Random seed/ save game abuse

[CivHobo]

I've been readin this forum for a long time, and gained a lot from the tips heres. Thanks ppl. But I never found any1 going for the low, to achieve a winning civ.

Does any1 else use this tactic to win a game?

I basically manipulated the preserve random seed-save function, in order to get an upper hand. Call it pre-determined luck.

Im playing this game as france with PTW 1.21f, conquest only, with mass regicide on regent level. I chose france because of the industrious, fiinancial and special unit attribs. The whole lot of leaders help to make it a super-expansionist too. lol. Whilst other civs keep their prized aristocracy at home. I used mine to nick goody huts and explore.

I always play on a pangea map to reap all the benefits of wonders.

Well anyway heres what happened...

Im situated on the left coast of a massive island shared with all other civs (15-1 {celts on a small island})

The island is shaped like a pair of saggy boobies. On to left Its me, the Germans, Japanese, and Zulu. And right in the its everybody else with england in the middle.

Ive gone through the game on a test run a *number of times* , and found it very difficult. It seemed every1 was getting a massive tech/production lead on me. I enjoy building wonders, but every1 else seemed to be getting those I really wanted first.

So I took the only course of action left to me....

The key as I saw it was, tech lead. I needed it in plenty, I needed it fast.

I set research to nill. I then proceeded to loot every hut, b4 any1 else could get their greesy hands on it. If it didnt give me a tech, I re-loaded the game, and waited until it did. I had seven leaders, I separated them into four groups. Group As' task was to harass the Japs and stint their exp. Group B was to do the same to the Germans, and C to the Zulu. Group D was to explore what was left and thereafter keep an eye on the english from a distance.

The 'preserve random seed' made everything more predictable. I found only a few things seemed to change the next iteration. That is attacking a unit and raiding goody huts. Even their mighty spearmen would fall to my 1-point leaders.

While I had my leaders keeping every1 at bay, I kept my cities on high production to produce settlers and my capital producing wonders.

I took a long time, but I optimized my savegame strategy, in order to make it less so. It saved me a lot of grief in the later stages in the game. Currently I'm in the industrious era, now with the nearest competitor four tech behind.

Thanks for reading.

 

[WildFire]

Thats about as close to cheating as you can get

You aren't going to get any better by loading the game knowing whats going to happen. If thats how you win, dont expect to get online agaisnt other civers and win.

 

[Hygro]

Mass Regicide eh? That's almost cheating when it comes to single player

I used to reload when a battle really pissed me off, but now I just keep playing (only if I forget sometihng really stupid do I reload).

 

[CivHobo]

B4 I start, I forgot to mention the measly Koreans were on the left breast too, but just after one harrasssment they just didnt do squat.

Hehe, ok I dont think I stand a chance against any of the players here. I heard the regent level was as close as u can get to level with the AI, but it was pretty tough for me.

A long, long time ago I didnt have to use this save-game tactic, when I mastered deity level in civ2. But it seems civ3 is tougher than that! lol

Even with all the perks, eg. mass regicide , I was still in a desperate situation, without the *savegame cheat* I would rank around second or third place. I know its wrong, but for some reason, I got a euphroic feeling from doing it. I could not stand the egyptions getting to all the goodies b4 me, and everytime I pipped past them, eg beating them to a wonder 1-turn b4 they finish lol, I got an immense jolt of satisfaction from it.

Thanks civers for responding.

I leave this last thought... If it makes u feel good it cant be that bad, can it?


****Evil Laugh*** muhahahahaha

 

[CivHobo]

B4 I start, I forgot to mention the measly Koreans were on the left breast too, but just after one harrasssment they just didnt do squat.

Hehe, ok I dont think I stand a chance against any of the players here. I heard the regent level was as close as u can get to level with the AI, but it was pretty tough for me.

A long, long time ago I didnt have to use this save-game tactic, when I mastered deity level in civ2. But it seems civ3 is tougher than that! lol

Even with all the perks, eg. mass regicide , I was still in a desperate situation, without the *savegame cheat* I would rank around second or third place. I know its wrong, but for some reason, I got a euphroic feeling from doing it. I could not stand the egyptions getting to all the goodies b4 me, and everytime I pipped past them, eg beating them to a wonder 1-turn b4 they finish lol, I got an immense jolt of satisfaction from it.

Thanks civers for responding.

I leave this last thought... If it makes u feel good it cant be that bad, can it?


****Evil Laugh*** muhahahahaha

Note. Ive incl. the game if any1 interested

 

[sorky]

i only save when i quit the game (a personalized name) or sometimes before making something important like declaring war.. (i save with the name the pc give me, with the date and all)

I often reload the turn before in ancient ages if there's a riot on a city..

 

[Hygro]

CivHobo, it's fine if you are having fun, however I was surprised that when in 2nd or third, the game is at its finest as you still can win but it's going to be a challange.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by CivHobo
The 'preserve random seed' made everything more predictable.

Quite the contrary. By reloading, you *know* you will get a Great Leader. You *know* you will get a treasure from a Hut. You *know* you will win the battle.

