Pyre Zombie Explosions

[Alzara]

Hey guys

I've been trying out the Sheaim, but have paused for a break to ask about Pyre Zombies.

How does the explosion work (when they die)? How much damage does it do, and what is the range? Does it also damage units on the same tile (i.e. does it affect your own stack if it is killed while standing in the same stack)?

Also if you attack with one and lose, does the explosion originate from the square you attacked from, or the square in which the victorious enemy stands?

Thanks guys

Al

 

[xienwolf]

Unit dies, it hits every tile around the unit for ~10% damage, fire based. 1 Tile Range

It will not damage units on the same tile as the Zombie (uncertain on this).

It will affect your units if there are some in the tiles which are hit. (reasonably certain on this)

The tile the zombie counts as being in when you die on the attack is the tile you attacked FROM.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

All of the above are right.

God DAMN do I wish the explosions damaged units of the stack the zombie was from. Would make pyre zombie mobs sent by immortal AIs a lot more manageable.

 

[Alzara]

Thanks for the info!

Personally I'm glad it doesn't affect units on the same tile as this would make pyre zombies almost pointless. Seeing as this is the best "melee" unit available to the Sheaim, it would cripple this civ if they could not attack with them in bulk!

Al

 

[EverNoob]

I think the explosion needs to be nerfed in some way, at least give it a maximum damage or have it only affect one tile at a time. It's so powerful I have no choice but to rush the Sheaim in every game before they get pyre zombies. I mean even a medium stack of pyre zombies will lay waste to your army, even if you are stronger.

 

[Roghar]

which units in the game are fire resistant?

 

[Demus]

demons (and to a lesser extent orcs) mainly, or heroes with magic immunity promotions.

 

[slowcar]

the main problem with the explosion is that it is in no way damage capped, compared to collateral damage from spells or siege weapons.
you can not damage units with pillar of fire, maelstrom or catapults any more if they are below a certain health - not that it would be needed as they will be defeated by almost any unit now anyhow.

pyre zombies destroy your whole defending stack alone with their explosions.
i had 8 defending axemen, all above 150xp, all with combat5/shock2, fortified behind city walls (55% incl culture) and got defeated by a similar size stack of unpromoted pyro zombies because each one took 10-20% of the total health of every and each unit.
as monkeyfinger said that makes the sheaim unmanageable on high difficulties as elite troops are the only way to compete against the unbelievable stacks the AI sends against you.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

I'm just gonna repost my view on this from the balance thread:

Am I the only one that finds pyre zombie explosions too powerful? I mean it does damage to all adjacent tiles and has no maximum damage. Even a medium stack of pyre zombies is impossible to defeat without taking ridiculous losses, regardless of how strong your units are. As far as I can tell the only way to defeat them properly is with mounted units or fireballs. But mounted units require horses and fireballs are too late.

That's just not true. Pyre Zombies do damage based on relative strengths of the pyre zombie in question to each unit taking the fire damage. I've tested it in world builder and I've tested it in my current game, playing as the sheaim. Pyre Zombie damage is heavily influenced by promotions and base strength of all units involved. An unpromoted pyre zombie will do an average of 10% or less damage to technologically comparable units in a stack. A combat 3 pyre zombie will do an average of 10-30% damage to units of comparable technological level. I'm also fairly certain that shock and cover promotions are factored into the calculations. Your assertion that pyre zombie damage is independent of enemy unit strength is also false. Go into the world builder and give yourself a stack of pyre zombies and compare their effect on units ranging in power from goblins to the avatar of wrath. Alternativeley, play a game where you rely predominantly on pyre zombies for your early military. I can tell you the results of that as I am in the middle of just such a game (Creation, huge, deity, 16 civs, aggressive AI, no building reqs., and a very bad start) and I can tell you that once your enemy starts fielding units that are above axemen on the technological ladder in any field, all but your most heavily promoted pyre zombies will become relativeley ineffectual (at least in terms of explosive damage). In my current game, rangers with the occasional catapult and cavalry attack are doing wonders for the lanun in terms of staving off my undead army (That's not gonna help them much as I've just gotten my first few mobius witches, but still.).

So, the statement that "Even a medium stack of pyre zombies is impossible to defeat without taking ridiculous losses, regardless of how strong your units are" is false. Pyre Zombies are a very effective unit for the sheaim between the time other civs can field axemen and hunters and the time in which the shaeim can field mobius witches. But that is where their use ends. Also, if you consider that Pyre Zombies are the ONLY unit in the metal line that the Sheaim can produce, they really aren't particularly amazing.

While I don't think that a damage cap would be bad, pyre zombies are counterable fairly easily with catapults and horses, both of which are available early on. Once your past that phase, stronger units will defeat unpromoted pyre zombies with relative ease.

