Racing Deity to Space

[Spoonwood]

I'll probably mention some of the ideas in these threads as we go along, one happens on small maps, and another on large maps as a diplomatic game, but I'll put these links up as some sort of reference point:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259231&page=2
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=157933&page=5

Of course, we'll play our own way. What do you think about tribe selection and opponents Andronicus?

 

[Andronicus]

What do you think about tribe selection and opponents Andronicus?

Well, scientific is a given

I presume we want to chose a start with 5fpt for 4 turner and re chose start if we dont get SGL for pyramids and a worker factory? Pangea, max land, warm and wet? No GH unless play as Russia.

The options
Sumeria - food is always good, no matter the level,
Korea or Greece - commercial is esp good at higher levels later in the game when we want to be pushing the science,
Ottomen or Persians - not likely to make use of their UU since we want a late GA, but still good to get roads up sooner
Babs - hadnt considered it before but OK, some cheap temples for holding our own in culture
Byz - nup - I think we want pangea for early trades and rapid early research
Germans - well I'm not against some military - I have little experience in peaceful games and usually look to capture land for science factories, so I wouldnt dismiss the increased leader opportunities completely
Russia - an interesting option as deity gives best chance of popping a settler (or is it a town? - I dont recall exactly). This plus speeding us and AI through the AA might be helpful. Dont forget we also get earlier contacts (reducing tech time for us and AI) and an earlier idea of the lie of the land.

Do we go for any wonders ? Cops / Newtons - this would imply avoid civs which these give GA - in combination with pyramids (all bar Germans, Byz and the commercial ones)

Starting techs - nice to have alpha and go straight for phil (is rep SS poss?)
- what is best to get chance for SGL (? no religious civs and research CB first)

Overall I guess I would vote for Greece or Korea - Korea reduces chance of AA GA, although if we get into a AA war we might be toast anyway. Both can have UN triggered GA if we have built Newtons or ToE.

Opponents
I am unsure how the number of opponents affects tech cost. Certainly killing off AI to reduce number of oponents reduces cost, but does starting with more opponents increase the base tech cost?
I think we want at least 5 scientifics for the age change - perhaps 6 or 7 and exclude Babs so we can research CB first up and get oportunity for early SGL?
I would not be averse to having France as well giving 7 or 8 opponents. France usually does well in AI hands.

 

[Spoonwood]

For an early SGL you can go no religious tribes and research CB, or you can play no commercial tribes and research Alphabet, or Writing depending on your chosen tribe. I don't think it makes sense to detour to CB, as that pretty much slows things down even if we get to it first. Goody huts definitely go out if we want that SGL. If we want that Pyramids SGL, we can turn the "preserve random seed" setting off, save the game one turn before we discover our tech, and then reload and play that turn until our SGL appears (we can't play this for the HOF anyways).

 

[Bucephalus]

If we want that Pyramids SGL, we can turn the "preserve random seed" setting off, save the game one turn before we discover our tech, and then reload and play that turn until our SGL appears (we can't play this for the HOF anyways).

I will need a lot of convincing that that's acceptable; seems to me, it would devalue the game.

 

[Optional]

I am unsure how the number of opponents affects tech cost. Certainly killing off AI to reduce number of oponents reduces cost, but does starting with more opponents increase the base tech cost?

No. The base tech cost is a fixed number in the editor, connected to the map size alone, and not influenced by the number of opponants you choose.

 

[ThinkTank]

lurker's comment:

I presume we want to chose a start with 5fpt for 4 turner and re chose start if we dont get SGL for pyramids and a worker factory?

If we want that Pyramids SGL, we can turn the "preserve random seed" setting off, save the game one turn before we discover our tech, and then reload and play that turn until our SGL appears (we can't play this for the HOF anyways).

I will need a lot of convincing that that's acceptable; seems to me, it would devalue the game.

I'd agree with Buce for any kind of competitive play. However, if you want a "try-out" kind of game, and were to follow Andronicus plan, then Spoonwood's idea is just a faster way of realizing that.

Point is, do you think that that Pyramids SGL is a must have for your goals to succeed? If so, then you might as well get to play from a save that has that, and don't bother too much about how you got there.

 

[Andronicus]

If we want that Pyramids SGL, we can turn the "preserve random seed" setting off, save the game one turn before we discover our tech, and then reload and play that turn until our SGL appears (we can't play this for the HOF anyways).

