Ranged artillery in Civ 5?

zhivago1970

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Aug 18, 2007
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I am glad that there will be some kind of ranged artillery in Civ 5. I am looking forward to seeing how it is implemented. Outside of the Civilization series, one of my all-time favorite games was the original Panzer General by SSI. I thought they had a realistic way of handling ranged artillery in defensive situations. For example, if an artillery unit was placed behind another unit (say an infantry unit), and the infantry unit was attacked by an opponent, the artillery unit would get a first defensive shot at the attacking unit. However, one the artillery unit had its one defensive shot, all subsequent attacking units would not be affected by it. For offensive purposes, depending on the strength of the artillery unit, it could fire at targets two or three hexes away.

Fall cannot come fast enough...
 
That's fine for modern Artillery, though on civ scale even a range of two tiles is stretching it and more than that would be bad. Its just that they appear to be considering using it for archers and catapults. If archers have a range of 2 tiles, what is the range of a howitzer? In the Napoleonic era guns fought very near the lines. In fact even in the American Civil War, most common field guns were fired at targets directly visible to the gunner. Only with modern artillery, starting with the french 75, were guns fired at targets too far away for the gunner to see. Even modern mobile artillery only has a range of 10 to 20 miles at best. An error of one order of magnitude or less I can overlook as an approximation, but when archers and howitzers have the same range I balk. Speculatively, if trebuchets have a range of two tiles, cannons will be three or four and howitzers, what ten? Intecontinental guns.

Having a range of one tile allows any amount of approximation because the battle occurs on the line. The stone age archer is shooting from 20 meters inside one hex, over the line, to 20 meters inside the other hex. Or, the civil war cannon or tank is shooting from half a mile inside one hex, over the line, to half a mile inside the adjacent hex. It doesn't matter because we are rounding off, as it were, no distinction need be made. It is far less distorting to leave it this way than the other.

The only problem with that, is that you have to have one unit per tile, so archers have to be two tiles away to shoot over friendly troops. You HAVE to have one unit type per hex, so that's just how it has to be.
 
Gameplay trumps Realism.
 
Sure we can, if each tile is 100 miles.
 
I completely disagree with you two.
Gameplay vs realism can only go so far before you reach absurdity as explained by Tholish.

A short bow archer can hit you at about 200 meters, a modern Russian mortar (yes, not even a howitzer but a mobile mortar) can fire a nuclear bomb at you from 20'000 meters.

So even if we avoid the parallel of the mortar having 100 times the range of the archer it would at least have to be a range of 3-5 tiles for any modern weapon in order for it to be effective. This combined with naval warships gaining similar ranges could work.
But I still dislike the idea of giving archers ranged attacks. The CIV4 First strike method did much better at approximating archers.
 
I'd much rather a fun game that stretches reality, than a boring realistic one.
 
If I want to learn about history I will sign up for a history class. Historical stuff is meant to be an added bonus. Only to be put n if it doesn't affet gamplay.
 
So if a tile is 100km wide and it takes my warriors 40 years to cross it, they are traveling at 2.5km per year? And that is supposed to be realistic?

Cmon people! If Civ used a realistic scale of size and time, you would have millions of cities and it would take many years just to complete one turn.

Please stop sacrificing everything at the altar of realism.
 
Yeah I don't get how people say this is such a stretch without seeing a problem with your armies being giants, or that your brand new city spans "100 miles." They're all just perceptual differences that make the game more playable.

I suppose it ends up just being a disagreement about where to draw the line between realism and playability. I bet that for those of you that think bombardment crosses the line would be pissed if the icons representing armies looked like ants, making them hard to tell apart. Even though that's more realistic, it sucks.

Now I'm not saying that stacks suck (though I do think that the huge mass of units late-game does, and I hope it is addressed in Civ5), but I am saying that sacrificing playability for realism doesn't make sense to those of us who draw our line elsewhere.
 
just like everything in life, there needs to be a balance. The figurative scales should balance realism and game-play. Can't make everyone happy.
 
I agree there needs to be balance beween realism and gameplay. I appreciate some realism, just as I appreciate gameplay. I do not want it going too far one way or other other.

As for ranged bombardment, I think 2-3, maybe 4, tiles would be acceptable for cannons and howitzers. Anything beyond that I would put in that newly created class of "inter-contintental guns". However, this is based on what I know of how the OLD Civs are with tiles, combat, etc... I have read that CivV will have a re-modelled combat system, so maybe scales and distances will be different in a combat setting. It is too early to tell.
 
I know I'll get smacked down for this, but I'm still hoping that combat will occur on a separate Tactical levels screen-like CtP I & II (only better ;) ). That would allow for ranged units whilst still allowing for a touch of realism.
Anyway, just an idea.

Aussie.
 
I know I'll get smacked down for this, but I'm still hoping that combat will occur on a separate Tactical levels screen-like CtP I & II (only better ;) ). That would allow for ranged units whilst still allowing for a touch of realism.
Anyway, just an idea.

Aussie.

Like Total War and the Heroes of Might and Magic series?
 
Having not played either game, I can't really say for certain. I remember Birth of the Federation did it pretty well though-if that helps.

Aussie.
 
So if a tile is 100km wide and it takes my warriors 40 years to cross it, they are traveling at 2.5km per year? And that is supposed to be realistic?

Cmon people! If Civ used a realistic scale of size and time, you would have millions of cities and it would take many years just to complete one turn.

Please stop sacrificing everything at the altar of realism.

Most of civ is rationalizable.

Campaigns are telescoped, sort of like one of those magnifying glass extracts on a map. There might be a thousand years when nothing much happened, except this war right in the middle that lasted ten years. What civ does is take that war and splash it all over that thousand years, project it onto a larger screen, which is what they are going overboard with in Civ V it loooks like. As long as things that interact are on the same scale with each other that's fine. The mesh works well. Building one more unit during on the war time scale and one more unit on the history time scale mean different things, but they are standing in for each other. On the war timescale it means frantically raising some troops. On the history time scale, it means building up military infrastructure.

Also, very early eras where turns are forty years, represent a time when the movement of a unit represents the long term migration of a tribe. Even in modern times when turns are a year represent the movement of units represents the movement of a unit, as in all the barracks and military families and move, which really takes a long time. Sure the troops of the 82nd Airborrne can parachute into Afganistan in one day, but it would take them all year to actually translocate the division there as its permenant location, lock stock and barrel.

Similarly, a "city" represents a region, the premier city of an area, and each improvement is a smaller city, with this or that economic emphasis.

Clearly we are willing to compromise and adjust if we play civ, but I think there's been a lot of science or art or luck that went into making it something we can adjust to, and some of those principles should not be thrown out with the bathwater. Very little sacrifice is required, and innovation is still possible. Premodern ranged units should have a range of one tile, and there should be a nice simple two unit per tile limit.

Then we can see battles as magnifications of what is actuallly smaller onto a big screen. But when an archer somebody forgot to upgrade meets a long range mortar and they have the same range that will clash no matter what.
 
These scale discussions are driving me crazy.
 
I know I'll get smacked down for this, but I'm still hoping that combat will occur on a separate Tactical levels screen-like CtP I & II (only better ;) ). That would allow for ranged units whilst still allowing for a touch of realism.
Anyway, just an idea.

Aussie.

Nooo, this new system will be much better, allowing more tactical battles on the strategical map itself. Far superior possibilities for a strategy game like Civilization. I don't see much difference between superstacks of Doom and huge armies wandering arround whiping eachother out in a tactical battle on it's own screen.
 
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