Progress on Immortal

[Owlbebach]

I did this twice, and I got my research progress completely bogged down. Then, some civ attacked me with much better units and I rage quitted. The second time was with Shoshone, and it looked like I was able to endure, but in the end I was too backwards. Playing Tradition I almost always get a victory in my difficulty level. With Authority too, but it sometimes doesn't work well when the terrain is too rough.

Sounds strange... i play with my friend and if one of us foes tradition and other one goes progress - progress player usually have ~two times more sciense than tradition player in middle age (something like 60-70 vs 110-120 per turn)... 3 science per city for free is a lot!

What is you order of taking policies? Cause the only right one is worker->+2hamm/+2gold->10cult/10food->+3food/+3science->20% hammers. Thats not obvious first times, 20% hammers is very attracting, but in fact it gives you nothing in the beginning

 

[Owlbebach]

I think tu_79 and crazyg is quite veteran here. And they both agree that progress will make you fall behind others.tradition is always ensure faster growth and snowball hard later. Producing settler with progress 4 pop gonna take forever(progress has no extra hammer or food yield early), while tradition has +3 hammer from royal guardhouse,and another 3 from specialist slot(plus another hammer bonus from converted food yield you got from policy). The biggest part in tradition early is, you can get great engineer early to grab 1 wonder which matters alot.
While, goodluck trying to get wonders picking progress. I dont think you will get any ancient and classical wonders, unless you have insanely good start, and sacrificing many aspects.

But with increase building cost in latest patch, i expect that 20% building cost discount will play a bigger part now.

Well i usually take one wonder with progress on immortal. But if i don't - that's not a problem at all, you'll take your wonders later! You will be behind in policies until renaissance at least, more likely until industrial, thats true. But the thing with progress is that it becomes better and better with time

 

[peterw1987]

I

Sounds strange... i play with my friend and if one of us foes tradition and other one goes progress - progress player usually have ~two times more sciense than tradition player in middle age (something like 60-70 vs 110-120 per turn)... 3 science per city for free is a lot!

What is you order of taking policies? Cause the only right one is worker->+2hamm/+2gold->10cult/10food->+3food/+3science->20% hammers. Thats not obvious first times, 20% hammers is very attracting, but in fact it gives you nothing in the beginning

if you duel with your friend, and there are a lot of empty space to claim,science progress is definitely better. But that is not the case against immortal+ AI.

And if you are not lucky with culture ruin or city state, you will never reach that 3rd policy-extra 2 hammer and gold(unless you are ethiopia or has culture tile early)

 

[Owlbebach]

I

if you duel with your friend, and there are a lot of empty space to claim,science progress is definitely better. But that is not the case against immortal+ AI.

And if you are not lucky with culture ruin or city state, you will never reach that 3rd policy-extra 2 hammer and gold(unless you are ethiopia or has culture tile early)

Did i said duel? (no i didn't). I play huge pangea with 14 AIs and 2 humans. And i play without ruins at all.

 

[tu_79]

Did i said duel? (no i didn't). I play huge pangea with 14 AIs and 2 humans. And i play without ruins at all.

Funak, who is more veteran than any of us, assures that with the correct civ Progress is fine, but you need some early culture generation (provided by your uniques or some luck with the start). After that, it has better time fulfilling CS missions, thanks to being closer to them and exploring farther. Once CS bonuses are plenty, you can step forward.

Also, don't mistake total science with tech progress. Cost is increased per city, and Tradition players can 'jump' several times with their extra Great Scientists.

 

[Workerspam]

Funak, who is more veteran than any of us, assures that with the correct civ Progress is fine, but you need some early culture generation.

This. So much this. I've had a lot of success with Progress on Immortal in the last month, first with the Shoshone and then with the Inca (full disclosure: never actually completed a game; CTD between turns 300-350 on several games, new patches on others). But only if I have early culture. You have to get that +2 prod/+2 gold policy ASAP and you really don't want to wait too long on the other two (20% production being last). Playing on Planet Simulator Standard maps with 8 civs I regularly got to 8-12+ cities by Medieval and top 2 in most categories by Renaissance, normally with a decent share of wonders.

