Proposal: Realistic religions mod. COMMENTS NEEDED.

[abbamouse]

Edit November 17: I posted the finished (beta) mod in the file forums. Please post any questions or comments there, since I won't be following this thread any more (many of the discussions are no longer relevant due to changes I've made in the mod).

I understand the sensitivity that led Firaxis to make every faith the same, but in some ways treating all religions as identical (as opposed to equal) is insensitive. Should Muslims and Jews really have to watch as a civilization of "their" faith eats pigs? There has to be some way of making religion a bit more historically accurate without slandering anyone. Here are a few sensible ground rules for the mod I'm trying to design:

1. For every limit or disadvantage, there needs to be an equally useful advantage. No religion should be any "better" to play that any other.

2. In general, people should not have to be offended by the portrayal of their own religion. Now that doesn't mean nobody can be offended (some will take offense at how positively another faith is portrayed), but it means that Hindus ought to be OK with Hinduism, Christians with Christianity, etc.

3. Some weight should be given to history, but we should avoid portraying some religions as "peaceful" and others as "warlike." I study civil wars for a living and I can point to plenty of bitter internecine struggles within each and every one of these faiths.

4. There ought to be something different about each religion in the game, so that they aren't completely homogenized but retain a postive character of their own.

5. The game shouldn't express an opinion about whether the teachings of a religion are correct or not, i.e. by trying to model redemption, reincarnation, nirvana, etc. The point is to model the outward features of a religion, observable even by those who don't agree with the faith.

Now without further ado, here's the mod's current status:

1. Confucianism is replaced by Zoroastrianism. Confucianism is much more of a philosophy of ethics than a theology per se, so I've replaced it with the immensely influential Zoroastrianism. This is the faith that pioneered a dualistic monotheism, and it influenced nearly every other major world religion. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the faith, which was once that state religion of the sprawling Persian Empire, but is now limited to a few hundred thousand to a few million adherents. For now, their Cathedrals are Fire Temples and their Shrine is Adur Burzen-Mihr, their holiest fire.

I'm using the buttons and skin for the Fire Temple from the Greek World mod on the CD, but I lack a graphic for the Zoroastrian Temple and the button still looks like Confucianism on the city labels. I can deal with the Confucian Missionary graphic, since Zoroastrianism did indeed breifly spread to parts of China. Oh , the symbol used in the game is called the faravahar.

2. Renamed Missionary units. What would we call someone who went into an area where a faith was not established and started teaching others? In some faiths, there are words for those who are spreading the faith to those who don't know it. Other religions have special words for teachers of the faith.

Christianity = Missionary
Islam = Imam
Hinduism = Swami
Taoism = Sage
Zoroastrianism = Magi (should this be Magus? I don't know if Magi is both singular and plural)
Buddhism = Acariya
Judaism = Rabbi (BUT cannot be constructed; see below)

3. Added advantages and disadvantages to each religion. These generally involve spread speed, missionary units, and adding effects to Temples to change how resources affect a civ.

Judaism
Disadvantages: No benefit from Pigs, Crabs, and Clams: Jewish Temples produce 1 unhappy face for each of these resources. Cannot build Jewish Missionaries (it's just not a missionary faith).
Advantages: (unleavened) Wheat, (kosher) Cows, and (gefilte) Fish produce an extra health in cities with Jewish Temples. Much faster rate of spread (There may not be missionaries, but there is a diaspora, and this helps simulate that.) Spread rate = 50 instead of 100, which is really quite a bump. I think it means the chance of spread is doubled. Actually it seems to spread out of control in my playtests so I 'd like to figure out the formula for spread chance.

Islam
Disadvantage: No benefit from Pigs and Wine: Pigs produce -1 health and Wine produces -1 happiness in cities with Islamic Temples. I also removed the free missionary unit (Imam) because of the advantageous spread rate I gave Islam. Finally, Islam's ban on usury leads to a small amount of economic inefficiency: -15% trade route income in cities with Islamic Temples.
Advantage: Extra health from (halal) Cows and Sheep in cities with Islamic Temples. Increased spread rate (Islam spread incredibly quickly after its founding): Right now I have it set to 133, which is a major boost from the default of 100. Holy City produces extra three commerce (to simulate the hajj).

