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Rant : The annoying BS factor of CIV IV

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Hooliday, Feb 7, 2008.

  1. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    The original poster should read obsolete's game, because he wins without cheating with early rushes.

    If you're teching up to construction and presumably code of laws, that's not a particularly early rush, and you could probably build granaries by then. I'm assuming you're skipping alphabet and possibly monarchy? And elephants require horseback riding in BTS, I think, so that's really a mid-game attack.

    I've been playing montezuma immortal warlords on a small map, because while conquering is easy with catapults, HOF deity level players apparently can pull off wins a lot earlier. They get things that I don't, apparently they know how to deal with protective leaders or mansa musa on hills or getting cities before 60% culture pops.

    To me the game is about understanding the nuances. Obviously what I do understand seems obvious, and what I don't isn't. I like the process of being a better player and learning about the game, and I see these forums as a way to help each other do it.

    Let me start here, since maybe you understand warring very well. Other than worker techs, what's your tech path? Are you running 2 scientists early to get to construction?
     
  2. Hooliday

    Hooliday Chieftain

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    Heya,

    Sorry about delayed responses. Life has been really stressful lately. Been more than i could handle at the moment.

    A lot of positive feedback, I get the feeling a lot people feel the same as me in many areas of the game. I'll write more in a little and try to answer your questions.

    Thanks!
     
  3. Hooliday

    Hooliday Chieftain

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    So yeah i'll try to post something now..

    My timing to goto war?

    Irrelevant. My timing to goto war is when im stronger than my opponents are. War is like expanding, except it is more beneficial for a number of reasons:

    1. The area around your high-level AI opponent is likely to be rich, especially when a war is aimed early and it bases around Capital city and a few other rich cities.

    2. It gives you the edge over your opponents, a larger landmass and eliminates rivals on nearby areas.

    3. Blackmail, the few remaining cities the AI has in remote locations are great for blackmailing techs.

    If you are an experienced player building an optimal amount of troops to make war is the most vital part of it. You do not want to get stuck on the countryside assaulted by horse archers and siege equipment to wear your ability to make war down. Secure the strategic keypoints of the map with small stacks advance with larger force. Do not allow AI use its roads to hit and run you down. You are not there to pillage the land, you are there to take everything he has. Seperating AI from his resources has nothing to do with real pillaging and crippling. It's smart play.

    Empty areas

    I could imagine people knew better. These are not just great places to settle late cities or let AI settle their cities on wasteland, but if you can isolate an empty area behind you, use it! With barracks, and possibly aggressive/charismastic trait you are one barbarian fight away from City Raider II Promotion. Or elephants, being immune to first strikes. It gives you the edge! Do not settle what doesn't need to be settled!

    My tech-path

    This was the most tricky question of all, as I cannot even remember the available tech-paths. Been so long since i've played. It doesn't matter because there is no need for optimal tech path. Maybe i did fast tech to construction for catapults. I remember not building great library. Didn't stop me from winning did it? I always run 2 scientists on cities, even marginal ones. Why? Because they give a ton of beakers compared to sad resources like wine or dye that come late in the game. I'm not waiting for my great engineer. Im going as fast as i can for the first great scientist. I do not have any faith in slingshots, fast maces or stuff like that. You simply don't need to risk your game for them.


    I hope this helped any! Thanks!
     
  4. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    The Early Rush is a great strategy, since it achieves what you pointed out, well, early! :D It gives you a long-term advantage, as long as you don't botch it up.

    Undergoing military defeats due to poor planning will result in one of two outcomes:
    1) You are put into a drawn out war. Screws up diplomacy with other Civs, and strains your economy to the point you are unable to tech fast enough to maintain an advantage. It results in MAD for both Civs involved.

    2) You make peace. Sounds good, but usually sucks. Because you spent all the previous turns making units, you have a poor economy since Libraries, Granaries, Workers, and Settlers have been forgone for the potential benefits of a won war.

    Outcome 2 can be resolved by careful planning, but even if you make peace in Outcome 1, you've destroyed your potential growth and have achieved Outcome 2 in an era where it is unresolvable.
     
  5. rabidveggie

    rabidveggie King

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    Plus in an early war it's harder for the computer to dog pile you for inane reasons forcing you to kill them earlier then planned.
     
  6. Hooliday

    Hooliday Chieftain

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    I noticed somebody asked for a tutorial.

    This would be time consuming, no? Especially explained step-by-step. I am not a master of this game, I cannot guarantee anybody would get anything out of it. I can't remember the last time I played. Top of all I have no idea how to picture/explain you everything. I don't think i could beat a deity computer if you are asking for a tutorial for world records. I am barely a regular player.
     
  7. Carl v.

    Carl v. Chieftain

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    Interesting and refreshing post. It shows humankind still make raw materials to produce a Ghengis Khan, an Alexander the Great, a Machiavelli... But since we in the meantime has got Civ, there should be no reason to fear an immediate attack on Poland.

    And as Hooliday points out; he was high and drunk. Also in this aspect he follows an ancient tradition: Never was a war fought by sober men.

    I can recognize some well known points in this post. Other aspects are so far away from what I have experienced, I cannot swallow this with head, fur an tails before I can see how it is done. And it seems others see it the same way.

    I do not ask for at tutorial, just some saves to illustrate the principles and enlighten us who do not have understood a thing – cowards or not. So I hope Hooliday will spend the necessary time to play another game according to the principles he describes, and share a few saves with us.
     
  8. UnlockPotential

    UnlockPotential Chieftain

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    Nobody is a 'master' player, people make 'walkthroughs' for games, but they are not perfect. Not many people could make a walkthrough to cover every aspect of this game as it has a way to make every game different.


