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RB3 - Clobbering Time, Monarch Warmonger Game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Carbon_Copy, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    623
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Difficulty: Monarch
    Map Settings: All default
    Civilization: Aztecs
    Opponents: 5 Aggressive AI opponents: Alexander (Greece), Genghis Khan (Mongolia), Tokugawa (Japan), Huyana Capac (Inca), Napoleon (Frace). This is one civ fewer than the standard for the map. I wanted all Aggressive AI civs but didn't want two Mongolias, so Kublai Khan sits this one out.
    Victory conditions: Time, Conquest, Domination.

    Requirements: Be prepared for a fight.

    Combat has changed a lot since Civ 3. And what better way is there to learn it than to get into some fights? And by some fights, I mean a lot of fights: I'm putting us on a continents map with five aggressive civs, and the only way to walk away victorious is by taking them down :hammer:

    Roster (and proposed turn order):
    Carbon Copy
    bed_head7
    Kylearan
    Daveshack
    Dwip
    Tidus444

    I will start this game tonight. The first two players will play 20 turns each, then everybody else will play 10. Let the team know that you've got the game within 24 hours, and you'll have 48 hours to finish your turn. We will be playing by the Realms Beyond Exploits list, and while there isn't anything on there right now, we should conform to it should anything be added between now and the conclusion of this game.

    And to tide you guys over until then, here's our starting position:



    Ivory, Cows, and Gold on a freshwater start. Pretty good, n'est-ce pas?
     
  2. nagash_wa

    nagash_wa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19
    Nice one, looking forward to watching this. War elephants right off... for a warmongering theme! :)
     
  3. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Clobbering time! Ha! Now that's The Thing(TM). ;)

    - Sirian
     
  4. Shillen

    Shillen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
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    2,122
    Location:
    MA
    Lurker comment: I'll be interested in this game. I played a fun game last night that was similar. It was a monarch game as Hatty of the Egyptians. I started off on a continent with just the Aztecs and myself on it. The Aztecs didn't like me right off the bat and sent a stack of 3 jaguars and 3 archers at my civ. I signed open borders with them two turns before they declared war on me. It was quite a war. War Chariots vs Jaguars. Of course in the end I ended up building more axemen than war chariots since the axemen were far more effective against their jags. But the AI's tactics were outstanding. They'd take 3 galleys full of units and drop them off behind the front lines to take my less defended cities. They also produced those jaguars at an insane clip. My axemen were killing most of them so I had a great ratio otherwise I would have been overwhelmed. Fortunately they didn't have copper/iron to build axemen of their own or I'd have been in trouble.

    Anyway, good luck with your game. It should be fun.
     
  5. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,538
    Location:
    Bonn, Germany
    Checking in...

    Looks indeed to be a nice start. Good mixture of terrain (high-food, -hammers, and -commerce), ivory for war elephants which I have a high respect for now after my solo game, and a health and happiness resource! :cool:

    -Kylearan
     
  6. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    No two ways about it, that -is- a sweet looking inland start! :drool:
     
  7. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

    Joined:
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    623
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    4000 BC - So far, the start looks fantastic. We will have Ivory in our camp, which is not only important as an early luxury, but as a means to produce War Elephants once we hit Construction. We also have gold on a hill and cows on the plains. This is quite the resource-rich start, and that almost makes up for those desert tiles to our northeast. I found Tenochtitlan on the starting tile and set us on the course for Agriculture. Not only does this let us build farms for those floodplains and cow tiles, and with such good tiles to work with, I expect to get some workers out there fairly early on improving them. Scout goes SW and discovers a second ivory, more cows, and the ocean fairly close by. I set Tenochtitlan to build another scout.

    3950 - While chasing after a goody hut, the scout notices horses and rice
    to the south of Tenochtitlan.

    3900 - Receive 30g from the hut.

    3850 - Tenochtitlan's borders expand, revealing Stone and more gold to the north, as well as spices to the west.