Hinduism
Disadvantage: Cows produce -1 food in cities with Hindu Temples.
Advantage: Cows produce +1 happiness in cities with Hindu Temples.

Zoroastrianism
I can think of many ideas for advantages, but few for disadvantages. Offerings of fragrant woods like sandalwood or incense are sometimes made in the Fire Temples, so perhaps incense could generate extra happiness. There are no specific dietary rules for this faith.
Disadvantage: Keeping an eternal flame lit is expensive in the ancient world. Zoroastrian Temples and Fire Temples cost 20% more than other faiths' Temples.
Advantage: To represent its influence on culture and faith, Zoroastrianism adds culture to a city even when it is not the state religion. Fire Temples increase cultural output by 60% instead of 50%.

Taoism
Taoism is in many ways an anti-state belief system, focused on the individual. Of course, it could be promoted by the state like any other faith, but it often coexisted uneasily with beliefs about proper social roles (such as Confucian philosophy). Moreover, Taoist beliefs were often kept secret by families and small shrines might be hidden from the authorities.
Disadvantage: Because the faith is anti-state, it becomes harder to mobilize people for state efforts. Right now, this means that each city with a Taoist Temple experiences +10% war weariness. This helps to keep the faith from becoming a warmonger's religion, given the advantage below. In addition, Taoist Cathedrals do not generate extra happy faces if Taoism is the state religion.
Advantage: Taoist Temples (but not other buildings) survive capture of a city, unlike any other religion's Temples. In addition, they make the period of anarchy following a city's capture twice as long as it would otherwise be. It's hard for the state to use Taoism to generate compliance. Finally, Taoist Cathedrals generate one happy face, regardless of the state religion.

Christianity
The most striking feature of Christianity is its missionary nature.
Disadvantage: -75% spread rate (I think: I set it to 25 instead of 100, which I think reduces the chance by a factor of 4 = 25% of originial chance)
Advantage: Christian Temples allow Missionary building, Missionaries are 50% cheaper, and a player may have up to 10 Missionaries at once instead of 3.

Buddhism
Disadvantage: Buddhism spreads slowly, except for periods when Missionaries (Acariya) are built (Example = Rule of Ashoka's Mauryan Empire in India): Slower spread rate (70 instead of 100, which seems to be around 25% less spread).
Advantage: The image of the "laughing Buddha" is designed to remind believers of the path to happiness. Buddhist Temples produce + 1 happy face for Stone and Marble (think of the giant carved Buddhas in Afghanistan that were destroyed by the Taliban).

EDIT: This is rapidly approaching beta status. I'll post a new thread when I actually release it. In the meanwhile, what advantages and disadvantages should I give Taoism and Zoroastrianism, and is there a way to implement Islamic banking (which eliminates usury at the price of some economic inefficiency)?

 

[obv]

hello
sorry but my english is very bad

your mod can you translate to spanish?

thanks

i am interested in your mod

bye

 

[Plankhead]

You know, speaking of religion, the Spanish always seem to be Jewish in every game I play. I wonder how the Inquisition worked.

Well, anyway, some comments. I think another disadvantage for Jews would be restrictions on missionary activity, as we don't really condone evangelism. But maybe Jewish civs would get Code of Laws free? The ten commandments kind of help.

Not sure what I can do for the others, as I have little experience in practicing any of the other faiths myself.

 

[Dr. Broom]

Islam should come earlier since it is a pretty old religion. More than all the other faiths Islam and Christianity seem to have an intolerance for other religions so they should have a diplomatic penalty with other religions but to tie in another advantage they should be able to go on Jihads/Crusades.

There should also be a way to convert other religions to your religion instead of just adding yours to theirs.

Tying some religions in with some civics would be a good idea so maybe if you are Buddhist you get some sort of bonus if you have the pacifism civic while you get a bonus if you are Islam and have the theocracy civic.

