Rapidly Expanding with Raging Barbarian Maps

Spoonwood

Grand Philosopher
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For those of you who play as warmongers or have gotten use to playing with barbarians on raging you probably already have your own sufficient strategies for dealing with raging barbarians *while* setting yourself up for later in the game. Still, discussion and thought might help. I don't know how this will work for Deity or Sid levels, although I have had success with this in Monarch and Emperor level games and some success with the time I tried it on Demi-god with this. I haven't tested my thoughts throughly, but from the games I've played the following might help. I primarily play as a builder without any barbarians at all, so dealing with raging barbarians has provided somewhat of a challenge for me. I feel sure there exist some weakness in my strategies somewhere, so please add on if you like.

First off, the goal here doesn't lie in *just* vaniquishing all the barbarians. It lies in rapidly expanding your empire as much as possible AND getting rid of barbarians, and making sure that those barbarians never reappear as soon as possible. By this, I guess I mean that we prioritize expanding and building new cities over barbarian hunting. The real challenge here lies in ReXing your empire *and* not losing a single worker, having a town sacked, and hopefully not losing any military either (more ambitious). If you play as a builder you'll have to learn to put your playing style partially on hold until, although partially you can start building ASAP and might want to do so. I'll explain what this means and how I do this more down further.

You'll want a settler factory (look for the tutorial on this if needed), almost surely in your capital. You can build some warrior scouts to see where luxuries lie and get early contacts, but I wouldn't suggest having them go out all that far, since they'll just get sacked by barbarians. Also, unfortunately, since we don't want to lose a precious settler (in shields and population), we need a strong escort for our settler. A warrior simply will not do, as a conscript-level barbarian horseman can easily vaniquish your escort (and thus your settler), and even a conscript-level barbarian warrior can succeed in slaying your settler. An archer escort might work but I haven't tried them as escorts. Also, I wouldn't risk it myself since you could miss seeing a horseman, even with two warrior scouts nearby, and have your archer (and thus your settler) easily destroyed. So, you need spearman, or their replacements, as escorts. Unfortunately, since you have raging barbarians, you'll almost surely need a *strong* escort for your third city, and even though you might succeed in founding city number two without an escort, I wouldn't recommend it, since it can quickly get sacked thereafter. Your second and third cities will build spearman-escorts, but for a while unfortunately, you'll need your capital to do all the work.

The upshot of all this implies that the sort of settler factory you have comes as a special combo factory, or you change your capital's food rate so that it grows slower. You might love the 4-turn settler factory, but unless you play as the Sumerians (more on them further down) *and* have some good bonuses, go for a 6-turn or 7-turn combo settler factory. For a 6-turn combo factory factory you need at least 7 shields at size 5 and 10 shields at size 6. Of course, that already seems hard enough to find, so maybe you need to slow your settler-escort building down to every 8 turns with the first 4 used for a spearman and the last 4 for a settler. At least, until your second and/or third city finish some spearman. Still, with the 6-turn settler factory you build a spearman on the first three at size 5 (given 7, 8, or 9 shields), and then a settler at size 6 with 10 shields and there you have your settler with an escort for your new town. For some games it might work out better to forego the granary and just build slower and start building a bit earlier, although I haven't done that myself.

In terms of city placement, I usually go for optimal or near-optimal city placement. The CXXXCXXXC pattern (as opposed to the optimal CXXXXCXXXXC) might work, but I haven't tried it and it seems a bit of a handicap for this project. For your city placement, you can sneak up right next to a barbarian encampment and disperse it immediately by founding your town next to it (provided spear or equivalent escort, of course). However, since you want to set up your game in as best position as possible, you might still want to build your city a bit away from the encampment. Don't worry, you won't get attacked right away (this might not hold on the highest levels). The new city will then *immediately* start on a temple, or a library if you play as a scientific civ. Even if you hate the whip as a builder player, I suggest you use it ASAP to disperse that encampment via culture or just to expand your culture borders ASAP. You'll generally want to build temples in your 4th, 5th, etc. cities in the first ring *immediately*, and perhaps in *some* in your second ring.