    3800 - Scout sees more Ivory and cows south.

    3750 - Agriculture learned, Mining begun.

    3700 - Nothing

    3650 - Scout completed, worker started

    3600 - pop two huts, receive ~70g between them. Southern scout encounters Alexander.

    3550 - Northern scout encounters ocean just past the hills north of Tenochtitlan. Southern scout encounters the Incas.

    3500 - Mining learned, Archery ordered up

    3450 - Somebody else founds Buddhism. I pop a hut and get a map of the lands west of Tenochtitlan. More horses, more stone, but the terrain isn't too palatable.

    3400 - Nothing

    3350 - Nothing

    3300 - Discover Archery, start on Bronze Working

    3250 - Worker completes, I start on a Warrior. Worker starts building a
    camp on the near ivory.

    3200 - Nothing

    3150 - Nothing

    3100 - Nothing

    3050 - Hinduism is founded in Athens.

    Warrior is one turn away from completing. Tenochtitlan is running a large food surplus, but don't let it grow larger than size 4 until we get more health and happiness modifiers in. We need to get some more scouting done. My northern scout had a nasty run-in with a lion a few turns back and has been ordered to rest until recovered. there's a lion somewhat close to our southern scout (though it may have wandered off), but just to be safe, try not to end his turn in the open unless you're sure you won't be attacked. I'm not sure whether that patch of land to the west is an island or if it's connected to our continent by a one-tile isthmus, but the land in between seems pretty wretched, albeit resource-rich. We need to start thinking about our first settler, though I'm not sure whether that ought to come before or after our second warrior.

    Another caveat is that we should NOT attempt to chop down any of those trees in Tenochtitlan after Bronze Working arrives. Right now they're adding a +1 health to offset the health penalty from the flood plains, and once Tenochtitlan grows to size 4, we'll need the 2 hammer tiles so that we can run high hammers/low food while keeping the city from growing to an unhealthy size. Once Bronze Working does arrive, we need to stop by Animal Husbandry and Wheel so we can hook up our cows and horses. After that, depending on the situation, we may want to go for Iron Working so we can start making some Jags :hammer:. Remember, since we're the Aztecs, our swordsmen don't need iron, so we don't even need to wait for the resource to get hooked up before we start making Jaguars.

    Attached is the save and the shot of the world map as we know it so far. It looks like we have been blessed with a multitude of resource tiles, if not much in the way of diversity.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Got it, will play tomorrow evening at some point. Hopefully I can check on the game sometime tomorrow morning in between classes as well, to ask questions if needed.
     
  9. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I have played most of my turns, and the first settler finished. I don't really want to make this decision alone so early in my Civ4 playing career, so I stopped (well, I have to go to class anyway) for input.

    Any ideas?
     

    Attached Files:

  10. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    No opinions? Well, don't say I didn't warn you that I don't know how to place cities in this game yet.
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
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    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Don't know if you're still waiting but here goes. Not that I have many answers yet either... :mischief:

    At least 3-4 plots away from the 1st city for one thing. Densities tend to be much lower in Civ4 than in Civ3 because maintenance costs skyrocket when you go over the optimum cities. Towards the nearest AI if we know of one, or near iron / copper, or best growth are the three main possibilities. The toward an AI strategy is at its highest value if you can keep them from spreading with the placement, for example to establish a choke point. You can't really deny them resources on most maps. When in doubt go with growth.
     
  12. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    2950 BC (2) - Our scout near Greece kills a lion.

    2900 BC (3) - Bronze Working completes, and I select Animal Husbandry as our next tech. A scout also finishes, and start on a warrior. I consider emphasizing production and building a warrior at size three, and then building the settler while still at size three, but I see no benefit, so I am going to let Tenochitlan grow to size four, build another warrior, and then a settler.