It also seems very unrealistic that the most scientific civilization has the best chance of discovering new religions so if a system could be set up where a civilization with a lot of culture can found a religion it would seem more realistic.

Holy cities were always a big deal to people so if you have say the Christian holy city and are Taoist then you get a substancial diplomatic penalty with all Christian nations, they don't like their holy city in the hands of heathens.

 

[Red Door]

Islam's not that old came in 600's A.D.
To compare others
Christianity-7 A.D.
Judaism-2000 B.C.
Taoism-350 B.C.
Confucionism (NOT A RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!) 500 B.C.
Hinduism-Early Signs of it were in 6000 B.C.
Buddhism-3000 B.C.
Islam and Christianity come pretty late in that span.

 

[Madrone]

I know very little about Hinduism, however instead of making cows have little advantages, have them have none food related benefits.

 

[wilcoxchar]

um, when Islam was founded, it was very tolerant of Jews and Christians who were already living in places like Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Mecca. It was only after the crusades (I think) that Islam became intolerant of other religions.

 

[ejdacanay]

I understand the sensitivity that led Firaxis to make every faith the same, but in some ways treating all religions as identical (as opposed to equal) is insensitive. Should Muslims and Jews really have to watch as a civilization of "their" faith eats pigs? There has to be some way of making religion a bit more historically accurate without slandering anyone. Here are a few sensible ground rules for the mod I'm trying to design:

1. For every limit or disadvantage, there needs to be an equally useful advantage. No religion should be any "better" to play that any other.

2. In general, people should not have to be offended by the portrayal of their own religion. Now that doesn't mean nobody can be offended (some will take offense at how positively another faith is portrayed), but it means that Hindus ought to be OK with Hinduism, Christians with Christianity, etc.

3. Some weight should be given to history, but we should avoid portraying some religions as "peaceful" and others as "warlike." I study civil wars for a living and I can point to plenty of bitter internecine struggles within each and every one of these faiths.

4. There ought to be something different about each religion in the game, so that they aren't completely homogenized but retain a postive character of their own.

5. The game shouldn't express an opinion about whether the teachings of a religion are correct or not, i.e. by trying to model redemption, reincarnation, nirvana, etc. The point is to model the outward features of a religion, observable even by those who don't agree with the faith.

Now let's see if it's possible to meet these guidelines and produce something fun to play. Here's my preliminary thoughts on each religion. Each one needs an advantage and a disadvantage. I present them in no particular order:

Judaism
Disadvantage: Reduced (or no) benefit from Pigs, Crabs, and Clams. (Anything else I'm missing?)
Advantage: What would more or less balance this disadvantage? To avoid negative stereotypes, we need to avoid financial benefits. However, health benefits from something else might work. Would anything be a particularly good fit with the faith? I was wondering if wheat might produce an extra health, for example. Possibly, the same could be done with Cows, since Kosher rules tend to keep things more sanitary (especially before modern sanitation).

Islam
Disadvantage: Reduced (or no) benefit from Pigs and Wine.
Advantage: I suppose we could do something with halal Cows and Sheep like provide extra health with one and commerce with the other. I wonder if the explicit tolerance of Islam for Judaism and Christianity might translate into spreading more easily into cities that already have these faiths, or vice versa. Another idea would be cheaper missionaries, since along with Christianity, Islam has emphasized a duty to convert others (albeit, not necessarily "people of the book").

Hinduism
Disadvantage: Reduced (or no) benefit from Cows. At least, there shouldn't be a food benefit.
Advantage: Is there someting faith-appropriate here? It's easy to come up with something that works from a game balance perspective, but harder for me (who is largely ignorant of the faith) to some up with something ties to the faith. I know incense often plays a major ceremonial role, but I'm not sure if a boost to its benefits would be enough to balance the disadvantage.