Once the cities build a temple or a *cheap* library, then you'll need them to build swordsman (if you have iron), archers, maybe some spearman, or maybe even warrior stacks.. any sort of military you can get *fast*. Seriously consider building walls in the second ring citires and almost surely in the third ring cities. Sure, to a builder who usually plays peacefully, this may seem as a 20-shield waste, but somewhere around 500 B.C.E., sometimes a bit after, a HUGE rush of barbarian horseman will come looking for you, your money, and your people, and you need to get ready. Walls would help against this onslaught. I've read that you can place three spearmen in an outer city with walls and win against the barbarian stack (or stacks).. meaning no gold lost. I haven't tried this myself, but it seems like it would work. If you've ammassed a large stack of spearman and archers/horseman/swordsman/catapaults you might want to attempt to hunt down this stack or any encampments at this time.

Now, remember we don't want to lose workers. Do NOT think that the warrior in your capital (you may garrison your capital with only a warrior, since it probably will only get attacked very earlier and not wait), can run out and help defend your worker. Forget that. For a while, you'll need to *always* (once you have the granary built about) escort your worker/stack of workers. An unseen horseman out in the fog might sneak up on your worker/workers and destroy it for a while. Once your captial has a ring of other cities surrounding it, you can lose the worker escort and set him to barbarian hunting or defending. Do not develop land with unescorted workers at the edge or near edge of your cultural borders. You may develop land with unescorted workers deep within your empire (here starting in a corner can actually help, since you only really need two cities to lose the escort).

Build cities EVERYWHERE ASAP. Think that spot on the hill next to 15 mountain looks useless and you already have the optimal number of cities? Think again, because you simply don't know if an encampment might pop on that mountain... and you simply don't want one there. The AI ICS can actually help a bit in this respect. Don't even think about building wonders, until the low middle ages when you've successufully culturalized all the land that you can. This seems obvious enough. Some exceptions might exist. The Great Wall, since this will help with barbarians, provided that you can get it, and if you have ivory, the Statue of Zeus (I haven't done either). Maybe the Pyramids might help, but they seem WAY too costly. Of course, developing a town enough to do this seems like a further difficulty, and you'll need time. If your overall strategy pivots off the Great Library, then of course build it, but in such a case try and build it as late as possible (and still get it). Stay conscious of barbarian's movements. You simply don't want them pillaging your developed squares in your capital. Always move along rugged terrain, such as hills, mountains, swamps, etc. with your units for extra defense. Try to stay off unforested grassland and unforested brown squares. If and when you go hunting barbarians down with archers or whatever, take a spearman escort or three with you. Expect to lose some galleys or curraghs at some point in one of these games (for dromons see below). I haven't built many catapults in these types of games, although perhaps they'll help. Don't try and start a war with an opposing AI civ. Two wars (the barbarians and the AI civ) *while* still building settlers and expanding your reach seems ridiculously complicated and difficult.

Here's how I rate the traits for this project:

1. Agricultural-The agricultural bonus most easily allows you to build a settler factory. On top of this other towns on rivers will grow faster, which translates into more production implying more military or faster cultural.

2. Religious-30-shield temples imply that one can rather quickly expand new town's culture to disperse, scout barbarian encampments.

3. Scientific-40-shield libraries also imply quicker culture. One also starts with bronze working, so one could beeling to ironworking and build some swordsman if available (I haven't done this myself).

4. Militaristic-I suppose one could build cheap barracks and then some veteran military to hunt down barbarian encampments. I don't really play as miltaristic though, since I play as a builder. Also, one then has to take the time and have the shields to build barracks, culture, and military. If you do build a barracks in a few cities, don't build settlers from those cities also. Stick to military as to not waste the barracks. Also, upgrade any warrior to swordsman ASAP, of course. Quicker promotions, also probably help a lot... maybe more than I think.

