areas where I may be going wrong, and see what others think.

• capital builds shrine/monument/scout (gold)/well-granary-council (2 out of 3), then settlers after size 5 or 6 every other turn until I have 4-6 cities, then pause until roughly midgame, and expand again.
• no specialists until size 10, then specialists in libraries and WGs or AGs; specialists in universities after 14 or so, then only in science buildings and if reasonable a chancery.
• capital builds no guilds, but fills all specialist slots after size 7-20 or so.
  
• cities build shrine/monument/well-granary/council, then often amphitheaters and walls before size 10.
• I burn every GW and GA on culture and Golden Ages.
• Progress/Statecraft/Rationalism/Freedom (experimenting with 2 Aesthetics, then Statecraft)

Religion:

• Indonesia: Festivals; Carthage: Commerce.
• Transcendence (if pre-Classical), Holy Law (if available), or Theocratic Rule.
• varies: Inspiration (Cooperation in the past), Cathedrals (sometimes Churches), Mastery
• Pacifism (Sainthood in the past); should consider Clericalism more.

 

[peterw1987]

Hey, i just want to start this thread too, in deity.

Progress is clearly the culprit here.

Progress is just too weak, especially in deity. Progress biggest plus is just huge early science boost, which i dont think realy needed in early stage. The culture per tech and building maybe appealing. But actually, it is not that huge.

Tradition is way better early. Extra food, culture per turn, pop growth. And that +3 hammer(and GE slot early) really play a huge part in grabbing early wonders, which will help you snowball later.

You will reach 6 pop earlier by tradition, and with that extra 3 hammer, you can produce settler earlier and faster.

I dunno why it took forever to reach 5 or 6 pop by progress. By the time i build my 1st settler, my neighbour already settle forward nearby to my city. And i dont have any good spot left to settle my 3rd and 4th city.

 

[peterw1987]

For starter, your civ pick is clearly not geared toward science victory.

Second, progress is not the best policy for science victory IMO.
You cant afford working specialist, especially in capital, without tradition finisher.
IMO, the best policy branch for science is tradition,piety/aesteticsm,rationalism.
I am not sure why you pick statecraft(especially with civ that UA has nothing to do with city state)

Third, logically,if you aim for science victory, you will focus all your specialist on scientiest. But in VP really, early, culture and engineer specialist is the most important one. Culture so you have enough policy to unlock wonder, and engineer to rush wonder. What for if you unlock the wonder tech, but you cannot built it?

For the religion, i am not sure what all that belief does. But because i am quite often playing for science victory, i should have known that belief if it has anything to do with science victory.

 

[CrazyG]

I've had a lot of difficulty using Progress on higher difficulties, I wasn't sure if that was my playstyle or the tree itself.

I suspect that Rationalism shouldn't be the go-to for progress, and Sainthood doesn't seem to do have much synergy with playing wide. Especially if choosing Statecraft, I would consider other win conditions in addition to science. I've only won a few high level games as Progress, and I went warmonger later on in those. How are your opponents winning? How far are you from spaceship when it happens?

 

[Txurce]

@ peterw1987 and CrazyG:

I only play Science/standard/Communitas/continents because I like how these games develop. I worked my way through Immortal with Authority (Aztecs) and then Tradition (India, Celts, Shoshone) becausee I also don't like to stick to civs like Babylon and Korea. I'm glad to know Progress is the main culprit on higher difficulties, and that Science is particularly hard. I don't really have a problem with this, as it's strong enough on lower ones.

My opponents are winning by science over culture at about a 2:1 rate. My science falls off a cliff if my happiness falls off a cliff in the mid-late game. (I usually bring it back, and sometimes it falls a second time.) The closest I've come is a few SS parts difference.

There are some stronger scientific religious beliefs, but I've avoided them in order to focus on my weaknesses: culture and happiness. I figure the science specialists should be enough. The exception was Sainthood, which is a good science/culture combo (despite the GP not applying to Progress). But I've dropped it due to happiness issues.