Taoism and Confucianism
I know little about Taoism and Confucianism, but the two are often seen as political opposites: Confucianism emphasizing proper social obligations under hierarchy and Taoism emphasizing an individual's. I was thining that governing under some autocratic systems ought to be harder with Taoism and easier with Confucianism. I'm not really sure what the corresponding penalty (for Confucianism) or bonus (for Taoism) ought to be, but I'd like the game to emphasize the tension between the teachings of Lao Tze and Confucius, since it forces you to pick one or the other -- but not both -- as your state religion (even though many if not most believers think that each has something valuable to say). One idea would be for traditional non-happiness resources like rice to provide a little happiness for Taoists, in order to represent its emphasis on contentment with having enough, rather than striving for perfection.

Christianity
The most striking feature of Christianity is its missionary nature, something it shares with Islam. Since both of these faiths come later in the game, perhaps they could get somewhat cheaper missionaries as compensation.
Disadvantage: Comes late. Perhaps it could be moved even later in the tech tree. Is this really much of a disadvantage, though? I worry that once we get late into the game, everyone ends up adopting Free Religion anyway.
Advantage: Cheaper missionaries.

Buddhism
Buddhism is divided into dramatically different schools of thought, even moreso than Christianity or Islam. I wonder if this fact could be used in the game. As with Taoism and Confucianism, Buddhism doesn't exclude these other teachings. One web site says:
In T'ang times, Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism became known as the Three Doctrines, or the "Three Teachings". In T'ang times, a man might honor his ancestors by following the rigid rules of social behavior as dictated by Confucianism, attend a Buddhist pageant, and practice Taoist breathing exercises, all in the same day. These three doctrines were an important part of daily life.
Disadvantage: More difficult to resist encroachment by other faiths?
Advantage: Hmm. The "laughing Buddha" is designed to remind believers of the path to happiness. Maybe Stone or Marble could provide happiness (think of the giant carved Buddhas in Afghanistan that were destroyed by the Taliban).

Any constructive thoughts? I'm especially interested in hearing from believers of each religion what they think of this discussion (see guideline # 2 above). I want to design something more realistic, more sensitive, and MORE FUN to play before I actually make a beta version of the mod.

VERY nice suggestions, a suggestion is that earlier religions should be harder to convert

btw, the earliest iv researched theology is 670 AD XD

 

[abbamouse]

Some of these suggestions would be hard to implement without the SDK, but they're interesting nonetheless. I'm reluctant to use free tech as an advantage since once you've discovered the tech the religion becomes worthless -- so a strategic player would grab the tech, then convert to another religion (if they had founded two). I'll edit the original post tomorrow, after more people have had the chance to post.

Oh, I don't know any language other than English, so someone else would have to do any translation. Of course, less of that is necessary in Civ IV since the Civilopedia is so half-as...erm, simplified.

 

[stargatefan]

how's this:

Hinduism:

adv: workers work 25% faster (50% with caste system), stacks with indian fast worker
dis: religious buildings/missionaries build 25% slower

Buddism:

adv: +1 additional in all cities with Buddism
dis: additional war weariness penalty

Confuscionism

adv: +10% research in all cities with confucionism
dis: workers works 25% slower

Judaism

adv: +1 health in all cities with Judaism
dis: additional diplomatic penalties with any civ who's state religion isn't Judiaism, Islam, or Christianity (including free religion civs)

Taoism

adv: effects of great people placed in cities are increased by 25% in cities with Taoism
dis: missionaries cost double

Christianity

adv: +1 commerce from all resources that normally produce commerce
dis: -10% research in all christian cities

Islam

adv: all new military units built in Islamic cities get 2 addl exp
dis: additional diplomatic penalties to all civs who are not Islamic

 

[ShroudedMist]

At some point you need to take the gloves off and simply implement some uniqueness to each religion. It is one thing to have the expectation that all religions should be balanced such that no one religion, unless it is maybe one of the very first ones founded versus the last few, is superior to the others. It is quite another thing to once again take the standpoint that Firaxis chose to as far as not wanting to insult anyone of a specific religion. That is simply going right down the same road Firaxis did initially and needlessly shackles your hands from a design standpoint. It made good sense for the company producing the game but isn't all that necessary for the modding community.