5. Expansionist-This seems pretty useless. Although, I suppose some scouts might help to *look for and find* some barbarian encampments, with the exception of the Chasqui scout, they simply won't help... they'll almost surely get sacked. Maybe you could pop a hut and get a conscript warrior. I guess passive barbarians (those found in huts) might also help for this.

6. Industrious-Since you have fewer workers at the start than on a no or possibly fewer barbarian game, you will at least get to develop your cities a bit more quickly for more production. Still, those workers will need escorts for a bit, and then afterwards they can only develop the inner towns.

7. Commerical-Marketplaces don't provide culture (tell that to professional advertisers or salespeople). Nor do they help with barbarian wars, when you don't have time to build them and the ability to build them, throughout almost all the ancient age. I suppose decreased corruption might lead to more/faster units or walls in outer towns, but I doubt it would help all that much.

8. Seafaring-Oh how I usually love the seafaring trait and archipelago maps. Oh how useless it becomes for the barbarian wars. What can you use the extra commerce in your coastal cities for? Getting to iron working/warrior code/the wheel/construction/literature/horsebacking/ceremonial burial riding a turn faster? I suppose that could theoretically help, but it really doesn't seem all that helpful. You certainly can't use the extra cash in despotism.

From this one might place the Celts as the best civ for the barbarian and rapidly expand project. I might rate them a bit higher than expected actually (with one excpetion... see below), since Gallic Swordsman have a movement of 2. Of course, they cost a hefty 40 shields, so they might not help all that much. Although, a well-timed barracks might help... if you can get the cash to do warrior upgrades. Greece would seem to rate low... but with the 3 defense hoplite I'd say they come out a bit higher than their traits indicate. Mayan javelin throwers of 2 attack, 2 defense might work well for hunting down encampments... but then again they cost 30 shields. Babylonian bowman at 2 attack and 2 defense seem like a better choice at 20 shields. This might screw up your upgrade path later, but at least you can hunt some barbarian's or destroy possible pillagers.

On an archipelago map, I'd say the Byzanties rate a little higher than just from their traits, since dromons can bombard everything. I'd suggest building a nice dromon navy with the Byzantines. With the Byzantines one can bombard barbarian galleys, as well as bombard coast-adjacent squares and they can move four squares per turn. If there exists a huge barbarian stack in a corner near the coast, one can use the dromon navy to hold back or at least weaken this stack until one has enough military to destroy them. They also have lethal sea bombardment, so I suggest you always bombard barbarian galleys... this also won't harm your dromon, while attacking them might. Even with the Byzantines, I wouldn't waste time building a harbor since the barbarian military poses the biggest threat and harbors increase hitpoints (and I don't think they increase bombard ability).

Carthage would seem to place very low also, but Numidian Mercernaries at 2 attack and three defense might help. Unfortunately, they cost a hefty 30 shields while replacing spearman. Still, with a rather-well placed capital you can work this out very well. You'll need your capital to produce 10 shields at size 5 and while having two food bonuses (with a granary). Then, on the first three turns it builds a Numidian Mercernary. On the last three it builds a settler. If you can do this, and your other cities can get early high shield production for more Numidians, you might just not get sacked anywhere and hunt down those encampments with those Numidians and get some promotions. Add on top that that you probably won't need warrior code or iron working since you have your Numidians.

Again, the Celts might work out easier for all this than their traits indicate. But, then again... well this one I think might seem obvious. The Sumerians have scientific and agricultural as their traits. That sounds great already for ReXing with raging barbarians. When you add on top of this, the 1 attack, 2 defense enkidu warrior, the effect becomes pronounced (in my opinion). With your capital producing 10-shields at size 5, and with only two extra food squares (on a river, of course), you have a 4-turn spear-equivalent factory combo. You build an enkidu warrior at size 5 on turn 1. Then on turns 2, 3, and 4 you build your settler (the difficulty lies in finding enough shields and food... although two food works much easier than three... two cows on grassland will suffice in which case you can mine both cows instead of having to irrigate one for the 4 turn factory combo... this produces 4 shields already, and with your capital giving you one shield, you only need two bonus shields and a mined grassland or irrigated plain). With this your settlers will move with enkidu escort and you'll have a settler every four turns. New towns can then build more enkidus for more defense rather quickly. Maybe move those extra enkidus right up next to a barbarian encampement and fortify them on a hill, and wait for them to attack.