Ultimate stack buster combo: chaleid and 2 pyre zombies (how redicilous the Sheiam - empyrean combo may sound).

By the time the sheaim can field chalid, technology in all civs would have progressed to the point where standard pyre zombies would only add a few percentage points here or their in their explosion's damage.

 

[Demus]

By the time the sheaim can field chalid, technology in all civs would have progressed to the point where standard pyre zombies would only add a few percentage points here or their in their explosion's damage.

crown of brilliance + pillar of flames: 80% of their max health gone. By that time, the pire zombies would have enough relative strenght to still make a difference. Yes, i know it's not viable, it was just an example. Even if you only take down 3% per zombie, you can still take down a stack of 300 units with 30 of them.

 

[Niveras]

Wouldn't destroy undead be a pretty effective counter to them? Is there something that makes it non-viable in high difficulty games?

 

[EverNoob]

The problem presents itself at roughly equal tech level, so I suppose I wasn't clear on what I meant when I talked about unit strength. The issue is that even if you have more experienced units or even heroes, you're still going to incur huge losses.

When you attack a stack of pyre zombies with anything that has less then 3 (either raw or with roads), it's pretty sure you're going to lose a number of units equal to the number of pyre zombies, minus maybe 1 or 2 units. Even if they are more significantly more experienced.

Defending against a stack of pyre zombies is even worse. It does not matter how many units you have, or how experienced they are. A stack of roughly 10 pyre zombies will still destroy a stack of 50 units.

Wouldn't destroy undead be a pretty effective counter to them? Is there something that makes it non-viable in high difficulty games?

Unfortunately destroy undead is in the same league as fireball, it requires superior tech. In high difficulty games, the AI fields very large quantities of units. Large quantities of pyre zombies then become unmanageable.

In my current game, rangers with the occasional catapult and cavalry attack are doing wonders for the lanun in terms of staving off my undead army

Unfortunately that combination of units requires superior tech too, considering that you've researched 3 types of units, especially rangers which are a tier above pyre zombie.

I think a cap on the max damage or a limit on the number of units affected by the explosion would be a good solution. Like spells and siege units.

 

[Arctem]

One ability I really wish was added to Pyre Zombies was that they could walk through fire (from burning forests). Whenever I enter an enemies territory with a lot of trees, I usually bring 1 or 2 fire mages to burn away their forests/ancient forests. Unfortunately, this often ends up blocking my path (especially on the choke-point filled Creation map). If Pyre Zombies could transverse fires it would make this strategy far more effective, both allowing me free movement, and emphasising the spread of more fires so as to block of enemy reinforcements.

Also shouldn't the explosions catch forests on the pyre zombie's on fire?

 

[PotatoOverdose]

The problem presents itself at roughly equal tech level, so I suppose I wasn't clear on what I meant when I talked about unit strength. The issue is that even if you have more experienced units or even heroes, you're still going to incur huge losses.

When you attack a stack of pyre zombies with anything that has less then 3 (either raw or with roads), it's pretty sure you're going to lose a number of units equal to the number of pyre zombies, minus maybe 1 or 2 units. Even if they are more significantly more experienced.

Defending against a stack of pyre zombies is even worse. It does not matter how many units you have, or how experienced they are. A stack of roughly 10 pyre zombies will still destroy a stack of 50 units.

Ummmm...just went into world builder, ran a bunch of tests....and ....No, just no. Your statements that I bolded did not hold true for stacks of 20 units (to say nothing of 50). In fact, in stacks of 10 pyre zombies versus 14 axemen (open grasslands, equal promotions, pyre zombie stack attacking first), the pyre zombies only won about 50% of the time... which are actually fair results given that pyre zombies are a UU and the only unit in the Sheaim metal line. Incidentally, the collateral damage per zombie explosion in the above situation averaged out to be 5%. Further testing with the enemy having an experience advantage (initially one level and then two level advantages) yielded successively more favorable results against the pyre zombies. In fact, the one level advantage units could stand toe to toe with the pyre zombies at 10 pyrezombies versus 10 axemen (10 being the number you selected in your post). So your 'significantly experienced' statement has been effectiveley rendered void. However, my testing did not stop at just pyre zombies vs. axemen. Further testing against varius permutations of Axemen, hunters, Catapults, and Horseman yielded some rather interesting results. Namely, that stacks that composed of 25-40% horseman or catapults could, if attacking, defeat the entire stack equally large pyre zombie stack and have a reasonably large portion of the original stack survive. Further testing with the flanking promotion yielded particular success when flanking 1 horseman (and to a lesser extent hunters in concert with catapults) engaged unpromoted and promoted combat 1 zombies.