For me, the best aspect of Civ3 is the mystery. I don't know what is ahead. I don't know the map. I don't know the Civs I will confront. I don't know what will happen when I pop a Hut. I don't know the outcome of the battles, or whether a Great Leader will emerge.

Mystery makes each game unique.

 

[CivHobo]

Ok, ok I know Im not going to score points for being a savegame fanatic. So I might as well share a few more things I've done.

- I've saved the start of the game, and then 'retired' just to see where everybody else is. If any bugger is unfortunate to be in my prospective turf, I harass them. I know Im not going to get a rep hit, or suffer from war weariness so what is there to lose. Theres only much to gain from this. U can probably abuse this in multiplayer too. lol

- I've set up a system, where I have four saves numbered 1->4. Each is saved just b4 I make difficult decisions. I also have four other 'longer-term savegames' for when I believe would be a pivotal moment. eg rushing a wonder. If I know another civ will beat me to a wonder I do anything to *slow* him/her down. eg. get them into a war, or declare war on them and pillage the surrounding area around their best cities.

- Save the game, then do numerous expensive city investigations, to see what they doing. Then load back up the save game, with no money spent and vital intelligence gained, yeah baby.

Although I don't think I would cope with anything higher than regent, even if I were to use these *methods*. I enjoy using my god-like powers understand how they think and work. It's like putting a leaf infront of an ant column to see what they would do.

It just seems even on this level, the ai seems to have more of everything (research, troops, cities, and production), except for culture and savings. If i could only understand why they do the things they do more, it would improve my own strategies immensly. I dont ever let the game name the savegame for me, cause I find it more confusing than numbering them 1->4 for the sort of round-robin fashion I use them. Fewer words, more pictures suit me. lol

Yeah Hygro its not too bad being 2nd or 3rd, but I can't stand it when they build such beautiful great wonders, to know that eventually I would have to destroy their cities later on. Yeah, the ai suck at choosing the most efficient arrangment for their cities. I like to build my cities at distance in mesh like formation with all the potential they can have.

I know the point of choosing a higher difficulty level is to prove that u can beat them even at a disadvantage. But they cheat so badly, even on lower levels, they seem to know things about my civ, which to me seems impossible. For every game I've played at least once, would they send in a settler and spearmen into my turf to go to some far back region Ive isolated. How could they know theres this vacant space without knowing how the map already fans out.

It just seems more worthwhile building the best civ u can build to watch it take all the punishment it can take from all those shallow civs in an epic battle for conquest, even if u dont play fair. Sort of like giving your little brother fist cuffs in a playground slap exchange. haha, joke.

I've played once or twice, in what could be said as a lost cause. With like one city standing against all the odds and still survive, only for some civ to achieve the winning goal or for the game to abrutly terminate itself after 2050. Still it doesnt have the same feel as watching the game go by in a more dominant position.

Hmmm, Zachriel I guess for some this is why civ is more appealing, the randomness of it all, the diversity and possibilities, the mystery as u say. For me, I enjoy playing the game more with much more intelligence than that offered at the start. I reckon Sun Tzu should give more of an intelligence boost, which it currently does not. I want to be big brother for a change. To know more about the enemy.

Well its been interesting talking to u all. Thanks for responding ppl, signing off now...

 

[Siegmund]

CivHobo: I don't think you'll find many people here who enjoy actually *playing the game* the way you describe.

What you *will* find, is that people will perform *experiments* by methods like these, and use them to deduce how the AI thinks, by seeing what the impact of each small change is.

The difference is that, rather than continuing to play after knowing "too much", we just build up an understanding of what odds we face when we play the random games.

One of the strategy articles in the War Academy shows you a position, tells you how the AI would play that position, and tells you how a skilled human would play the position (and do better than the AI.) You may want to read that, too, and save yourself some frustration.

 

[CivHobo]

Ah cool Siegmund, Thanks, never really went to the war academy. Just read from the forums now and again.


Thanks, loaded up all those pages...

Q: why does 'Improving Your Opening Play' have a different look and feel?

Was having a tough time on deity. Those huts were awful. Now I know why.

 

[anarres]

CivHobo,

You really should hang around at the forums and post some more, it will improve your skills massivly. Playing the game without such hideous cheating will also improve your game.

If there is one thing that sure *not* to improve your game it's to carry on reloading and all those other little things you do.

 

[zebomba2]

One thing begginers are afraid of is ancient warmongering. It gives you land, techs, and maybe money and cities. Pick your fights and target locations wisely, however.
Remember, an ancient deadlock won't get you nowhere.

 

[CivHobo]

Hehe, anarres thanks for the tip. True it does get tiring loading the game everytime and again when things go wrong. But after I reach a more dominant position, usually in industrial era for regent, I dont really do it anymore. Nevertheless I will try to follow your advice, because u guys recommend it.

Point taken zebomba2. It is very easy to get into a war against a neighbouring adversary in deity. I was playing the Carthagians hoping the special unit would help me through the warmongering path earlier. I discovered the following things...