Shoshone and Inca both have fairly early UIs that provide culture; that helps. Just as big is grabbing a pantheon that grants culture; Ancestor Worship was my regular go to, but the culture/faith on mountains, tundra, luxuries, and all creation among others can all work in the right circumstances. Only time I risked a pantheon with no culture was if I had another good source of culture available (luxury, natural wonder, being the Shoshone, etc). Doesn't matter if you have the perfect set-up for Spirit of the Desert; if you don't have the culture to supplement it and you go Progress, you're gonna have a bad time.

After that it's expand rapidly, tons of workers, internal trade routes (I prefer production), all the cheap buildings in all your cities, city connections ready upon unlocking that policy, and (early on) specialize your cities: markets and barracks in some, libraries and writers guilds in others.

I almost always grabbed a growth follower belief as well (Mandirs or the food one) but that may be more a personal choice. I love big cities and working specialists, even when I don't go Tradition. I actually had 3 games where I grabbed the shrines/wells/growth pantheon on maps where my starting point was utterly void of rivers.

 

[Starrynite120]

What about Rome with progress? Their UB has some good culture, as well as production, both very valuable yields. Just wondering if any people find them good in the context of this thread.

 

[Owlbebach]

What about Rome with progress? Their UB has some good culture, as well as production, both very valuable yields. Just wondering if any people find them good in the context of this thread.

Didn't try it tbh, but seems to be very good

 

[CrazyG]

I think tu_79 and crazyg is quite veteran here. And they both agree that progress will make you fall behind others.tradition is always ensure faster growth and snowball hard later. Producing settler with progress 4 pop gonna take forever(progress has no extra hammer or food yield early), while tradition has +3 hammer from royal guardhouse,and another 3 from specialist slot(plus another hammer bonus from converted food yield you got from policy). The biggest part in tradition early is, you can get great engineer early to grab 1 wonder which matters alot.
While, goodluck trying to get wonders picking progress. I dont think you will get any ancient and classical wonders, unless you have insanely good start, and sacrificing many aspects.

I am far less veteran than some of the players around here. I wouldn't say progress is weak, it just doesn't fit my style, or maybe I haven't found the right way to use it. I have had some really succesful games (Rome and Carthage come to mind) but early game weakness just seems like a big problem. That might be my playstyle though, I don't carefor other long term options like God King either.

 

[Starrynite120]

I am far less veteran than some of the players around here. I wouldn't say progress is weak, it just doesn't fit my style, or maybe I haven't found the right way to use it. I have had some really succesful games (Rome and Carthage come to mind) but early game weakness just seems like a big problem. That might be my playstyle though, I don't carefor other long term options like God King either.

I think progress just doesn't really shine until you have a wide empire and are really churning out buildings and having cities grow often. The instant boosts become really strong then. So I feel Tradition has a much stronger start and therefore looks better and has a more consistent game. Progress on the other hand has a fairly weak start, but I think the benefits come to be better than tradition in the late game. Its like the difference between a racecar and a truck. A racecar speeds up faster, while a truck takes longer but carries more momentum and is harder to stop.

 

[peterw1987]

But only if I have early culture. You have to get that +2 prod/+2 gold policy ASAP and you really don't want to wait too long on the other two (20% production being last)

Thats what i mean. If you dont get early culture however(from friendly cultured city state or luxuries), by the time you reach that 3rd policy, you are left behind too far that it is almost impossible to catchup.

If you dont get the left side(+10 culture food per building), your only culture source is 20 per tech researched.

I once play ethiopia, and progress is okay on them because stele has extra culture.

 

[ElliotS]

I think that unless you've got abundant culture from somewhere else, getting the first policy on the left is imperative if you play progress. If you allow yourself to fall behind on culture don't blame the tree, blame yourself.

I will cede however that the layout makes it a bit awkward and delays other important stuff. Progress is supposed to be the weakest branch early, so it's hard to measure it's worth overall compared to the front heavy authority and the apples and oranges tradition.

If you claim it's terrible or recommend more than a tiny buff though, I'd disagree very hard. Progress is still very viable and even optimal in many situations, if not maybe ~5% weaker than the other trees.

