Rationalism vs. Industry

[Trumtram]

Hey everyone!

Could someone tell me why I should ever prefer Industry to Rationalism? Yes, Industry gives gold and culture, something that Rationalism lacks. But at that stage in the game, isn't the Science explosion through Rationalism pretty much superior? I guess if you take Artistry it's even more obvious? Plus, being able to get Great Scientists much faster (and also to buy them with Faith) and getting a growth boost is always nice.
And I feel when the AI takes Rationalism it's pretty much needed to take it, too, if you want to keep up tech-wise?

But then again, I'm not an expert on all the mechanics. So, yeah, maybe someone could help me understand Industry better and when it is superior to Rationalism. Any input is welcomed . Thanks!

 

[Bromar1]

I go industry if I want the extra Trade routes. It's also good if you need to consolidate your conquests and want to build up your captured cities. Also instant buying diplomats costs go up super high in the later eras

 

[andersw]

Hey everyone!

Could someone tell me why I should ever prefer Industry to Rationalism? Yes, Industry gives gold and culture, something that Rationalism lacks. But at that stage in the game, isn't the Science explosion through Rationalism pretty much superior? I guess if you take Artistry it's even more obvious? Plus, being able to get Great Scientists much faster (and also to buy them with Faith) and getting a growth boost is always nice.
And I feel when the AI takes Rationalism it's pretty much needed to take it, too, if you want to keep up tech-wise?

But then again, I'm not an expert on all the mechanics. So, yeah, maybe someone could help me understand Industry better and when it is superior to Rationalism. Any input is welcomed . Thanks!

I agree, Rationalism is really strong, probably too strong.
There is a lot of science, happiness and flat yields.

 

[hokath]

Industry has big +% modifiers to all the important yields including Science---this is incredibly strong. In addition Gold (and by extension Production) will no longer be a concern.
Rationalism lets you buy Great Scientists. The other significant boost is the +% Science from Great Works, which can be good if you've been diligent (Tradition and/or Artistry before help a lot to get max value out of this)
If you have the To the Glory of God belief (allows purchase of Great Scientist) I think Industry is a lot better.

Spoiler :

 

[Trumtram]

Industry has big +% modifiers to all the important yields including Science---this is incredibly strong.

That is a good point that I considered in my current playthrough. The problem is the positioning of those yields in the policy tree. You need to unlock 3 policies until you get the science (and culture) modifiers, at which point a rival Civ has multiple policies unlocked in Rationalism with enormous yields.

TBF, I probably didn't choose the best way of playing, but in my playthrough with the Maya (Emperor) I was 2nd behind China, who were snowballing. I did everything to stay in touch with them and was only 2-3 techs behind (planning on invading them). They chose Rationalism first and when I got there, I decided to not "just" trail them and do something different with Industry. I have yet to unlock the science modifier in that tree and China is at Rationalism 5 now with a lead of 6 techs. I don't see a way to counter that lead, even though I selected the enhancer belief which grants you more science on science buildings and let's you buy said buildings with faith. I feel like I did well until that last policy tree and now they are pretty much gone.

Maybe it might be a good idea to at least switch the percentage-based modifiers from Industry around so you can stay more competitive?

@Bromar
Yeah, the trade routes are an argument, especially for the Civs that have bonusses combined with them. And I agree, if there are Gold problems, Industry is a good pick. But whenever I go through all the policies, I can't help myself in feeling much better off by picking Rationalism. Pretty much every policy in there is super useful and valuable, whereas I don't get too excited by certain Industry policies.

 

[hokath]

Although it feels like you are very far behind, the game is far from over at Industrial and lots can happen even if they are ahead in tech. 6 isn't that crazy in my experience. However if China is both ahead in Tech and also in Culture (do they have lots of Wonders? so, are they a Cultural victory contender and if so, is anyone a holdout? You?) then you If they have such a broad lead then hopefully you can get the upper hand diplomatically -- the AI always becomes wary of the leader I find.

This as someone who plays Emperor and is rarely in the lead (especially tech), but still manages to win a good % of games. Having said that in recent months, I've been playing with modified Industrial policy trees. You can see them in the first modmod thread in my signature.

