R&T - How to obtain Chivalry and Theology ?

[Rik Meleet]

Our nation is still oblivious on Chivalry and Theology. But there is hope.

In 6 turns alliances with Maya and China agaisnt France end and France knows these things. We can include them in the peace treaty.

Alternatively; we research Invention in 5 turns. If we get it as a (near) monopoly, we can use that tech to obtain the said techs + hopefully even more top-branch techs + gold and gpt.

A third way is a mixture of both other ways. In the peace with France we can include techs for their techs.

Or we can buy it. Now. For cash or gpt.
Byz: Theology for about 1450 gold. Chiv for about 1100 gold. Both for about 2000 gold + 30 gpt.
Persia: Byz: Theology for about 1450 gold. Chiv for about 1150 gold. Both for about 2000 gold + 35 gpt.
Maya doesn't know Theology, bus asks about 1100 for Chivalry.

My proposal is to wait till we have Invention; assess the situation and depending on that play 1 more turn so we can cancel the alliances versus France and check out options 2 and 3.
If, at the discovery of Invention, we have it at a monopoly, Trade it for Theology at the best price (preferably from a civ that hasn't got it yet) and look at Byz and Persia (sci civs) what they have beyond that. Use Invention to obtain those techs as well. Then return to some slacker-civs to get Chivalry.

But; it's not my call alone; your opinion is as important as mine. Discuss.

 

[Bertie]

We won’t have a need for Theology or any of the top-tier techs for quite awhile, and I wouldn’t be in a hurry to trade for them. I’d prefer not trading Invention if at all possible. Invention of course leads to Gun Powder, which will allow the French to build their UU. We need to slow down the French. It’d be good not to help the AI speed their research if at all possible. Besides, we’ll get Theology plus other top-tier goodies when we capture the Great Library in Persepolis. The last thing we want to do at the moment is race to Education.

At the moment the French won’t give us much in a peace settlement, least of all Chivalry. However, it will be at least 6 turns before we can make peace with the French and a lot will happen before then. By that time we’ll take & raze Marseilles & Avignon. The French have also taken the Chinese city of Tsingtao, so we might contemplate capturing that. These actions may change the French mood considerably and make for a more generous peace settlement. But we can’t count on it.

I hope we can get Chivalry from the French, but if we can get it earlier at a decent price, we should grab it. The firepower of Knights would speed our wars. We’re going to be facing War Weariness problems soon and we need a more effective (speedier) military. In retrospect we probably blundered by not acquiring Chivalry from the Byzantines when we had the opportunity to trade Engineering and some gold for it; but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[classical_hero]

We won’t have a need for Theology or any of the top-tier techs for quite awhile, and I wouldn’t be in a hurry to trade for them. I’d prefer not trading Invention if at all possible. Invention of course leads to Gun Powder, which will allow the French to build their UU. We need to slow down the French. It’d be good not to help the AI speed their research if at all possible. Besides, we’ll get Theology plus other top-tier goodies when we capture the Great Library in Persepolis. The last thing we want to do at the moment is race to Education.

I thought that the goal was to win by culture, so by us not going that was the top path does seem to be bit strange. Who cares about the Great Library? It is useless for us because we need culture will eventually get education eventually, so why don't we go for that instead.

 

[Rik Meleet]

We won?t have a need for Theology or any of the top-tier techs for quite awhile, and I wouldn?t be in a hurry to trade for them. I?d prefer not trading Invention if at all possible. Invention of course leads to Gun Powder, which will allow the French to build their UU. We need to slow down the French. It?d be good not to help the AI speed their research if at all possible. Besides, we?ll get Theology plus other top-tier goodies when we capture the Great Library in Persepolis. The last thing we want to do at the moment is race to Education.

the first thing we want to do is race to education. universities = culture and we need it badly. we need that a lot more than a Great-Librarey-rape.

 

[greekguy]

the first thing we want to do is race to education. universities = culture and we need it badly. we need that a lot more than a Great-Librarey-rape.

i agree, we need culture more than knights. chivalry is also an optional tech, we can trade for it instead.

 

[Furiey]

We are still building Libraries and Temples, and we haven't started on Cathedrals yet. It'll be a while before we run out of culture to build and we need Universities so no need to race towards Education.

My proposal is to wait till we have Invention; assess the situation and depending on that play 1 more turn so we can cancel the alliances versus France and check out options 2 and 3.
If, at the discovery of Invention, we have it at a monopoly, Trade it for Theology at the best price (preferably from a civ that hasn't got it yet) and look at Byz and Persia (sci civs) what they have beyond that. Use Invention to obtain those techs as well. Then return to some slacker-civs to get Chivalry.

This option sounds better to me (we have the negative gpt we ran to recover after all), while we keep researching towards Military Tradition, a route the AI does not appear to be taking allowing us to trade for the upper path techs.