    2850 BC (4) - Our scout near Greece kills another lion, promotes, and I take the Woodsman I promotion.

    2750 BC (6) - Yet another lion killed, this time by a scout in the north, which also takes the Woodman I promotion.

    2700 BC (7) - Animal Husbandry done, now start on Wheel.

    2600 BC (9) - This time our scouts take care of a bear.

    2500 BC (11) - Wheel finishes, and now start on Iron Working!

    2450 BC (12) - Our scout down near the Inca now (was by Greece) unfortunately ends a turn next to barbarian archers, and died.

    2250 BC (16) - Another worker from Tenochitlan finishes, and considering our goals in this game, a barracks seems appropriate.

    2150 BC (18) - Run into barbarian archer on the way to settling. Uh oh. Well, change of course is due. Settler runs away, and I put the warrior on a forest across a river so our chances of winning are good.

    2100 BC (19) - Warrior survived!

    2050 BC (20) -

    Iron Working learned, and we have Iron very nearby. An archer completes in Tenochitclan, perfect timing to start our first Jaguar. And Teotihuacan is founded rather farther away than originally planned (8 tiles!), but in a pretty good spot, I think. It starts on an archer as well, as barb activity has noticeably increased.



    I stopped at 2000 BC, since I think that that is evening it up at 40 turns total. We have one turn to go on Masonry, which seemed like a decent choice for research. Only two turns anyway to research, so not really a big deal. Our scouts haven't made as much progress as I would have liked, but I kept on running in circles around barbs or stopping to heal.



    Nothing else too exciting to share. Sorry about the shortage of pics interspersed, but there wasn't all that much exciting in the middle to report.
     
  13. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Location:
    Bonn, Germany
    I couldn't voice my opinion about city placement as I was soundly asleep - it was night over here... :p

    Anybody else thinks that city placement is a lot more interesting and difficult than it had been in Civ 3? With the high amount of resources and the inability to chain-irrigate early (which makes fresh water a top priority for me!), it looks like there isn't *the* best spot for any given city anymore. I like that! :goodjob:

    Looks good so far; got it. Will play later in the evening.

    -Kylearan
     
  14. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

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    I do rather like the added difficulty of choosing spots. I feel like I can't have overlap anymore, as in my few solo attempts thus far, I have seen what too many smaller cities can do. Of course, settling eight (!!!) tiles away is far too many, or so I feel. But it grabbed copper and a cow, and looked like the best spot around, even if far off, so I went ahead and took it.
     
  15. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

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    I was busy at work, but yes, 8 tiles away is a bit much. Especially since it looks like there isn't much in the way of rival civs over there. I probably would have suggested we put our second city to the south to grab the horses. Iron really isn't much of a priority for us, since our swordsman doesn't need iron to be produced, but if we want mounted units, we'll want horses. We're one opponent short of what you'd usually see in a map this size, so we've got a bit of room to grow, but I'd still rather build towards our opponents and try to fill those areas in later rather than expand off to the side. As long as the Incas aren't closer than I think they are, I think we have pretty much the upper part of this continent to ourselves.

    Now, while avoiding overlap is more important than it used to be in Civ 3, I don't think we can let those tiles in between Tenochtitlan and Teotihuacan go to waste, especially with the gold hills in between. We can fit a real monster city (or perhaps two, offset north and south) in that gap. With all those floodplains at Tenochtitlan, I think we have our settler/worker factory set up, we need a city that can crank out hammers.

    As for research, now that we have Iron Working, we ought to be researching techs that get us closer to War Elephants (that is, towards Construction). Once we get a coastal city, we probably ought to start getting the boat techs, but this is a game where I think we de-emphasize the religion branch and pick up military and worker techs instead.
     