Summary: Unpromoted Pyre Zombies do have a noticeable advantage when attacking slightly larger stacks of axeman/hunters exclusively. It should be noted that even in this worst case scenario, the average rate of death due to explosion damage was less than 1 in 13. When the Axemen in question had a 1 level advantage over the pyre zombies, the results of combat were approaching 50/50. When the Enemy axemen had a 2 level advantage, the Axemen could successfully defeat equally sized stacks of pyre zombies and live to tell the tale. When horseman or catapults (both equal tech level units) were thrown into the frenzy, their was a noticeable decrease in the power of the pyre zombie stack, all the more so with the addition of flanking promotions.

Conclusion: While Pyre Zombies have a noticable advantage over melee and recon units (needing a ratio of 10:14 or 15 in order to be in danger of an overall loss), they are easily countered through the application of horseman or catapults, all the more so with promoted horseman and catapults. Therefore, the statements indicating that pyre zombies can win against more experienced units and win in ratios of 10:50 (Hell, 10:20 isn't anywhere near true either) are completely absurd. Furthermore, the average rate of death from the actual explosive damage was around 1/(11 to 14). So, capping the damage wouldn't do much either. My interpretation of this is very simple: Pyre zombies, in their current state, are balanced. The definition of balance is that a strategy or build order has strengths and weaknesses, much like the game "rock, paper, scissors". If Pyre Zombies are the rock to your scissors (your stack), let catapults and horseman be your paper to their rock. Saying something is imbalanced because you refuse to implement the correct counter is a fallacy (I say this because you yourself effectively came to the conclusion that horseman are an adequate counter).

Lastly, I'm going to throw done the gauntlet. Where the hell did you get those absurd figures about Pyre Zombies? I mean I would understand if you exaggerated a little bit, but there is no way in hell a stack of 10 pyrezombies could kill a stack of 50 or 30 or even 20 axemen (to say nothing of other types of units such as horsemen, catapults, or even hunters in some cases) of comparable (to say nothing of greater) level. I would simply request that, when discussing balance issues, people in general should cite things that are plausible or relativeley accurate. I am sorry if I've come off as a little negative in my post, but I honestly tested everything you stated (and even reduced the scales by a factor of 4 or 5 for the enemy units), and the results I found came out to be inconsistent with your descriptions.

 

[slowcar]

as a non-deity-ai, speak a human player, you have to defeat larger numbers of enemies all the time. try to overrun 5 axemen fortified in a city with a load of promotions - combat5, shock2, drill4 with nothing but melee units. they get 99,9% of winning - and that for a reason. against pyrozombies this is not possible. you can't even counterattack as you will loose ~10% of health for ALL units EVERY fight.

if i place 20 axemen against 20 pyrozombies. i have 50% chance of winning the first fight. i win -> all my remaining 19 axemen have between 3,4 and 4,0 (99hp) strength left. even for those with 99% my fighting chance is reduced to 37,2%.
from my 20vs20 i have 4 wins and 16 losses -> 4 axemen livinng against 16 suriving. the next turn i am attacked and the enemy has 99,9% of winning every fight.

i have no clue how i can put promoted units into the world using the world builder. but i know a few games that i have lost on deity because i wasn't able to control the sheaim. i just destroyed two equal power civs with my troops and lost them all against two comparable small stacks of 10-12 pyrozombies. promotions don't help against them and if you are not able to destroy them in big numbers this is a game breaker.

 

[Grand Seeker]

I haven't played against or with pyre zombies, but maybe *fireresistance* could be made more common? As it is now a hero need to be quit high level before getting the resistance promotions. There exist a build too, but that is also very high level?

Maybe enchanters could make 'rings of fireresistance' if in a town with a forge.

Maybe the elemental promotions could be somewhat easier to get?

 

[PotatoOverdose]

i have no clue how i can put promoted units into the world using the world builder. but i know a few games that i have lost on deity because i wasn't able to control the sheaim.

you can promote units by putting weak cannon fodder next to them so as to give them feed. Ok, you lost a "few" games on deity? Does anyone remember what BtS Deity is like? Even among the top 1% of BtS players, having a 50% win ratio on deity was considered good. FFH deity is a cakewalk. The fact that you state: "I lost a few deity games" indicates just how badly this game needs AI's that can use units like the pyre zombies effectively. You are NOT supposed to win most of your games on deity. That is the ENTIRE point of the deity difficulty setting. As it stands, Deity is ridiculously easy in FFH. I would honestly say that if the Sheaism AI is now a possible credible threat (I say possible because as indicated by "few", they are not consistently a threat), then they should stay in the game unitl the AI improves. If it forces people to play on lower difficulty settings, so much the better. If anything that is a reason to keep pyre zombies in their current state.

if i place 20 axemen against 20 pyrozombies. i have 50% chance of winning the first fight. i win -> all my remaining 19 axemen have between 3,4 and 4,0 (99hp) strength left. even for those with 99% my fighting chance is reduced to 37,2%.
from my 20vs20 i have 4 wins and 16 losses -> 4 axemen livinng against 16 suriving. the next turn i am attacked and the enemy has 99,9% of winning every fight.

