I like that religion is way simpler in Seven, although it is tedious

[Boris Gudenuf]

As a historian of religion as well as a person of religious persuasion, I find none of the Civ games to have an inspired take on religion, but Civ7's is the worst yet and by far my least favorite aspect of the game. Civ6's system wasn't great, but Civ7 managed to remove whatever was interesting or fun and just keep the bad parts like tedious missionary spam and religious victory. I really hope religion gets a deep and profound overhaul in the first expansion.

Given that religion has always been about 'hearts and minds' and numbers of believers, to reduce it to grabbing Relics - especially when many religions consider such objects to be sacriligeous - is at the very least, insulting to the whole concept of religion.

At the very least, the point of any religious 'Path' or development should be numbers of people believing in the religion (or at least Acting as if they believe in it) rather than the numbers of skulls of the same religious person that can be gathered under dubious circumstances.

 

[CliffCo]

As a historian of religion as well as a person of religious persuasion, I find none of the Civ games to have an inspired take on religion, but Civ7's is the worst yet and by far my least favorite aspect of the game. Civ6's system wasn't great, but Civ7 managed to remove whatever was interesting or fun and just keep the bad parts like tedious missionary spam and religious victory. I really hope religion gets a deep and profound overhaul in the first expansion.

I can't see them adding back a religous victory like we had in Civ6 but if they do i hope we have the option to toggle it off. While i used faith, i didn't like religion or its victory.

 

[Zaarin]

I can't see them adding back a religous victory like we had in Civ6 but if they do i hope we have the option to toggle it off. While i used faith, i didn't like religion or its victory.

We already do. It's the Exploration Age Culture Legacy. Civ7's post-Antiquity Culture Legacy path is very dissatisfying and another thing I hope gets reconsidered in the future. (I also consider Civ6's and Civ7's to tie religion directly victory conditions ill advised. I much preferred Civ4 and Civ5 where religion was an asset in pursuing various victories but not a victory condition in itself. I always turned it off in Civ6, not that it altered AI behavior.)

 

[Krikkit1]

Given that religion has always been about 'hearts and minds' and numbers of believers, to reduce it to grabbing Relics - especially when many religions consider such objects to be sacriligeous - is at the very least, insulting to the whole concept of religion.

At the very least, the point of any religious 'Path' or development should be numbers of people believing in the religion (or at least Acting as if they believe in it) rather than the numbers of skulls of the same religious person that can be gathered under dubious circumstances.

Well in game you get those “skulls” by converting “hearts and minds”

 

[CliffCo]

We already do. It's the Exploration Age Culture Legacy. Civ7's post-Antiquity Culture Legacy path is very dissatisfying and another thing I hope gets reconsidered in the future. (I also consider Civ6's and Civ7's to tie religion directly victory conditions ill advised. I much preferred Civ4 and Civ5 where religion was an asset in pursuing various victories but not a victory condition in itself. I always turned it off in Civ6, not that it altered AI behavior.)

But in 7 religion doesn't have it's own legacy path, or final victory in the modern age, that was replaced with an economic victory which i prefer.

 

[Patine]

Given that religion has always been about 'hearts and minds' and numbers of believers, to reduce it to grabbing Relics - especially when many religions consider such objects to be sacriligeous - is at the very least, insulting to the whole concept of religion.

At the very least, the point of any religious 'Path' or development should be numbers of people believing in the religion (or at least Acting as if they believe in it) rather than the numbers of skulls of the same religious person that can be gathered under dubious circumstances.

It's became like Age of Empires 2, there (though I dearly love that game, and still play it), where the Monk goes out and gathers relics to put in the Monastery for a Gold trickle, and uses the Convert ability on enemy buildings and units.

 

[Navelgazer]

Here's a question: Is there passive religious spread in Civ7 that I've just been unaware of until now? In my most recent game, I saw a rival's settlement convert to my religion without any action on my part, which I don't think I'd ever seen/noticed before.

 

[CliffCo]

Here's a question: Is there passive religious spread in Civ7 that I've just been unaware of until now? In my most recent game, I saw a rival's settlement convert to my religion without any action on my part, which I don't think I'd ever seen/noticed before.

There's a belief that allows you to convert them by sending a trade route to that settlement.

 

[queenpea]

Here's a question: Is there passive religious spread in Civ7 that I've just been unaware of until now? In my most recent game, I saw a rival's settlement convert to my religion without any action on my part, which I don't think I'd ever seen/noticed before.

There is no pressure system. Religion can be spread by trade as explained but that requires you to choose the belief that unlocks this conversion method.

 

[Navelgazer]

There's a belief that allows you to convert them by sending a trade route to that settlement.

re system. Religion can be spread by trade as explained but that requires you to choose the belief that unlocks this conversion method.

Wild - I definitely did not choose that belief. Thanks all!