But, the tech pace is definitely hotting up now, we need to finish our conquest of the territory we want quickly or we will expend too many resources that we will need to start turning over to culture. So unless we can get to Military Tradition quickly and bypass Knights altogether then we may find that we don't get the territory needed to build all those cities to get the culture we need. I haven't checked yet - how many turns to research to Military Tradition at max?

 

[mad-bax]

Once we have a temple and library in the towns we have, and once we have ICS'd outside oure core we can worry about Theology and education. We need land, and we need some markets and we need libraries in our core so that we can self-research effectiviely.

In a recent culture game an SGOTM team fought right to the domination limit before building any culture. About 30 turns later they were producing 3000cpt.

Libraries are the most cost effective culture giving 3cpt for 80 shields and 1gpt maintenance. Temples are next at 2cpt for 60 shields and 1gpt maintenance. Cathederals cost the same as libraries, but also cost 2gpt maintenance and don't help with research. Universities cost 200shields for 4cpt and 2gpt maintenance are an even worse deal. Don't get me started on Collesiums.

We need the military techs so that we can get to the domination limit quickly. The sooner we do that, the sooner we can build culture. The more land we have, and the tighter we build, the more cultural buildings we can create. Particularly, the more CHEAP cultural buildings we can have.

Buildig culture now drains resources. It drains shields that could go to military, and it drains gpt that can go to research and to rushing.

Just research to MT as fast as you can. I'll provide libraries to help with this, and markets to help the finances. No Cathederals, and no unis even if we get the tech.

 

[Bertie]

the first thing we want to do is race to education. universities = culture and we need it badly. we need that a lot more than a Great-Librarey-rape.

We’re going to capture Persepolis eventually anyway, and with it comes the Great Library. With it we can get Theology and beyond. In that we have NO immediate need for Theology or Education (as mad-bax says, he won’t be building universities soon even if he could), why target those techs? IN THIS THREAD we’ve already decided that our tech goal is beeline towards Military Tradition. I’m not seeing the utility in expending resources to obtain something (Theology) that we eventually will get for free. And we won’t be ready to make use of the technology until we do obtain it for free. Sometimes the best trade is the one you don't make.

i agree, we need culture more than knights. chivalry is also an optional tech, we can trade for it instead.

I’d rather we somehow do an advantageous trade for Chivalry so we can use Knights to take out the Chinese before they learn Chivalry (and can build their UU); but agree we might be able to skip that tech entirely. If this were my own game I’d actually delay learning Chivalry so that I could build a cheap horse army of 60 – 80 to be upgraded when I learned MT (even the most corrupt town can build a horse in 30 turns). I might also switch the FP build in Oxford to Leo’s to make upgrading cheaper (though I’m not sure if building Leo’s really pays; I’ve never figured out the cost/benefit of it). Anyway, with those 60+ Calvary it’d be easy to sequentially take out the rest of the AI. No war would last more than 5/6 turns so WW wouldn’t be a problem. Once the wars were over we could disband most of the army in corrupt towns to help build culture.

Temples are next at 2cpt for 60 shields and 1gpt maintenance. Cathederals cost the same as libraries, but also cost 2gpt maintenance and don't help with research. Universities cost 200shields for 4cpt and 2gpt maintenance are an even worse deal. Don't get me started on Collesiums.

Libraries are a must as are temples IMO. I still like universities even though they’re pricey. Four temples cost 240 shields and yield 4 culture @ an expense of 4 GPT. One university yields the same culture as 4 temples, costs 40 shields less, and maintenance is 2 GPT less. The problem with universities is they are expensive enough that rushing one in each town is difficult, whereas temples are cheap enough that we can afford to rush one in every hamlet.

 

[Furiey]

Four temples cost 240 shields and yield 4 culture @ an expense of 4 GPT. One university yields the same culture as 4 temples, costs 40 shields less, and maintenance is 2 GPT less.

Sorry, but Temples yield 2 cpt at an upkeep of 1gpt. Therefore 2 Temples yield the same as 1 University and cost the same upkeep, but cost 80 shields less than the University. As mad-bax said we need lots of cheap culture, Temples and Libraries, in lots of cities.

 

[Bertie]

Sorry, but Temples yield 2 cpt at an upkeep of 1gpt. Therefore 2 Temples yield the same as 1 University and cost the same upkeep, but cost 80 shields less than the University. As mad-bax said we need lots of cheap culture, Temples and Libraries, in lots of cities.

Whoops, you are quite right! Maybe I was just trying to rationalize my fondness for universities? Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, I do agree libraries & temples need to be the foucs. Anything else is gravy, which is nice to have but not necessary to win.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Poll posted

 

[Furiey]

One thing we need to remember:

As the Persians have the Great Library, once 2 people they know gets a tech then they get it as well. Therefore if we see the situation where they are about to gain for free something we have for sale then we might as well get whatever we can get for it. This is probably what happened with Engineering, the Maya got Engineering, a few turns later we did, then the Persians got it for free in the next ibt, preventing us re-examining the Engineering for Chivalry deal.

 

[Double Stack]

Solution: Give Persians Education in exchange for other things to get rid of their advantage.