In all of my situations pitting pyre zombies versus axemen, I had axeman defending, thus granting them the ability to heal with promotions and counter-attack unpromoted pyre zombies granting them the edge needed to hold their own. It's called basic tactics. Pyrezombies are good, possibly amazing, against axemen exclusively when on the defensive. However, pyrezombies exist, almost exclusively, for the purpose of defeating axemen. What your saying is that because pyrezombies can defeat the unit they are meant to defeat, they are overpowered. Thats like saying pikemen are overpowered because they can defeat cavalry. Pyre Zombies have a number of counters available at their tech level. In fact, all of the non magical units that are not axemen that are available at comparative techs are effective counters against pyre zombies to varying degrees. Horseman with or without withdrawal, Catapults, and hunters that wait for the pyre zombies to come within one tile of themselves or in their own cultural borders are all effective counters, the hunters being the worst case scenario. Would you send a stack of horseman to attack a stack of elephants? No! Should you send axemen to attack pyre zombies? No. Axemen can defend against pyre zombies if you really really insist on using just axemen, but their are any number of counters. By the way, in any situation where you use axemen exclusively, you deserve to lose the fight because the opponent, be they AI or player, should field shock promoted units anyway.

The moral of the story is very simple. Don't use pure axemen for your military. This is an awful idea anyway. If you do this you deserve to loose, especially on deity. If pyre zombies give the AI the ability to stomp on players that use dimwitted pure axemen tactics (again, this is especially true on deity), then Pyre zombies should be kept as is, especially given the fact that if you pursue nearly any alternative, you will have a significant leg up. Therefore, going back to my earlier rock paper scissors analogy, I think that Pyrezombies are very well balanced given their strengths and available counters, all the more so if they prevent deity from being a cakewalk for most player as compared to BTS deity.

 

[Kael]

This is great feedback on both sides. I think Im going to leave it where it is for now. Pyre Zombies are a significant early strength for the late game balanced Sheaim, but I feel like their power is mitigated by the rest of the Civ, their inability to upgrade and the fact that you have to lose the unit to deal the damage.

I orginally had the Pyre Zombies do an average of 25% damage, and that was way to powerful, at 10% they seem strong but not overwhelming. Although the next step (if they are deemed to powerful) would be applying a damage cap of 75% or so, I don't think we are at that point yet.

 

[EverNoob]

I'm not saying pyre zombies are invincible, but I wouldn't say they're very well balanced either. A mild tweak might be nice. If you put a damage cap to the explosion, you could increase the damage output to compensate. My main objection was that explosions in themselves can kill units.

@PotatoOverdose, you're right about defending vs a stack of pyre zombies. I stand corrected. Looks like i need to practice more vs pyre zombie strats. Your tone of discussion is abit too harsh though...

Attacking a stack of pyre zombies is still a major problem I think. You need to be able to move 3 tiles to avoid the explosion. I'm not denying that cavalry are the best units vs pyre zombies, but they require horses. Which makes the Sheaim extremely difficult to attack in the early game if you don't have horses.

Adding the use of catapults requires researching 2 branches of tech (cavalry + cats or recon + cats) vs the 1 branch of tech pyre zombies require. And you still lose your catapults to the explosion.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

@PotatoOverdose, you're right about defending vs a stack of pyre zombies. I stand corrected. Looks like i need to practice more vs pyre zombie strats. Your tone of discussion is abit too harsh though...
.

I apologize if my tone was harsh. My post sometimes come off that way, its just a bad habit on my side, I'm afraid, as I have a rather argumentative personality.

To clarify my earlier posts: I don't think Pyre Zombies are in any need of a balance adjustment; however, I don't think a max damage cap would hurt them too much either since I have rarely seen pyrezombie fire damage actually kill something, and I have used and fought against them extensively. Therefore a damage cap, unless relativeley low, would do very little. That might just be my own experience though. At the same time, i think there are other things that are higher on the list of things that need balance adjustments *namely ancient forests and the civic thereof, Alazkan, and Luchuirp civ as a whole (awesome world spell for a great start+ fireball golems at elementalism=win @elemntalism imo).