I pick Statecraft because having a religion gives me an edge there that I usually turn into WC domination. (And because controlling the WC is fun.) But even so, maybe it's a mistake to go with Statecraft when going for a SV -- especially with Indonesia. Maybe having a religion is enough reason to go with Piety (or Aesthetics, since I suffer from low culture sometimes). Maybe Statecraft along with progress is one handicap too many. And maybe not choosing it will give me the culture I need to stay happy later in the game.

My pop is almost always low, but it doesn't seem to be the reason I lag in science.

 

[ElliotS]

@ peterw1987 and CrazyG:

I only play Science/standard/Communitas/continents because I like how these games develop. I worked my way through Immortal with Authority (Aztecs) and then Tradition (India, Celts, Shoshone) becausee I also don't like to stick to civs like Babylon and Korea. I'm glad to know Progress is the main culprit on higher difficulties, and that Science is particularly hard. I don't really have a problem with this, as it's strong enough on lower ones.

My opponents are winning by science over culture at about a 2:1 rate. My science falls off a cliff if my happiness falls off a cliff in the mid-late game. (I usually bring it back, and sometimes it falls a second time.) The closest I've come is a few SS parts difference.

There are some stronger scientific religious beliefs, but I've avoided them in order to focus on my weaknesses: culture and happiness. I figure the science specialists should be enough. The exception was Sainthood, which is a good science/culture combo (despite the GP not applying to Progress). But I've dropped it due to happiness issues.

I pick Statecraft because having a religion gives me an edge there that I usually turn into WC domination. (And because controlling the WC is fun.) But even so, maybe it's a mistake to go with Statecraft when going for a SV -- especially with Indonesia. Maybe having a religion is enough reason to go with Piety (or Aesthetics, since I suffer from low culture sometimes). Maybe Statecraft along with progress is one handicap too many. And maybe not choosing it will give me the culture I need to stay happy later in the game.

My pop is almost always low, but it doesn't seem to be the reason I lag in science.

Your problem is that you're going in the most obtuse fashion possible. Progress is best suited for diplomatic or late game domination wins, but especially diplomatic.

On the other hand science is best suited towards 4-5 city civs, and progress is best for larger ones.

That's not to say you can't do it. I beat an immortal science progress victory with Maya in November. The thing is that I kept 5 cities, fought hard to get my religion with sainthood into a few civs, beat China up a bit earlier and made them my vassal (securing my borders and giving me tons of benefits across the game) and made other good choices.

Progress's biggest strength imo is the +20% production towards buildings, enabling you to have more buildings in your cities.

As I said the best VC for progress on higher difficulties is diplomatic, followed by domination.

If you're going to choose sub-optimal choices like going for science, you might need to play even more efficiently in other areas or take less handicaps in other areas (because your VC is at odds with your: civ, starting policy tree and playstyle it seems.)

Additionally get one or more vassals. Vassals can provide a TON of benefits over the course of the game, including a LOT of culture and a defensive meatshield. They're an incredibly powerful tool you'd be remiss to ignore.

 

[IcyAngel]

Your happiness "falls off a cliff" with Indonesia? That's surprising. With your monopolies, and your ability to trade for other luxury resources, your happiness should always be very high (unless you're conquering).

Progress grants a lot of early gold, science and unit supply (by going wide). Make use of this to build an early army and invade your neighbors (you can reach key military techs before your opponents because of the science).

 

[Txurce]

Your problem is that you're going in the most obtuse fashion possible. Progress is best suited for diplomatic or late game domination wins, but especially diplomatic.

That's not to say you can't do it. I beat an immortal science progress victory with Maya in November. The thing is that I kept 5 cities, fought hard to get my religion with sainthood into a few civs, beat China up a bit earlier and made them my vassal (securing my borders and giving me tons of benefits across the game) and made other good choices.

Progress's biggest strength imo is the +20% production towards buildings, enabling you to have more buildings in your cities.

If you're going to choose sub-optimal choices like going for science, you might need to play even more efficiently in other areas or take less handicaps in other areas (because your VC is at odds with your: civ, starting policy tree and playstyle it seems.)

Additionally get one or more vassals. Vassals can provide a TON of benefits over the course of the game, including a LOT of culture and a defensive meatshield. They're an incredibly powerful tool you'd be remiss to ignore.

