Ragnar: total sociopath

[zienth]

We all know that Montezuma is a psycho who loves to kill anyone and everyone, but I just had an experience with Ragnar that makes Monty seem sane.

I was playing as Boudica and started out about 2/3 of the way out a big peninsula, with Ragnar starting at its base, and the rest of the AIs beyond Ragnar (this was a fractal map, but it turned out to be a pangea). The peninsula between me and Ragnar was mostly jungle, and he was 17 squares away, so despite Boudica being a natural warmonger, the situation called for REX, so I did so and worked on being friendly with Ragnar. I eventually founded Christianity, converted Ragnar, and built the AP. At this point he was Pleased with me, which I know is only 90% safe with him. On his other side was Darius, who was another religion, so I was happy when Ragnar declared war on Darius. I was about done placing cities at this point so I started massing Gallic Warriors down in my city that was nearest to Darrius, hoping Ragnar would invite me to join the fun, and sure enough, he did and I joined the war against Darrius.

At this point Ragnar was Friendly with me and I figured I was safe from him. So I sent troops through Ragnar's land and took one of Darius' cities. After a bit Ragnar got peace with Darius. I decided to take a second city and then make peace as well, but right when I rolled my SoD up to Daruis' city, Ragnar declared war on me!

I checked his attitude, and even with the -3 for being at war that guy was still Pleased with me. Excuse me? Did he think we were having a friendly rugby match?

I controlled the AP, so after a couple of turns, before we was able to do anything to me, I called a vote to end the war. He was immediately back to Friendly. I asked for open borders so I could move troops through him back towards Darius, and he was happy to do so. I also noticed that "Vassal" was white, so I clicked it and asked what he wanted. He didn't want anything, he was quite happy to become my vassal for nothing.

So, to sum it up, he was Pleased, asked me to join him in a war, I did so and he was Friendly, he then made peace and turned around and backstabbed me, while still remaining Pleased. When forced back to peace he was once again Friendly and willingly became my vassal.

Monty is a psycho, but at least when he attacks you and makes peace, he's still furious with you. He's always mad and ready to fight, you can count on that. But Ragnar? Total sociopath. One second he's your best friend, the next second he's trying to kill you, and the next he's buddy-buddy like nothing happened, and the next he's bowing down and swearing fealty. This guy is scary, you never know what he's going to do.

I just hope he's safely on leash as my vassal.

Zienth

 

[MrFelony]

I think that's funny because i've been friendly all game with ragnar and trusted him so i didnt upgrade my troops and deleted some for maintanaince and he never declared war on me once . though what i made sure to do was give him teh option and ability to declare war on AIs on the other continent

 

[Cam_H]

I sure believe it's a cautionary tale, and a manifestation of one of the criticisms of BtS that the AI is so unreliable that diplomacy at times is so odd and futile that 'the human player' is at a loss as to how to manage relations in an efficient and effective manner.

I guess just throw Ragnar on the 'Alexander and Catherine' list of AIs that 'all but ignore' diplomacy.

 

[MrFelony]

well just imagine what the AI thinks of human players.

Gandhi: i dont know cyrus, me and IkillAIs were all friendly. we were sharing techs, trading resources, and i even gave him open boarders! I thought we were the best of buddies and then he just goes and invades me .
Cyrus: I know, I know. I'm sure he won't abuse us too much if we vassalize to him.

 

[Cam_H]

well just imagine what the AI thinks of human players.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Fizban]

Maybe Ragnar was losing in his war to Darius and Darius offered peace if he'd declare war on you? That would jive with his being so willing to become your vassal -- he was weak.

 

[zienth]

I don't think he was losing or winning his war with Darius. Looking at the demographics, his power level never had a significant drop during that war, and the only cities that changed hands were the ones I took. I think he and Darius were having a phony war. If I thought the AI was a lot smarter, I might think he staged a phony war to lure me in so he could backstab me, but I don't give it that much credit.

On the other hand, Ragnar was at the bottom of the score list. I had been tossing techs to him in hopes of toughening him up so he'd make a decent pet dog, but he ended up biting the hand that was feeding him. I'd rather have had him as an ally than as a vassal, so I could have sent him to war without going to war myself, but I guess I'll have to come along to keep him under supervision.

What tech enables those GPS ankle bracelets they use on parolees?

Zienth

 

[madscientist]

I am unsure what drove Ragner to do what he did. I will say that he is much more agressive and unpredictable in BTS than Warlords. Cyrus is also more of a warmongerer, at least later in the game. Some of the old AIs have changed a bit.