I must admit when I first read this I thought "no way", but I can see how frustrating it could be to throw out 20 (yes the odds say 1:11 for scientific tribe) otherwise perfectly good starts. Still I think I would want to play this game on the premise that it would be acceptable to Hall of Fame rules if it had been played by 1 player. If that means we run a whole lot of starts then we each chose a couple and post when we get that SGL (and then factories), then hopefully we havnt had to practice too many starts.

 

[Spoonwood]

I agree with Bucephalus about the preserve random seed off idea "devaluing" the game in a sort of way. But, really only in the way that ThinkTank mentioned it. I only meant it as a faster way of realizing Andronicus's idea. It has other problems though beyond competitive play also, in that since we'd have random seed off, if we got into wars, one of us could reload for battles and not tell the rest of the team they did so. I trust you guys, and an honor system sounds great, but I'd rather not have an out like that.

We don't need The Pyramids for a fast launch. Having said that, playing a bunch of starts for a solo game sounds fine Andronicus. But, if we each played a bunch of starts until we got a Pyramids SGL one player and go for Writing or Alphabet, we will have basically have to play 30-40 some odd turns by which time we'll probably have 2 to 4 cities out, since I don't think taking the time to build a granary makes sense if you'll get The Pyramids soon thereafter anyways. I'd rather at least talk about where we place our cities as a team. And that wouldn't happen if one of us plays until we have a Pyramids SGL, if we did it via Alphabet or Writing.

We could go CB for The Pyramids as you suggested. Also, checking archphoenix's save, I think he did it another way (he built The Pyramids in 3300 BC) in his Ottos SS game. I believe he researched Pottery. Maybe we don't lose too much time if we do such. If we play as The Ottos, can we grab Alphabet from Masonry and Pottery/Ceremonial Burial? I know we could probably grab Masonry via Alphabet with Korea, but then we'll build the Pyramids later. The Ottos seem the clear choice over Persia, and Korea the clear choice over Greece, since their respective UUs come later. I think it better to build The Pyramids sooner rather than later and I don't see Korea meeting meeting The Ottos or Persia before 3000 BC, so if we want The Pyramids The Ottomans become the clear choice, at least for me. We'll also probably want to try avoiding The Great Library then (though with Korea we wouldn't need to do so).

Supposing The Ottos then and going for the Pyramids, do we leave out Babylon and go for Ceremonial Burial or do we leave out both Russia and Sumeria and go for Pottery? I suppose we could hazard leaving out Germany and shooting for Warrior Code, but we'd get The Pyramids later, and I don't see us getting there first usually. The Wheel seems more likely, but CB or Pottery seems much better. If we go as The Ottos, do we leave out Persia also for better early trading opportunities via Masonry?

To at least get us going, I'll propose
Selected Tribe: The Ottomans
Opponents: Greece, Korea, Byzantines, Sumeria, Russia, Germany

If we want 7 opponents, I say throw Persia back in. If we only want 5 I say throw Russia out. If you guys don't like throwing Russia out, then throw Germany out. SGL fish via Ceremonial Burial.

SGL fishing in itself doesn't seem too bad, even though you have throw away 19 out of 20 starts or so. SGL fishing *and* having a 5 food start with anyone but Sumeria comes as something more difficult though.

I saw in Chamnix's Diplomatic game that he took the lump sums of the better AIs and gave them gpt for it from the middle ages on, so they would have more commerce for research. What do you guys think of this sort of infinite banker strategy? I don't know if this would work all the way through the modern era, and it seems something we'd have to stick to once we started doing it. I don't think we need it, and maybe don't want it either, but it's a thought.

 

[Andronicus]

We don't need The Pyramids for a fast launch.

Correct ... but I would suggest most times it will be quicker if we have pyramids to ensure rapid early expansion. Same goes for 2 turn SF and 2 turn WF, I'm sure a fast time could be done, but IMO these 3 likely give a power boost to early launch (well to almost any VC when you think about it ).

 

[Andronicus]

To at least get us going, I'll propose
Selected Tribe: The Ottomans
Opponents: Greece, Korea, Byzantines, Sumeria, Russia, Germany

If we want 7 opponents, I say throw Persia back in. If we only want 5 I say throw Russia out. If you guys don't like throwing Russia out, then throw Germany out. SGL fish via Ceremonial Burial.

So, are you suggesting an earlier GA? - Sipahi or Newton's induced?
How about throwing France into the mix?
Is it better to have more AI to speed AA research and trading, then weed out any we find useless (so long as we arnt the ones weeded out)?