    It may be time-consuming, but if you have time to come on forums, surely you have time to write a non-important walkthrough?
     
  9. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Slingshots, early rushes, UU-zergs are all nice things to try once, because you know when you can master it, you can use it when its needed.

    Think of a great football player (I refuse to call it soccer because americans stole the name for their brawl-ball sports :lol: ). This football player tries the same trick every time he gets the chance to to score, now obviously goalkeepers learn and they all learn what to do. There is no doubt this player is absolutely great at this particular trick but he is nowhere near as good player as the player who can execute this trick when it's needed.

    It's a simplification of my "Civ-philosophy" really. Gambits and gimmicks are good for learning to a certain extent but will eventually hold you back if they are abused. Until you know most of the game, learn. When you know most of the game, learn what you still do not know.

    To simplify it even further, unless I play a "theme-game" with objectives I made up myself there is only one rule I play by: Adapt. Even if you are the greatest builder ever, if the Mongols are rapidly eating Civilization after Civilization and getting closer to your borders - you get ready for war to face him or you die. Unless you can get a fast alternative victory before he eradicate you.
     
  10. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

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    You bring up a lot of good points, like what you said about players RELYING on certain things to win them the game, whether that be Pyramids, Praetorians, the Feudalism slingshot, etc. That is not a good thing to do.

    However, you make quite an ass out of yourself and it's clear that you at least halfway made this post to show off your own supposed skill. The first half of your post was fine, you were referring to situations that others might be in, and giving advice and pointing out flaws. However, you quickly degenerate into a "I conquered the whole AI in a dozen turns on WTFIMBA difficulty," and "Everyone else sucks at this game," and then at the end you say that you "suck but you could take the AI on Immortal the first time you played this game." To me, that's not the definition of "sucking." If it's easy to you, that doesn't mean you suck. Some people just have natural tendencies to be better at things than others.

    To address your "rant," (see: boast) you are free to play the game how you want to play it. Just because you can win a domination victory on Immortal easily doesn't mean that the way I play and fail miserably on Monarch trying for a culture win is the wrong way to play. It's challenging and fun for me, and I'm always learning, so yeah, go ahead and give advice about rushing on Immortal. If I ever want to try to win like that, I'll take a look.

    One last thing that I (and others I'm sure) take offense to: You accuse this whole community of save-reloading to get a perfect starting location, to get the best combat results, to not lose scouts early, etc. How dare you make such a blanket statement. I know I can speak for plenty of people when I say that many of us don't do that. To me, doing that gives the game more of an artificial feel, and it's less gratifying when I accomplish something if I've set myself up perfectly for it. I will admit, sometimes I get frustrated with the RNG and reload, but anytime I'm doing that means that I'm losing. Almost without fail, I end up losing that game anyway. I NEVER reload my starting location.
     
  11. rabidveggie

    rabidveggie King

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    Ya when I see someone has built the pyramids online it puts a big bulls eye on them since it means they haven't built as many troops. When someone is Roman you expect a rush and put cities on hills and churn out axes.
     
  12. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    One note: even if you do pick an apparent "super rush civ" or w/e like Egypt, there's no guarantee that you will even get the resources to build your UU!!! I picked Egypt in the game I am currently playing in part because I really enjoy having a strong UU... but I started near Rome who not only gets Iron for Praets but also TWO HORSES!!! :cry:

    So that sux... but meh, he made the mistake of invading me and I am beginning to finally win our age long war ;)

    Also I was reminded of how nice the Spiritual and Creative traits are - Spiritual is nice for fast temples (a few religions in my cities) besides the no anarchy of course, and I love creative for getting my cities the land they need STAT.

    Aside from that I picked a few posts and responded:

    If you can't even remember the last time you played you hardly seem relevant.

    Hail Colonization! I really enjoyed that game when I was younger, cool to see someone else remembers it :lol:

    This isn't real groundbreaking but it seems like the Native American civ would be a real strong counter to Rome... what with buffed archers and a sick ownage unique unit (gotta love those +100% vs melee dog soldiers).
     
  13. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Colonization is THE . .. .. .. ., would be cool if someone made a Civ 4 mod to recreate it!
     
  14. Morgrad

    Morgrad Attack Rodent

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    QFT.

    Stating that you haven't played the game in longer than you can remember (and given the admission that you were high and drunk when you wrote the post, perhaps you played last week) just demonstrates even more so that you came here to troll, realize what a fool you've made of yourself, and are now trying to back out of it.

    Whatever dude - some good discussion came out of it, so there is that....
     
  15. Ambidexter

    Ambidexter Edjumacated Idjit

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    I once lost a game on the 10th or 12th turn because I had my warrior exploring and Montezuma's warrior came into my undefended city. That game I seriously considered reloading. Other than that, I've never thought about a save-reload, let alone doing one.

    There are players who save-reload on a regular basis. I'm sure there's even a few who use the world builder to give themselves fantastic starting locations. However, I believe that most of us don't do that sort of thing. It's like cheating at solitaire. What's the purpose of making sure you win every time? Cheating may appeal to some people, but I'm sure it's a small minority. Either that, or I'm extremely naive.
     
  16. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Eh? Don't AI civs always make peace at first...???

    and sorry but what does QFT mean :o
     
  17. Ambidexter

    Ambidexter Edjumacated Idjit

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    QFT = Quoted For Truth
     
  18. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Ah, thank you.
     
  19. DutchJob

    DutchJob Prince

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    you sum him up.
     
  20. dante alighieri

    dante alighieri Warlord

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    Just one question...how much did you have to drink when you typed this?
     

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