 

[Kenshiro70]

It all goes to the question - what the game needs the religion to be. Civ7 has a pretty clear view of the goals of religion as a system. You have 2 modes - minimal to fill culture path and maximum to spread your religion and carry over some benefits to the next age. First mode generally works well (although it's not that much about culture), the second may require some tweaks, including those from potential additional civics:

• Additional belief unlock conditions should be stated in a clear way and potentially made easier with additional culture input
• Some policies to make conversion easier, like maybe turning both urban and rural population as a single action (this one should have drawbacks)
• Maybe even some defensive policies, requiring foreign missionaries to spend additional charges

Something like this would be very welcome

I like your ideas, and I'd add a defensive policy that imposes a short cool down on conversion - nothing is more irritating than missionaries slipping in on the last turn of the age (after you've finished your moves, natch) and flipping your city. Or worse, when it happens during the plague crisis, which is why I turn crises off.

Alternately, per your second idea, make conversion take two turns by default with upgrades to shorten it. Then you'd have to choose to focus on religion if you want the quick flip.

 

[Kenshiro70]

There's a belief that allows you to convert them by sending a trade route to that settlement.

Yup, the "Dawah" belief unlocked with Theology, and it's my go-to pick because it has a several advantages that may not be immediately apparent:

1. It will fully convert a settlement that's already following another religion (i.e., it converts both urban and rural at once)
2. Though it's more expensive due to the escalating merchant cost, it's generally more efficient, as it you're probably going to send merchants anyways, so you can save missionaries for domestic conversion.
3. It's also faster, as you can produce merchants everywhere without needing a temple first.
4. It's easy to do a rough optimization (i.e., little micromanagement needed) by producing a merchant then using the map (rather than the left panel) to send them to local trading partners.
5. Locally-sourced merchants also minimize trade route lag, so you don't end up sending two merchants to the same city. (Not that I've done that )
6. To optimize local sourcing for the settlements, click on an existing merchant on its way to establish a route. The left panel of target settlements will appear. Clicking on a settlement will not change the merchant's destination, but will move the map to that settlement so that you can determine nearby settlements to use to produce a merchant.
7. If, like me, you lower the number of AI players to make Distant Lands less populated, Dawah pairs well with Icons belief, which gives two relics on your first-time converting a "city state" (yes, they call it that). Note that the IP must still have a suzerain, which is consistent in that a suzerain is required both to establish trade routes and convert with a missionary. No cheesing that, sorry.

And that's why I say "Dawah or die"

 

[UWHabs]

Yup, the "Dawah" belief unlocked with Theology, and it's my go-to pick because it has a several advantages that may not be immediately apparent:

1. It will fully convert a settlement that's already following another religion (i.e., it converts both urban and rural at once)
2. Though it's more expensive due to the escalating merchant cost, it's generally more efficient, as it you're probably going to send merchants anyways, so you can save missionaries for domestic conversion.
3. It's also faster, as you can produce merchants everywhere without needing a temple first.
4. It's easy to do a rough optimization (i.e., little micromanagement needed) by producing a merchant then using the map (rather than the left panel) to send them to local trading partners.
5. Locally-sourced merchants also minimize trade route lag, so you don't end up sending two merchants to the same city. (Not that I've done that )
6. To optimize local sourcing for the settlements, click on an existing merchant on its way to establish a route. The left panel of target settlements will appear. Clicking on a settlement will not change the merchant's destination, but will move the map to that settlement so that you can determine nearby settlements to use to produce a merchant.
7. If, like me, you lower the number of AI players to make Distant Lands less populated, Dawah pairs well with Icons belief, which gives two relics on your first-time converting a "city state" (yes, they call it that). Note that the IP must still have a suzerain, which is consistent in that a suzerain is required both to establish trade routes and convert with a missionary. No cheesing that, sorry.

And that's why I say "Dawah or die"

I think paired with the beliefs that give 2 relics, it's probably ok to use. But missionaries are pretty cheap, and I think I should have just stuck with the belief that gives +1 charge. Even if I was using those merchants anyways, I'm pretty sure I will build more missionaries anyways. You still need the temples around to actually display the works, so it's not that hard to get them up and running before your new world missionary chain starts.

 

[Kenshiro70]

I think paired with the beliefs that give 2 relics, it's probably ok to use. But missionaries are pretty cheap, and I think I should have just stuck with the belief that gives +1 charge. Even if I was using those merchants anyways, I'm pretty sure I will build more missionaries anyways. You still need the temples around to actually display the works, so it's not that hard to get them up and running before your new world missionary chain starts.

Go for it. My main driver is that because I lower the number of AI players; I can't use the capital conversion belief. But my pants would spontaneously combust if I didn't admit to liking the min-maxing of using mostly merchants.

As you point out, you do have to build the Temples, though I like to build so that I have capacity for 11 relics, which gives me a little more control over timing of Age end. I purchase the last Temple either at 100% or to push the counter over up to 100%.