 

[CrazyG]

I think that unless you've got abundant culture from somewhere else, getting the first policy on the left is imperative if you play progress. If you allow yourself to fall behind on culture don't blame the tree, blame yourself.

I will cede however that the layout makes it a bit awkward and delays other important stuff. Progress is supposed to be the weakest branch early, so it's hard to measure it's worth overall compared to the front heavy authority and the apples and oranges tradition.

If you claim it's terrible or recommend more than a tiny buff though, I'd disagree very hard. Progress is still very viable and even optimal in many situations, if not maybe ~5% weaker than the other trees.

That left policy just seems so bad to me compared to tradition. I guess I just don't see the appeal in an ancient era policy tree which isn't strong during ancient/classical era, getting that left policy first just seems so bad compared to tradition's opener. The right 3 policies to me are the reason progress is any good at all.

 

[ElliotS]

That left policy just seems so bad to me compared to tradition. I guess I just don't see the appeal in an ancient era policy tree which isn't strong during ancient/classical era, getting that left policy first just seems so bad compared to tradition's opener. The right 3 policies to me are the reason progress is any good at all.

Yeah, but if you go the right three it will take you FOREVER to get the fourth policy without some other culture steroid. It's the biggest weakness of the tree.

 

[Txurce]

Yeah, but if you go the right three it will take you FOREVER to get the fourth policy without some other culture steroid. It's the biggest weakness of the tree.

I tend to go with the free worker followed by the two on the left, unless my resources are seafood. (Then I save the worker.)

The amphitheater sounds pretty early, much earlier than I would build it. Maybe try to specialize cities more, particularly with specialists? I usually skip science buildings in some and military buildings in others. I've recently noticed that libraries are really weak unless you use that specialist, so if you don't work him till your pop is bigger I wouldn't research writing till I'm in classical. With Carthage I like to rush the Great Cothon and often try for Colossus. The Great Cothon is all the "late" game Carthage ever gets, so I would try to go into those late eras competitive in population or at least city number.

I fit in the amphitheater if I can, only because I've been so weirdly culture-shy. In my current game, I've done some specialization -- basically a military city -- and it worked out well. Holding off on Writing in most cases may be a good idea, and I've already been doing that to a degree. I already hold off building them until I can put a specialist in them.

City number is my biggest issue, second only to that strange happiness plunge. I started a new game with Indonesia, and found myself alone on a small continent with only 4 iron. I built 5 cities, and prepared for war with China, who built two island cities behind me. That naval war was fast and easy, putting me at 7 cities. later came a longer one against China, going for 2 major cities on her continent -- again a naval battle, with the Kris playing defense against her counterattacks. This ended in my taking two major cities (7 iron), and making her my vassal.

At this point (close to 200 turns), I had 9 cities, crazy happiness, the lead in science, and Friendship with Assyria (strong) and India (weak). This was with Progress and Piety (heading toward Rationalism and Freedom). I also got a religion: Festivals/Transcendence (pre-Classical, Mastery, Inspiration, and Evangelism (mistake). I was surrounded by religions (everyone but India!), so I focused on what would help my cities.

Unfortunately, the Aztecs were about 20 turns from conquering their entire continent: 3 civs! So what to do about the ultimate runaway? Assyria suggested a war earlier, but I was still busy with China. By the time China capitulated, Assyria had denounced me for religious reasons, and war was brewing. I struck first, taking a strategic island near my coast, and then settled into a brutal 50-turn naval war, where my tech and promotions incrementally ground down his numbers. So how was Indonesia doing , halfway through Rationalism?

Bottoming out at -50 unhappiness.

Part of this has to do with the reduced number of civs, but I lost a net 80 or so points. I was sick of the game when I began to get a handle on the unhappiness, reducing it to -30 or so, as the war improved. Finally I made peace with Assyria on favorable terms, exchanged a bunch of luxuries, and found myself still #1 in science on turn 287.

Unfortunately, the Aztecs chose what I did with them -- Authority/Statecraft/Rationalism -- and are aiming for a diplo victory if domination doesn't come first. I'm not sure whether they can be stopped. It makes me think fondly of my usual control of the WC... and yet I know Piety is the main difference in wy I'm leading in Science.

I think the safe thing to say is that Progress isn't easy on Immortal. (To be continued.)