 

[andersw]

Rationalism
was reworked a bit and slightly nerfed however, adopting rationalism is HUGE.
+5% science in all cities, 3/2 science hammer flat yield/strategic is so massive.
Every policy pick is a winner.
Faith buying scientists is amazing.
Only drawback is zero culture picks.
With all the science, boost on GS bulb and faith buy you can really use this tree to go brrrrr in the tech tree.
Industry
is +2TR and -5% gold. (yay ottomans) for opener
At this stage a lot of gold goes to upgrades (for me) so I wont invest much in buildings and production is quite good already.
Mercantilism is good but too deep down.
Only two science and a single culture pick in the entire tree.
Faith buying great merchants are meh.
How many buildings do you need to buy after public schools? as someone mentioned above, discount diplomats is probably a decent option, gl if enough CS survived this far.
Imperialism
Is better after rework (some time ago) but mostly a "win more" policy, I like Colonialism and Martial Law.
Civilizing mission becomes stronger the later you go.
Faith buy Admirals isnt that hot even if you have a massive fleet.

 

[Elite Spud]

Industry's final policy which grants extra happiness to each luxury gives absurd amounts of happiness, to the point where even the widest empires can go from 50% to 100% happiness in one turn.
This, plus all the extra gold makes it an incredible tree for stabilizing a previously overly-aggressive empire and holding onto military strength without committing to further conquest through Imperialism.

Broadway is also a solid wonder for culture victories with its theming bonus, and wider empires pursuing tourism through Sacred Sites, Artistry tourism from culture tiles, or other means can get a surprising boost from the trade routes.
Other competitive civs who go Rationalism tend to outpace me in science when I go Industry, but between the weaponized tourism and extra military/diplo funding I can manage with Industry, you have more unique ways to hamper a runaway than with either of the other industrial policy trees

 

[statusquo]

If possible i always chose reformation believe to buy all types of greaty people in Industral era and above, this kinda mitigate the problem with buying scientists, and potentially go Industry.. The cost of GP increase decently fast, but early few great scientis can allow you to catch up with tech and defend against some nasty military power spike, or secure some wonder or corporation. And yes, from long time i have problem with the fact, that from all three GP gave by industiral policy trees Rationalism has fare superiour.. I was tryinng to make Other policies work, but i was always ended up with liking Rationalism the most

 

[Lifeordeath]

Personally I usually go Industry if I'm playing either a culture or diplomatic game. Culture games like the extra production, and Diplomatic civs really appreciate the extra trade routes. Rationalism is (obviously) fantastic for most science games, but even for certain science civs (see Portugal) I prefer to go Industry. Certainly Rationalism can give a big tech lead but I'm of the opinion that Industry lets you do more with the tech you have, tech leads are nice but I think compared to vanilla civ v they aren't as big a deal, especially at this point in the game (late renaissance to early modern is roughly the time period I'm going through my 3rd civic tree, although it varies civ to civ and game to game). If anything Industry is my go to default for a 3rd tree if I don't really have a good reason to go another tree, which is usually purely due to going domination or hardcore naval warfare for Imperialism, or pushing fully for a science win for Rationalism. I see a lot more use cases for Industry in the majority of situations.

 

[statusquo]

Certainly Rationalism can give a big tech lead but I'm of the opinion that Industry lets you do more with the tech you have

When i play lately im trying to learn survive on Diety, and fightning against upgraded units is very scary and ineficient, so not being too fare behind in tech is crucial.
Obviously it depends which civilisations took Rationalism, and how low in the food chain are they.
But if one of the big one take Rationalismy, its hard to ignore it..

 

[GoreBush]

Depends on civ you play, territory you own, type of victory you pursue. Generally i think industry is more universal all-round choice that boost equally all aspects of your strategy. I prefer rationalism only when i go tall, have long time ago established big and developed cities, much food to maintain extra scientist slots ( and probably plan to freedom ). Industry is amazing for wide aggressive playstyles. With this branch you can afford many more newly aquired ( conquered ) cities approval-wise ( thanks to luxury happiness boost ) and can develop it dirt cheap and fast to bring it to that point where they actually start to pay dividents, not only expenses. If you have many forests and hills you can go heavy-production build with fealty-industry-order - maximixe your mines, lumbermills and %-based production bonuses and just process culture, science, whatever you want, effectively doubling it. With russian or german unique building you can make it even more effective. With ottoman unique building you dont even need to process science with your massive production - just build hordes of military units, throw it on your enemies regardless of losses, conquer new cities and lands and get your science as if you just process it. There are many playstyles depending on your situation

And dont forget - industry also has 25% bonus to science, it is not far behind rationalism