*In general*, don't attack barbarian encampments with regular warriors. I think it better to fortify them or spearman near an encampment and wait. I wouldn't suggest using veteran warriors either since you might lose one. Elite warriors almost surely will win... though of course some exceptions may exist. Remember, the idea here lies in NOT losing a single unit (or as few as possible), not having a single tile pillaged, not having your town sacked and losing gold. This really implies, build some cheap culture to disperse some encampments or discourage them from reforming, think VERY selectively about wonders, and even if you usually play as a builder or want to later... BUILD A MILITARY. You really don't have much of a choice. Once the low-to-middle ages hit maybe you can upgrade some spearman to pikeman in which case you've got better defense for the rush. Or maybe not. Anyways, about this time you probably will complete or come close to completing your ReXing phase, in which case there exists no more squares for an encampment to pop up... at least... not on your landmass (with the maximum number of AIs around). Then... and only then can you get back to playing however you usally like to play (warmonger, build towards spaceship... kiss butt for diplomatic... build culture for a cultural victory, etc.). The ultimate challenge, in my opinion, lies in doing all this on an isolated archipelago map *all by your lonesome* on a rather large island. In other words... no AI civs out there hunting down barbarians with extra units. Hopefully, once you hit this phase of the game you've rid of all the barbarians and set your empire up with lots of cities for resources, luxuries, etc.

Please feel free to criticize or suggest strategic improvements.
 
I have not read all of the, yet. I can however say a few things about Sid and barbs. If you are not alone on a landmass and are not on some giant map or playing with fewer than standard opponents, barbs are not a concern.

This is due to the AI starting with 12 warriors or archers, depending on traits. The AI will wipe out barbs in a very short order. I have had them show on my door step in a remarkable time frame.

If you are in fact in a game where you will have to deal with barbs on Sid, Deity is the same, you have a problem. That is because you have zero bonus Vs barbs. On Monarch it is 100. On Chief it is 200, so you kill them with ease.

This means I do not attack barb with warriors, as they will mostly kill me. I do not attack with archers, unless I feel I must or the archer is elite. I do not attack barb horses with horses either, unless I must.

I will use MW or some of the other early UU's and in fact that is one of the reason to select a civ at Sid. At emperor, you use prevention. You just do not have fog very close to you. Park units out there to bust fog and give you an early warning, if you have that much land.
 
I'm kind of similar to VMXA, in that I don't see Barbarians as an issue. I just turned them up to Raging in my games, but I still hardly notice them. In my most recent game as Portugal both my Scouts - or maybe I had three - got killed by them, that's all. Luckily they had done a fair bit of scouting by then, so I was Ok with losing them.

Expansionist you're rating far too low in dealing with Barbs. Point one is it's not possible to pop Barbs when you're Expansionist. A related point is, because you'll pop something else, the chance to pop a Warrior is bigger, and that means you'll have more escort possibilities.
By the way, I don't think a lot of people will agree, but I find a Warrior the best thing I can pop, apart from a settler that is. I rather pop a Warrior than a tech, because the more Warriors I have, the more I can concentrate on expansion. The techs I'll get by trading anyway.

Apart from that, you've written a decent strategy article here. The scope of your article is a lot broader than just how to deal with Barbs!
 