Judaism was found at the crossroads of civilization so maybe you give them trade bonuses.

Mesopotamia was the area where many key inventions were discovered so maybe you give them science bonuses.

The Crusades were perpetrated by Christians so maybe they get military bonuses or something.

We're talking about a game where the main point is to destroy other civilizations after all. If people are going to get offended over some religion mod then they should think more about the game as a whole itself. Yes, the bonuses shouldn't be so outrageously offensive that it's obvious they're designed to offend. However, a good religion mod is going to address the homogenous nature of religions as they currently stand and give them some flavor.

Let's face it. You make a religion worshipping cats and someone somewhere is going to get offended.

 

[TheBladeRoden]

Aww, so whatever mod we make, we can't have Judaism getting +10 gold?

 

[erikg88]

I do feel ignorant offering up this suggestion, but I'll go ahead anyways because I'm always up to learn something.

Would it be offensive to give Judaism a commerce bonus with precious metals and such? I'm no historian, but I thought the Jews were (very successful) bankers back in the day - would a Jewish person be offended if they got +3 commerce from a gold tile?

 

[ritterpa]

Islam definitely needs to tie in something with theocracy (sharia'h being central to the faith)--either as a disadvantage (ex. a particular advantage only taking place if using the theocracy civic) or an advantage (ex. lower corruption if using theocracy or all cities receiving a free temple benefit if using theocracy).

Judaism needs to have a big penalty spreading outside of the empire--maybe missionaries have to "work" for 3 turns to attempt to spread a religion instead of it being instantaneous (not sure if that is possible to mod). To make up for it, I do like the idea of health benefits.

Karma exists in both Indian religions--Buddhism and Hinduism--so perhaps that can be incorporated. I'd think citizens would be less likely to do something that they feel would lower their karma and end their lives, as they feel they are reincarnated instead of sent to eternal happiness. So many would be reluctant to kill and die in combat after killing. Maybe increased war weariness or longer military unit production time, or a max on the number of military units as a disadvantage?

 

[Martinus]

I don't know about some of the changes you proposed, but it would be very easy to mod if you just limited yourself to a few values. The thing is, the religions file comes with those moddable values are set, just equal for all religions (so kudos to Firaxis, as they basically made all religions equal, but it is not hard coded).

These values are:
- spread speed (so you can have some religions spread faster than others),
- culture, science and commerce modifiers for the holy city
- culture, science and commerce modifiers for any city with that religion
- culture, science and commerce modifiers for any city with that religion, when this is also a state religion.

I think this is enough to give us a first "realistic religions" mod.

 

[Gufnork]

Judaism should not get a commerce bonus, Christianity should not get any bonuses from banks, however. The reason jews were successful bankers was because it was forbidden for christians to make money from money, effectively giving the jews a monopoly.

I suggest making the monotheistic religions more intolerant to other religions.

I think cows should give hindu cities happiness instead of health and no food benefit.

Having the monotheistic religions expel other more tolerant religions from a city with time is an idea. Islam and christianity rarely play a large role in the game due to it's late arrival. Having them remove other religions would make them more important.

I have plans on creating my own religion mod some day, so I'll be following your work. I have no intention of being politically correct, however.

 

[ShroudedMist]

Martinus has a good point. It might be helpful to see what is actually able to be changed concerning religions right off the bat as a means to viewing how the religions should differ from one another.

 

[Martinus]

For the record, you can also introduce negative modifiers, so having a state religion of X can, say, hurt science or commerce.

 

[Dr. Broom]

Judaism should not get a commerce bonus, Christianity should not get any bonuses from banks, however. The reason jews were successful bankers was because it was forbidden for christians to make money from money, effectively giving the jews a monopoly.

The Templars seemed like successful bankers without charging direct interest
but it wasn't common so maybe Christians can only build a bank in every 3 cities or something like that.

 

[Uty]

Here's my comment but you probably won't like it. I think this will add unneccesary complexity to the game. At the very least, if you keep this problem in mind as you design everything, you will have a better mod.