question about MD's early Poland play & forward settling

[flying_dug0ng]

Hellos all - would like to ask what's the consensus about forward settling.

I saw early in his game he plonked one smack in Bismark's face, had Rome (known warmonger) to the east, Russia (known backstabber) to the west, and was confident enough to not build a single bloody unit until turn 150~. All his early hammers went into infra. At least in LC's games his 3rd/4th city usually goes Archer/Archer.

Whenever I forward settle in my Immortal games, I inadvertantly get dowed by turn 80~120.

Things I alwayscheck before settling:
1. Never do it on an Honor civ
2. Check if we're having the same friends/enemies
3. Ancient/Classical UU's have a propensity to war early (true?) so I'd think twice
4. Purposely send trade routes to him, check if he'd sent any
5. Always settle on a hill

5/5 games so far, I get dowed. Rush buying walls and a composite does diddly squat.

What's the secret here?

 

[Arachnofiend]

I think a big part of MadDjinn's peace was the fact that his neighbors didn't really have any viable trading partners in the early game other than him. If they wanted gold to fund a war, they needed to send caravans to him; therefore, they could not declare on him. Obviously this changes later in the game and a map where this sort of set up happens is too rare to count on.

 

[Tachii]

What's uh, forward settling? Like settle purposely near AI cities?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Pretty much. You generally get a severe diplo hit from settling near an AI because they see it as a form of aggression. When MadDjinn did it Bismarck asked for a declaration of friendship.

 

[Maxym]

You might not get to t 150 like him, but t80-120 is plenty of time to do something about it, especially as you say it happened before. You can have Four cities up, NC and archers ready to upgrade to CB by t 80, by 120 if AI is slow coming for you you can gave a well developed empire and CB army ready to turn XB at moments notice. I love when they attack around t 110.

And when you do forward settle do it on Defensible hill, not just any hill. One that will have LoS obscured for his advance and high ground for your range behind it. It will do wnders when the war breaks out.

 

[flying_dug0ng]

Before this I always have 4-5 archers ready to defend, never had a problem forward settling.

After seeing his game I thought I'd try to go full infra like he did. Yet I still get dowed after all the precautions and checks I took. One game Maria was 10 tiles away yet she sent enough catas to take my frontier. My last game as Korea, Nebby was jolly being friends then gifted me with bowmen/swords at turn 60.

My questions here is how is MD that confident he wouldn't get a backstab? If one of them did, no way he had the time/gold to get defense.

@Arachno - so is that the secret? No trade route from AI = prepare for war; trade route present, continue building infra?

 

[Arachnofiend]

That would be my guess, yeah. Of course, I'm only just recently moving up to Immortal so I'm hardly an expert on the matter. It should probably be remembered that even MD thought that all the peacemongering going on his game was really bizarre.

 

[Maxym]

Yeah I have noticed that too, AI pulling routes before DoW, not sure it's a surefire indicator but it helps. On other hand , they can get ready and change their mind. I saw Maria mass a huge force to attack cathy who settled few cities on her continent. It's industrial era but early, deity all standard continents and my spies told me exact city she was targeting, my scouts saw the army and Maria asked me to join in.... For number of turns nothing, then those gals decide they will be BFFs

In fact besides few wars I paid for, one I started on Pedro when he tried to forward settle me, and Shaka attacking Indonesia, there has been no wars until now, 180 turns and almost modern era. I dont know how you get to be so lucky and have daring AIs.

 

[Furycrab]

A huge factor in Maddjinn game was that the cities he took actually kinda sucked. 1 Lux almost all the way. He also managed to get some DOFs with Catherine and Germany before he went really close to them. The more aggressive the civ, the more honest they usually are. A "peaceful" civ is more likely to break a DOF to take a 2-3 lux city on it's borders.

Then there is just a little bit of luck.

 

[Kwami]

I don't know, this seems to be the norm for BNW. I almost never have combat anymore, regardless of who my neighbors are or where I settle.