I saw in Chamnix's Diplomatic game that he took the lump sums of the better AIs and gave them gpt for it from the middle ages on, so they would have more commerce for research. What do you guys think of this sort of infinite banker strategy? I don't know if this would work all the way through the modern era, and it seems something we'd have to stick to once we started doing it. I don't think we need it, and maybe don't want it either, but it's a thought.

AI waste money, so taking their mony for gpt makes sense. I use this a lot to finance my research, often running large negative gpt. It has the added bonus of speeding AI research. I guess it depends how much self research we plan doing (I would think min would be doing the unpopular techs) in AA and MA. Once in IA I expect we would be doing the bulk of research. One side effect of funding AI is less likelihood of dow, though I still find the AI extorts.

 

[Spoonwood]

So, are you suggesting an earlier GA? - Sipahi or Newton's induced?

No, not necessarily. But, if we go as the Ottos I wouldn't mind a Newton's induced GA. I don't see any reason to throw France into the mix. They might have good commerce, but they probably won't get libraries and universities in fast enough, and they don't have free techs. I'd really rather go 7 sci opponents than put them in. I don't know if it's better to have more AIs with more free tech opportunities, or to have fewer AIs with more territory for everyone.

With "weeding out" AI, given that we do so, we can trim some weak tribe down to 1 city, but then we'll have to make sure that no other AI tries to exterminate them, at least not until the modern era.

 

[Spoonwood]

I admit that I had some misgivings about the idea of doing the infinite banking strategy before, as it almost seemed an exploit. Now I think it almost too big of a risk... or maybe I need to handle it better. I didn't really do it right in this save, as early on I didn't pick 2 AIs and stick to it. Somehow Germany, who didn't have Physics when I entered the industrial ages, got to Fascism first. I fed them like 64 gpt for an age-changeover I think, but just one time. I don't understand how they got to Fascism first... but of course that means now the Ottomans and Korea, who I ended up targeting as the good AIs, have no money. I don't want to sell Sanitation here since it's my trading tech for Industralization. Again, maybe I need to handle this more skillfully, and maybe I had some rare bad luck here, but judging from this experience... and considering that we'd need to keep it going all the way to and throughout the modern era or risk warring in the modern era with powerful Deity AIs when nukes might lie around, I think it prudent to forget this sort of banker strategy. It might work for warmongering games where the AIs "have no beneficiary", but if you want the best AIs to do research for you, it seems too risky. Here's the large map game I've tried this with. I guess I could sell off all the temples... but that doesn't go well with hospitals in some cities, nor with keeping culture up to help prevent flips.

Unfortunately, we'll either need to all agree that we use such a banker strategy, or it won't work, since we'll *all* have to do it. So, unless someone can convince me that I just had bad luck in the following game, I don't see it as smart for us to do it. Archphoenix didn't do it, so no big worry, right?

 

[Spoonwood]

Andronicus and Bucephalus,

I feel comfortable with us three for this game... at least until we get another taker or something. Getting enough maps with mapfinder for me will take quite sometime. Would either of you care (or both) to find and then play some 5 despotic food starts with The Ottos with Korea, Greece, Byzantines, Persia, Germany, Sumeria, and Russia as opponents (if you want just 6 opponents, take out Persia, 5 opponents take out Germany or Russia, and Persia also... I feel flexible on this, but I suggest a full 7 opponents), research CB and play it out until you pop the SGL on CB? I don't expect a turn-log for the turns while researching CB, since no doubt you'll have played a bunch of throw-away starts. The second player will then start our turn-logs more properly. I'll try to find some time for this myself, but I don't leave my computer on, unless I'm awake and in the house, so getting a map that works might take some time for me, so maybe one you guys could get us started faster?

 

[Bucephalus]

I'll do what I can, mate, but Mrs. Buce and my daughter have both come down with the flu, so I'm at full stretch atm.

I'm willing to play it as you suggest, but I'm loathe to throw out a start with good terrain and resources, just because we don't get a SGL with CB. In that event, I'll save it for discussion; to be honest, I'm not sold on the idea that we need the pyramids that badly - they would be nice to have, but managing without them is well within our collective capabilities, and, of course, there remains the option of taking them by force.

Edit: A couple of things.

1) We definitely need huts off for this strategy - CB is the first tech to come from a hut.

2) I'm not convinced we'll get CB first on Deity; in my experience, the AI get all first tier techs pretty quickly, especially on a crowded map, where they make contact early. If they get to swap techs early enough, one of them will probably research it before we can.