People have complained about AI trechery at Friendly, but I say if the human can it let the AI. Not all the time, but given the right situation and the right leader, why not!

 

[DaveMcW]

So, to sum it up, he was Pleased, asked me to join him in a war, I did so and he was Friendly, he then made peace and turned around and backstabbed me, while still remaining Pleased.

Exactly. He won't backstab at Friendly, but you shouldn't let your guard down if there is risk of him dropping back to Pleased.

 

[MrFelony]

well there is a difference between sorta friendly and best buds friendly. I was in deep friendly with Ragnar, maybe ~+14 to +20. i was at a -6 because i declared war on him waaay back in 1200bc that never went away and because i was trading with his mortal enemy and i still had a good amount of breathing room. I'd say the best strategy for the crazy AI's is to help them find their worst enemy...besides yourself

 

[axident]

Kill 'em all and let the Replay sort 'em out. I always treat AIs as unreliable unless they have a long history of non-aggression (e.g., Hatty, Cyrus).

 

[zienth]

Exactly. He won't backstab at Friendly, but you shouldn't let your guard down if there is risk of him dropping back to Pleased.

He was down to Pleased after loosing the "Years of Peace", "supplied us with resources", "trade relations" and gaining the -3 "this was spoils". I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure he was Friendly when he declared war, and had been since I joined in the war against Darius. He was back to Friendly immediately after peace was imposed, even without the "years of peace" bonus.

I think this declaration was outside of the normal check for beginning a war plan, I think it was a due to a dogpile check, since I was at war with someone else at the time. But it was sure a silly DoW, I was higher in score, gold, production, crop yield, power, culture, and espionage. Significantly higher in most cases. Plus I controlled the AP, and had a significant majority of votes, so it was certain that I could stop him.

Personally, I think he was drunk at the time. I mean, look at him, the guy looks like a lush, with his dirty face and wearing that filthy green cloak and that rusty chainmail. Haven't I seen him hanging out in a park with a bottle of cheap wine in a brown paper sack?

Zienth

 

[sveint]

Never a boring game with Ragnar around

 

[The Sleepy Vike]

Look at the Vikings historically, that's how they dealt with people in real life.

 

[KMadCandy]

he's a total cheater. him, hannibal, and brennus ... they all carry elephants around in their pockets. i have never met them in a game where they didn't have ivory.

i can't prove that they're cheating, but i'm convinced of it. someday, one of them is gonna start in in the arctic and let his guard down. he'll set the jumbos loose on a tundra tile where they can't appear naturally. then i'll have screenshot proof of his misbehavin' ways! not that it will do me any good of course, but it might make hubby believe me *giggle*

 

[gallego]

A similar thing happened to me once with Churchill. I was Russia, and one of the biggest powers on my continent. I think Churchill was pleased with me, and was far behind me on power and tech. All of a sudden he declared war, and sent a small stream of macemen against my border cities--2 or 3 at a time. I picked them off gradually with my cossacks, until after a few turns, without taking any of his cities, I simply got him to become my vassal. He wasn't puny either; he had about 6-7 cities.

 

[Gooblah]

Yeah....In Vanilla, not so much. The only experience I've had like that was when I, as Louis XIV, was controlling a huge part of the map: The Eastern and Southern portions of my original massive continent, 2 small Continents to the Far East, and a Medium Island to the South of Alexander's Greek Dominated West. Southwest of the Southern Dip of my Continent was Genghis Khan. I had converted both to Judaism, and we were all Friendly. A mountain range separated Alexander and I, preventing many conflicts, and an ocean tile separated the two AIs. Alexander had IronClads, I had Modern Armor, and Genghis had Grenadiers. Alexander randomly DoWed on Genghis, and both were still Pleased. Neither asked me for help. They simply ended up with a stalemate, since Alex couldn't cross the ocean, but sent 3 stacks of 2 Cannons and 5 Cavalry at Genghis's one city on my Continent. Genghis defended well, and I got both at peace...until I surprised Genghis with a DoW and won a Domination.

 

[zienth]

he's a total cheater. him, hannibal, and brennus ... they all carry elephants around in their pockets. i have never met them in a game where they didn't have ivory.

Is that an elephant in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?

 

[Swedishguy]

I sometimes declare war on pleased AI's, even if there's cautious alternatives.

 

[CivCorpse]

Actually it was DaveMcRagnar that attacked you. As a financial civ he will attack anyone that does not build enough cottages. I once saw him build cottages on ocean squares.