I can see how a conscript-level warrior can help if you can upgrade it to a swordsman. And perhaps if you move that conscript-level warrior along mountains and hills it'll win some barbarian fights and get a promotion or two. But, I certainly wouldn't use a conscript-level warrior to defend a city, settler, or worker. Theoretically, due to AI bonuses, it makes a whole lot of sense that barbs get whacked so earlier by AIs on harder levels that you don't have to worry about them... if you have a neighbor. I partially intended this article (probably already done in some ways... but I really didn't find much on fighting barbs around here... and what I found contained little) to get a player to have the ability to completely vaniquish the barbs all by his/her lonesome... while ReXing. Barbs can pose a significant threat in monarch, emperor, and at least some demigod games. I suppose some of those mid-level games provide a few unique challenges which you don't find in upper-levels. So much for ordering difficulty as chieftian then warlord.... then sid, for all missions and sub-missions.
 
Definitely make sure your workers and settlers stay safe, but I let barbs ransack my outlying towns all the time. During the time of the game when barbs are relevant, I won't have much money in the treasury anyway, so I let them take their handful of coins, and then the barbarian is gone. I find that approach much more cost-effective than building lots of troops or unnecessary culture.
 
A conscript warrior isn't worth the upgrade cost upgrading to swordsman. Only Vet warriors.
If I pop a warrior, use it scout even more, eventually disbanding it once I no longer need it.
 
I play Emperor, and I get demands a lot in the early game. I give in to those. In my last game as Portugal, I popped quite a few conscript Warriors. I didn't receive a single demand from the AI...

I believe you're right, Lefelhocz, if you say the Barbarians pose an extra challenge on mid levels.
I think the level they give you most bother is Monarch: lower you have so much bonus towards them, higher the AI will mostly take care of them.
 
Definitely make sure your workers and settlers stay safe, but I let barbs ransack my outlying towns all the time. During the time of the game when barbs are relevant, I won't have much money in the treasury anyway, so I let them take their handful of coins, and then the barbarian is gone. I find that approach much more cost-effective than building lots of troops or unnecessary culture.

There's some good stuff in the OP, but in most situations this will be the dominant strategy. Particularly when the medieval uprisings roll around; having a 25-strong barb horse SOD sack one of your junk towns is usually no more damaging than having one stray barb axe sack that town.
 
I simply detest the idea of letting my towns get sacked by barbarians even if it works. What emperor so blithely lets his people get attacked like that? O.K. maybe you can find a few... and maybe the good of the many outweigs the good of the few... but still, I don't like it.

Does anyone think this article good enough for the new war academy system... say if I limit it to mid-levels or some higher-level archipelago maps?
 
Well, don't think of it as a town getting sacked, but more as your town holding a party to make friends with their new, less sophisticated neighbours. See, now it's not the act of an uncaring despot, but the policy of an enlightened, cultural, outward-looking peacemaker. These festivals might cost a penny or two, but a good ruler must know when to be generous as well as when to be strict.
 
Those conscript warriors may not fight so well, but they MP as well as a "real" warrior. If it's convenient, switching a conscript and a "built" regular or vet warrior works as a peculiar sort of upgrade.

Later on, of course, they disband for two shields just as well as a real warrior too.
 
Nice article! :goodjob:

I once, for fun, tried a Sid map. I gave the attempt up pretty soon as impossible because of the barbarians as I found that barb warriors had little or no problems taking out Enkidu warriors.

I'd say you have to divide your strategy into two parts - defensive and offensive or, if you prefer, passive and active. The defensive/passive part deals with how to prevent barbarian camps forming too close, getting early warning and setting your civ up in such a way that you can take military countermeasures and generally preventing barbs from doing damage to you and yours. The offensive/active part is taking the battle to the barbarians. The principles of this, such as making use of the barb preference for the NW-SE axis, can be learnt at the lowest levels with warriors. But I agree with VMXA that you need a tough and, preferably, fast UU to deal with them from, say, Monarch/Emperor and up. MW and GS seem ideal for the job, NM adequate, but the best option would be the RL with its 3-3 statline as it would be excellent for both the offensive/active and defensive/passive part of the overall strategy. You build vet warriors from cheap barracks and upgrade to RL as soon as you can. Here, the com trait of the Romans helps too.
 
I once, for fun, tried a Sid map. I gave the attempt up pretty soon as impossible because of the barbarians as I found that barb warriors had little or no problems taking out Enkidu warriors.