 

[CrazyG]

I tend to go with the free worker followed by the two on the left, unless my resources are seafood. (Then I save the worker.)

Shouldn't the +20% for buildings usually go last? Meritocracy ought to be better early on, you would need a 10 hammer city to get more from the other policy, and even then meritocracy provides gold and applies to units as well.

Interesting game, what kind of unhappiness are you facing? Your religion is interesting, very different than what I would choose, do you feel it performs well? It also occurs to me that Order may be worth considering over freedom.

 

[Txurce]

Shouldn't the +20% for buildings usually go last? Meritocracy ought to be better early on, you would need a 10 hammer city to get more from the other policy, and even then meritocracy provides gold and applies to units as well.

Interesting game, what kind of unhappiness are you facing? Your religion is interesting, very different than what I would choose, do you feel it performs well? It also occurs to me that Order may be worth considering over freedom.

I pick between Expertise and Equality, based on the capital's size. But I usually pick Fraternity last unless I'm Carthage, because my cities aren't connected.

I took Transcendence because I got it at max value, and doubted I'd spread my religion much beyond my own civ. Inspiration is there for culture, and Mastery ought to help an all-around game like Science, right? It all seemed good, given that I was ahead in science and policies. Evangelism was an error.

Is Order better for science when going wide than Freedom?

Not that it matters in this game... My unhappiness peaked at around 13 after the 2 positive Freedom policies, then dropped to -7 as soon as the Aztecs took Autocracy. I knew where that was heading -- more misery plus war -- so I switched to Autocracy, and bounced back to +21 after collecting 3 new policies. Montezuma declared war 2 turns later anyway, but my happiness stayed at +9... but now I'm just behind the Aztecs in science (and of course they swamp me in size and military). Since Montezuma has no reason to make peace, my only hope may be to beat him to the Bomb. Yech.

EDIT: The Aztecs won a cultural victory on turn 304. They were also en route to a DV, had caught me in science, and actually might have eventually won a Domination victory.

 

[CrazyG]

I pick between Expertise and Equality, based on the capital's size. But I usually pick Fraternity last unless I'm Carthage, because my cities aren't connected.

I took Transcendence because I got it at max value, and doubted I'd spread my religion much beyond my own civ. Inspiration is there for culture, and Mastery ought to help an all-around game like Science, right? It all seemed good, given that I was ahead in science and policies. Evangelism was an error.

Is Order better for science when going wide than Freedom?

Not that it matters in this game... My unhappiness peaked at around 13 after the 2 positive Freedom policies, then dropped to -7 as soon as the Aztecs took Autocracy. I knew where that was heading -- more misery plus war -- so I switched to Autocracy, and bounced back to +21 after collecting 3 new policies. Montezuma declared war 2 turns later anyway, but my happiness stayed at +9... but now I'm just behind the Aztecs in science (and of course they swamp me in size and military). Since Montezuma has no reason to make peace, my only hope may be to beat him to the Bomb. Yech.

EDIT: The Aztecs won a cultural victory on turn 304. They were also en route to a DV, had caught me in science, and actually might have eventually won a Domination victory.

I know that Order has a policy for 2 free techs and another for a free great scientist and engineer, which seemed useful for your scenario. Probably depends how focused you were on specialists

 

[peterw1987]

Freedom is more to great person and specialist.

The only science thing about it is able to buy spaceship part with gold.

 

[Txurce]

I know that Order has a policy for 2 free techs and another for a free great scientist and engineer, which seemed useful for your scenario. Probably depends how focused you were on specialists

Freedom is more to great person and specialist. The only science thing about it is able to buy spaceship part with gold.

I'm very focused on specialists, because that's how I generate science and culture. This comes from having played only tall on vanilla, and mostly tall on VP (until I began trying to win a SV with all 3 policy starts on Emperor and then Immortal). Would you go at it differently in going after a SV with progress?

Analyzing my last game, and putting aside the Aztecs' freakish size, I realized that my really bad unhappiness comes from islands, even when they have most gold and deense buildings. This game I will try building all those buildings as they come, and fill in later with the rest. The advantage of islands with Indonesia is the luxuries, anyway.