Yeah, it's defintiely obtuse. But I made it work on Emperor, so I took the next challenge. I have used my Kris swordsmen to attack neighbors lately, and I've acquired vassals twice. Definitely helps.

Your happiness "falls off a cliff" with Indonesia? That's surprising. With your monopolies, and your ability to trade for other luxury resources, your happiness should always be very high (unless you're conquering).

Progress grants a lot of early gold, science and unit supply (by going wide). Make use of this to build an early army and invade your neighbors (you can reach key military techs before your opponents because of the science).

I'm surprised about my happiness issues as well... that's why I laid out my build and expansion strategy. But next game I'll take a more focused effort on early warfare. More than 4 Kris swordsmen, anyway.

 

[tu_79]

Science needs people. Tradition gives growth, Progress does not.
You also need a happy empire to benefit from Rationalism. Going Progress I usually miss a lot of wonders. I get the buildings, but it's costly, and the smaller population doesn't help either. I'd say you need to focus on food to keep the pace. The growth monopoly helps, but you need food too.

Another approach to science is through the faith, with jesuits (or is it evangelism?) and a little purchasing. Piety is also a good tree for research (monasteries, University of Sankore, happiness ).

 

[Txurce]

Science needs people. Tradition gives growth, Progress does not.
You also need a happy empire to benefit from Rationalism. Going Progress I usually miss a lot of wonders. I get the buildings, but it's costly, and the smaller population doesn't help either. I'd say you need to focus on food to keep the pace. The growth monopoly helps, but you need food too.

Another approach to science is through the faith, with jesuits (or is it evangelism?) and a little purchasing. Piety is also a good tree for research (monasteries, University of Sankore, happiness ).

I assumed the pop wouldn't be too differett, given number of cities, but the catch is that I don't expand fast enough to make up the difference.

I will try straight Piety in my next game with Indonesia, especially.

 

[peterw1987]

For happiness, as long as you build all the national wonder, i think you cant be in negative happiness.

Unless you are not paying attention to city general unhapiness. Usually my cities will only has crime and impoverished.

 

[peterw1987]

On the other hand science is best suited towards 4-5 city civs, and progress is best for larger ones.

Is it possible to found more than 5 cities in immortal+ peacefully?
Even settling nearby to each city, by the time i found my 5th city, there is no more empty spot on the map.

Thats one factor that make progress weak. Because it is hard to play wide in higher difficulties.

 

[Txurce]

For happiness, as long as you build all the national wonder, i think you cant be in negative happiness. Unless you are not paying attention to city general unhapiness. Usually my cities will only has crime and impoverished.

Is it possible to found more than 5 cities in immortal+ peacefully? Even settling nearby to each city, by the time i found my 5th city, there is no more empty spot on the map. Thats one factor that make progress weak. Because it is hard to play wide in higher difficulties.

Yeah, I buld the NWs, and still end up there later in the game. (Crime and poverty.)

I usually have room to build 5, and then can find other locations offshore (or behind me, if I have a bottleneck and nobody comes too fast.

 

[CrazyG]

Is it possible to found more than 5 cities in immortal+ peacefully?
Even settling nearby to each city, by the time i found my 5th city, there is no more empty spot on the map.

Thats one factor that make progress weak. Because it is hard to play wide in higher difficulties.

National wonders provide happiness only if you take a policy in tradition

 

[peterw1987]

National wonders provide happiness only if you take a policy in tradition

Make tradition even far superior than progress. Progress really need some rework.

 

[CrazyG]

Make tradition even far superior than progress. Progress really need some rework.

Most people on the forum seem to find playing wide with progress or authority much easier than playing tall, so I don't know about that. You shouldn't necessarily be rushing out those national wonders as progress anyways like you would do with tradition. My opinion, you can get too many yields for spamming great people, and that those need to be toned down (Glory of God just got its much needed nerf) because otherwise it just dominates peaceful gameplay too easily.

The big strength of progress is supposed to be the left policies which remain very powerful all game and let you really spam buildings. That's its big niche over Authority, who has far fewer long term benefits and can have difficulty building all the buildings it wants once 6 production becomes less significant. An issue might be that tradition's writer and merchant policy (I forget the names) are really good short and long term.