When you are playing Sid, shouldn't the RNG be biased in your favor ;)?
 
There's some good stuff in the OP, but in most situations this will be the dominant strategy. Particularly when the medieval uprisings roll around; having a 25-strong barb horse SOD sack one of your junk towns is usually no more damaging than having one stray barb axe sack that town.

I've had that happen to me once: lost ~1500 gold (bee-line to Glib strat worked that one game) in one interturn.

I think you're being too paranoid. I usually play with raging barbarians (~Emperor-DG), and the only problems they give me are when the uprisings happen. I just make sure I've fully scouted every place I'm sending a settler to and try to get a spear as an escort. Soon, I can afford to put ~6 horsies and 2 swords on barb duty, and still go pummel one of my neighbors. When I'm about to get into the middle ages, I step up my horse production if I haven't already and try to have ~20 horsies, ~6 swords, and ~6 spears around the edges of my empire just in case. 90% of the time only one barbarian SOD attacks me, and my mobile horsies can easily pound them and retreat to spear/sword cover as soon as the barbs get close to my road network. I actually kind of like raging barbarians, because once you get cavs/infs you can get a guaranteed ~50gp per turn with no losses out of that huge desert in the middle of your empire that you didn't want to settle.
 
I would say submit it as is, and let the moderators decide if they want any changes.

While this is true, if you want my personal opinion on the matter: I think there are already a bunch of articles in the WA that I think shouldn't be there.
 
Most of the war academy articles are outdated anyway, unless you play vanilla. Some that deal with basic game issues are fine, since some things never changed between versions, but others only apply to vanilla. Hopefully being allowed to add material might fix that.
 
Since submissions have closed this article came about because of COTM48 with the Byzantines on Demi-God. I now prefer a far simpler strategy... and it seems far more effective.

1. Build your settler factory.
2. Build warriors in most of your other towns... maybe a settler at some point... and a very, very small handful of workers at some point also... but mostly warriors.
3. Leave warriors in your towns only if you need them as military police, otherwise send your warriors out. Try to have them move in teams of at least 2.
4. Attack an encampment only when you have two warriors that can attack.
5. Try to attack horseman as much as possible, and try to get horseman to attack you as little as possible.
6. Try to use the mountains to "keep an eye" on as much territory as possible, so few new encampments pop up.
7. Try to use some warriors to found "settler corridors"... lanes or areas that all look "light " instead of "fogged" with warriors standing nearby. Your settlers can travel down such a path with little to no fear of getting sacked immediately by an unexpected barbarian... and can found a town in an instant (usually) if a barbarian pops nearby.
8. When the middle age rush appears (hordes instantly appear when you hit the middle ages) don't even and try and fight them. On lower levels you might have enough of an army to defeat them. On higher levels, forget it... the middle age hordes come too early (at least for COTM 48 they did). Buy luxuries, technology, city improvements, more warriors... whatever you can from the AIs or *find a banker*. Sell a tribe 400 gold for 19 gpt or something like that and take smaller hits from the barbarians than you would have otherwise and get your cash back.

So, basically the strategy comes as forget culture except if you really, really need it on some border town. Forget building lots of early workers... build a skelton crew of workers if say you need to build the Great Library and basically no more. Pump out those settlers, but not too many or too fast. *Build WARRIORS (not spearman, not archers, not catapults) like crazy*. If you get iron soon enough you might successfully do some warrior upgrades and have some swordsman... but if you don't... don't worry... you only really need warriors... just a good number of them. This strategy I bet will almost always work, because it gives you sufficient numbers fast... since warriors cost only 10 shields to build AND barbarian warriors and horseman have only 2 hit points... so a regular warrior on the attack has the advantage over a barbarian warrior or horseman. Basically, I'd say to build warriors and settlers and go hunting/scouting for barbarians (you might need a curragh or two for some contacts along the way... of course). Try COTM48 with the Byzantines as a game for this.
 
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