As far as there being just the three of us, that's fine by me; by coincidence, I've played a three-hander with Andronicus (and the inimitable Zerksees) before, and that worked out fine.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Hope Mrs. Buce and Little Miss Buce get well soon.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment: Hope Mrs. Buce and Little Miss Buce get well soon.

Thanks, Aabra, that's very thoughtful.

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks Buce, no rush really. Take care of your family first, please! I've tried 6 2 cow starts so far and not gotten an SGL yet and one other 5 food start.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm fine with 3 person roster but with invitation open for suitable level players.

I was going to post that I've come round to thinking we dont need the pyramids SGL for this game after all (we just get a good start and play it to the fastest finish we can). I might use what we discuss here to later try a HOF attempt with only SGL pyramids continued on (but then I may find it too stressful to just chuck out an otherwise excellent start).

So, what are the parameters we cant do without - 4 turn SF and 2 turn WF? Anything else?

 

[Spoonwood]

I've tried like 4 or 5 more 2 cow starts with the Ottos and as expected, no lucky SGL. The problem with those starts comes as that if we don't get the Pyramids SGL on CB, we *should* throw it away, becasue we've probably wasted commerce on CB in such a case.

I think we could do a 6 turn settler factory actually and turn out o.k., but no doubt a 4 turner makes more sense. We want at least one worker pump, if not 2 or 3. Of course, Sumeria makes for the easiest tribe to a get a 4 turner going, and they also work as the easiest tribe to get worker pumps going. Can't say I've had enough Gilgamesh yet, even though I play him a bunch. Here's a *possibility*

Spoiler :

Opponents: all sci tribes, except Germany, going along with Bucephalus thought that they're too agreesive.

I didn't take the first food bonus start, but looked for one a little more off coast than some I seemed to get.

1-4000 BC: Found Ur. Several bonus grasslands around, so first comes a second worker... this way we can fairly quickly get a 4 turn enkidu-settler combo factory up. If you guys really don't like that move, we'll try another start along a little more conventional lines. Set research to 20% on Alphabet. We *should* plan on the Great Library. If we don't need it, great... but we'd better come up with a plan for it fast. Maybe Ur can build, maybe some city in the first ring, we'll see. Worker southeast to cow. We're kind of north on the map, so we might find a better start without too much difficulty, althogh maybe this one will turn out really good.

2-3950 BC: irrigate cow.

3-3900 BC: click next turn

4-3850 BC: click next turn

5-3800 BC: click next turn

6-3750 BC: Road cow square. Ur-worker-granary. 2nd worker moves NE to BG along the river.

7-3700 BC: Mine BG.

8-3650 BC: Click next turn.

9-3600 BC: Move worker from roaded cow square to another BG along the river.

10-3550 BC: Ur hits size 2. Start mining 2nd BG and swap Ur to the BG where the mine will finish first. Lux. to 10%, sci. to 10%.

11-3500 BC: See we've got a bunch of mountains and hills around and a coastal spot at CxxC spacing. I believe it better to plop down on hills to maximize food for this sort of game, but I certainly don't mind the hills otherwise, since we'll want good production fast for improvements (hence the enkidu-settler combo factory can help short-rush improvements). We can probably put The Great Library or the Forbidden palace in this area... not three squares directly north, but two the north and one northwest... maybe as our 2nd, 3rd, or 4th town since it's not the direction of our expansion... but maybe the first one, since it'll grow more that way. Two squares south and one square southeast on the hill with one forest northwest and one east looks like a good spot for a town also.... if it has BGs around, it might work well for the FP/Great Library also. If it has a cow, wheat, or game, I'd think worker pump. I can't guess otherwise yet. I think settling south first makes more sense so the AIs don't creep up there too fast, then the northern spot *maybe*, then more south. Swap from forest back to the BG which will get mined first.

I don't mean to rush us here, but I thought it better to get at least get some *possible* inital turns up. At least to maintain interest or something. If you guys would prefer another tribe or other opponents or something, we can do that. With Bucephalus's family, I think it best to have Andronicus go next and then Bucephalus *if* you guys like this start and feel comfortable with what I did with it. A screenie:

Here's the save:

 

[Bucephalus]

I understand your desire to get going SW, but I think we need a start with more river tiles around us, not just in the capitals bfc, for two reasons - commerce, which for a fast Deity game would hold true for any civ, and to take advantage of the Agri trait. Without a river-rich start, Sumeria becomes a second level civ, IMO.

I'm ok to go with Sumeria, if that's your preference, but I thought we were leaning towards Korea/Greece in our earlier discussions?