@Txurce
The amphitheater sounds pretty early, much earlier than I would build it. Maybe try to specialize cities more, particularly with specialists? I usually skip science buildings in some and military buildings in others. I've recently noticed that libraries are really weak unless you use that specialist, so if you don't work him till your pop is bigger I wouldn't research writing till I'm in classical. With Carthage I like to rush the Great Cothon and often try for Colossus. The Great Cothon is all the "late" game Carthage ever gets, so I would try to go into those late eras competitive in population or at least city number.

 

[peterw1987]

Rushing science in early stage is a bad idea.

The most important yield early stage is food,production, and culture.

 

[Owlbebach]

Being new to this forum i was developing my strategies on my own and i strongly disagree with what you think about progress (one more funny thing is that i was sure that Aztec is crap, while everyone here think it is very strong) . I've won scientific victory multiple time on immortal with progress and i found progress strong enough. Besides production and sciense in every city progress gives you MUCH more culture than tradition in total, it just take more time to speed up.

Here is how i play:
shrine first, then scout or monument (or both if you start on forest). Take pottery second tech and when you city has ~3 pop (maybe 4 if lucky) - start ~3 settlers in a row. In first 3 cities start shrine (i usually invest to get religion), than monument/council. After each city has 3 pop - start settler in non-capital cities (yes 4 settler in 4 cities at the same time). Also all cities exept capital should stay on 3 population (avoid growth) until you have enough happiness. After settlers you build worker in every city. With this you will end with 8-9 cities before 100th turn (while AIs have only 4!) and here is where progress is cool - with +2 gold/+2hamm in every city they build things quite good and do not suffer from povetry. Grow your cities manually when you have happiness to afford it. Forget everything and focus on production first and culture second. I usually build well/watermill and forge asap then monument and council. And also do not build roads until you have 2 unhappiness from isolation! Roads are crap, they cost more money than they provide, also precious time of your workers is lost!

 

[tu_79]

Being new to this forum i was developing my strategies on my own and i strongly disagree with what you think about progress (one more funny thing is that i was sure that Aztec is crap, while everyone here think it is very strong) . I've won scientific victory multiple time on immortal with progress and i found progress strong enough. Besides production and sciense in every city progress gives you MUCH more culture than tradition in total, it just take more time to speed up.

Here is how i play:
shrine first, then scout or monument (or both if you start on forest). Take pottery second tech and when you city has ~3 pop (maybe 4 if lucky) - start ~3 settlers in a row. In first 3 cities start shrine (i usually invest to get religion), than monument/council. After each city has 3 pop - start settler in non-capital cities (yes 4 settler in 4 cities at the same time). Also all cities exept capital should stay on 3 population (avoid growth) until you have enough happiness. After settlers you build worker in every city. With this you will end with 8-9 cities before 100th turn (while AIs have only 4!) and here is where progress is cool - with +2 gold/+2hamm in every city they build things quite good and do not suffer from povetry. Grow your cities manually when you have happiness to afford it. Forget everything and focus on production first and culture second. I usually build well/watermill and forge asap then monument and council. And also do not build roads until you have 2 unhappiness from isolation! Roads are crap, they cost more money than they provide, also precious time of your workers is lost!

I did this twice, and I got my research progress completely bogged down. Then, some civ attacked me with much better units and I rage quitted. The second time was with Shoshone, and it looked like I was able to endure, but in the end I was too backwards. Playing Tradition I almost always get a victory in my difficulty level. With Authority too, but it sometimes doesn't work well when the terrain is too rough.

 

[peterw1987]

I think tu_79 and crazyg is quite veteran here. And they both agree that progress will make you fall behind others.tradition is always ensure faster growth and snowball hard later. Producing settler with progress 4 pop gonna take forever(progress has no extra hammer or food yield early), while tradition has +3 hammer from royal guardhouse,and another 3 from specialist slot(plus another hammer bonus from converted food yield you got from policy). The biggest part in tradition early is, you can get great engineer early to grab 1 wonder which matters alot.
While, goodluck trying to get wonders picking progress. I dont think you will get any ancient and classical wonders, unless you have insanely good start, and sacrificing many aspects.



But with increase building cost in latest patch, i expect that 20% building cost discount will play a bigger part now.