1) The Numidian Mercenary is a very good defensive unit. But its quite poor for attack. Maybe its a stroke of bad luck, or maybe the enemy units get a boost in deity mode. But I've had these veteran units lose countless times against regular warriors on flat turf. Perhaps I would a better chance playing as the vikings.

2) I was losing the war. Had around two cities, whilst every1 else had 6-8. It seemed as soon as they start a wonder, they complete it b4 I can say huh! My cities were surrounded by dozens of spearmen/archers/few remaining warriors, whilst I had 4-5 troops. Every1 was 6-8 techs ahead of me. Then finally after 20+ turns the evil spanish offered me peace. I adjusted the exchange and got all their gold, 3-4 techs, territorial map and peace. This has *never* happened to me! I guess I must have been crippling their economy lol.

3) Theres no point in spending money in research, as far as the ancient era is concerned. It seems they have better luck with goodie huts than I do.

4) Despite perhaps being in the last place or something, not even getting one wonder, or having a chance of capturing a few cities. I still think I can hang in there for atleast until the end of the era. Mainly because of my nm's. There is a slight optizmism, but Im going to start again, with fewer AI players and until the game can generate a more favourable starting loc.

So Im just wondering. Have u guys played deity level, on conquest. Do u notice that the enemy units are *unusually* stronger than other levels? and is it possible to survive past the ancient era at this rate?

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Sirp]

CivHobo: Yes people do play conquest on Deity level, and do win, without cheating.

As long as you're not playing in any tournament games or succession games, I don't really see anything wrong with playing the way you describe. Sure, it's cheating, but if you enjoy beating the computer by cheating....well good for you

When you do finally get bored of that, try playing *without* any cheating. It's SO much more fun

-Sirp.

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by CivHobo
So Im just wondering. Have u guys played deity level, on conquest. Do u notice that the enemy units are *unusually* stronger than other levels? and is it possible to survive past the ancient era at this rate?

It is a well proven fact that the combat system is fair, it uses the stats of the units and nothing more.

 

[Hellfire]

In support CivHobo, as long as you enjoy the game, you should do what you find comfortable. It is only a game after all. It does sound like you regret this tactic a bit. I can tell you if you decide to play against other people, or if you want to improve your own skills, you'll have to drop this tactic.

I have to admit I do something similar. The only time I restore is if I like the position of my Civ, but I get trounced in the game, and then I restore back to my 4000 BC save only. Yes I know where the resources are, but I haven't memorized them. Plus when you like a starting point you like it, I'm all about the poetry and style of the game and some places are just so much nicer than others

I currently don't have plans to play with others online as I have personally given up online gaming as something far too frustrating, and Civ3 is enough of a time sink as it is

I saw please play how you like, and enjoy the game. You may find however, that such a tactic will lower your overall enjoyment of the game, as this tactic will get tiring and you'll put the game asside sooner. Balance the challenge of the game with your frustration level, and you'll probably find a balance somewhere in between where a specific tactic is acceptable, but other far easier tactics are not and yet you still win often enough to keep your enjoyment up.

 

[CivHobo]

Well cheers for all your help anyway. Ive restricted my saves/loads when I need a rest from the game, or when it goes tits up.

haha, thanks for the confession Hellfire cheered me up a bit. lol

Thats it from me. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Rkturney]

I have done this save and retry thing also but at times it seems to be a worthless strategy as the out come of, say a individual combat, will usualy be the same eg. if you lose the combat no matter how lopsided ( tank vs. warrior ) you will still lose.

only seems to be really helpful when you make a major booboo.

 

[Lochlann]

I just want to post a little defense of CivHobo. Kudos for having the guts to admit all this; I'm actually a little surprised that more people haven't chimed in with "cheater, come back when you really play" and garbage like that. Kudos to the others here, who all seem to understands that enjoyment of the game is personal and subjective.

Now, I must say that I do exactly what CivHobo does when I'm in certain playing moods...only I do it to a far greater extent. (Saving after every single turn, rotating 7 saved-game slots, dedicating slots to "pre-war", "pre-battle", "pre-wonder", etc.) Sometimes I sit down and I want to play a "dominate" game. Usually I want to play for real, with the random seed preserved and no loading except for obvious gaffs ("No! I didn't mean to disband that army! Argh!!!"). But sometimes, you know, you just want to kick butt, straight out. How could anyone else dare to say that I can't have fun doing that?

You know what it is, though? Seriously, I've thought a lot about this. There are some people who like to play the game to compete, to test their strategic abilities against the computer or other players. Then there are others who like to play the game as an art form, testing their own creative might against a static environment. When I'm in this mood, I just want to sit down and try my hand at creating the most beautiful and perfect civilization imagineable, much like sitting down in front of a blank canvas and painting. In this sort of play, competition doesn't really play a role; this isn't "cheating" because the goal is not to test your abilities against another. The goal is to see how awesome an empire you can create, how perfectly you can mold the game environment to your heart's content.

So I disagree with the sentiment that the game is more--or only--fun with no save/loading. That presupposes that challenge and competition are the only gateways to enjoyment, which just isn't true.