  16. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Chieftain

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    I did put that city there with the assumption that we would put a city up on the coast on the river and then down to the south a bit along the river to use the tiles in between. It is just that at this time, the spot I chose was probably the best in terms of production/health. My original plan was to go for a city to get the horses and cow, but that spot was only three tiles from the capital. And a city that got only one of those would be rather weaker than the spot I settled. Of course, the settling towards the Greeks is a good point, but it seemed in this game we might be hedging them back a bit before running out of land became an issue anyway, so I decided not to base where to settle on the position of the Greeks.
     
  17. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    It had escaped me that we were playing this game at quick speed - I already wondered why we were researching and building so fast! :eek: I would have preferred the game to be on normal speed, but on the other hand I haven't tried quick speed yet, so this is a good time to see how it will play out.

    1950BC (1): We learn masonry. I ponder taking horseback riding next for horse archers, which are nice against enemy archers (immune to first strike!) and catapults (+50%), but since we haven't connected our horses yet, this can wait and I start research on writing instead.

    1900BC (2): Wow, lots of barbs running around. Good thing our jaguar is completed! Our capital is size 5 now, and I order up a settler next.

    1750BC (5): We learn writing, and I start pottery next for cottages. Teotihuacan completes the archer, and starts a library next for border expansion to get access to the cows. I could have built an obelisk faster, but I figure a library will do us more good, even if it takes longer.

    Now that Teotihuacan is sufficiently defended, I set it to emphasize food and commerce. I like to let my cities grow ASAP before emphasizing production.

    1700BC (6): One of our workers starts a long road to Teotihuacan.

    1650BC (7): Tenochitlan completes settler, starts a jaguar. It has reached maximum health, but because it has a lot of excess food and is happy enough to support more citizens, I don't stop growth yet.

    The settler and the jaguar head south to the horses and the rice.

    1600BC (8): Our glorious scout has killed yet another barbarian warrior! He earns the Woodsman II promotion by this.
    Pottery is discovered, and I choose mathematics towards construction (and war elephants!) next. We could research alphabet instead to enable tech trading, but since we have already connected our ivory, maybe we should prepare for a first war soon!

    1550BC (9): Another jaguar is completed, and heads towards the worker for protection against barbs. Teno starts another worker: Our designated third city will have a lot of jungle to chop.

    1500BC (10): Our wounded scout has to run away from another barbarian.


    Our settler has reached a potential city site, but could also found a city on red dot instead:




    If he founds where he stands, it will be a coastal city, will grab horses and rice, won't waste tiles, and can immediately work the horse, a grass (which could be irrigated!), and a forest before needing to chop.
    If he founds on red dot, it will waste tiles, but it would grab horses, ivory, a cow, and the rice eventually. It could immediately work the cow and three grasslands before needing to chop, but could not irrigate anything.

    Don't know what is better; because I like cities near the capital, I'd favor the spot where he stands on. Opinions?

    -Kylearan
     
  18. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Some general, long-term thoughts...

    This is meant to be a warmonger's game, so we should think about when to start our first war. We can either expand more before starting a war (there's a lot of lands to settle!), or we could fight an early war with jaguars and war elephants.

    If we want to fight an early war, we have to prepare for that NOW. This is a game at quick speed, so the window of opportunity for fighting with jaguars and elephants will be short. I guess we wouldn't want to attack Greece, as they have copper at Athens and thus can build their phalanx unit... We might also want to have catapults, although an early war like this might be possible without (don't have any experience with that yet).

    I'm not sure what's better; in a private game I would expand more and fight with better units later, but then we wouldn't see how an early war feels like so I don't know.

    -Kylearan
     
  19. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

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    Ack! I did it on quick speed? That was not intentional, but might be somewhat interesting. Those drop down menus at the game creation screen seem to have really counter-intuitive behavior, because that wouldn't be the first time I've randomly switched to something I never meant to switch to.

    I'm for founding the city where the settler stands. Do we know where the Incas are located yet? We have a big dark area just to our southeast that they could be hiding in, or they could also be down by where Greece is.

    I'm personally more for war sooner rather than later, but I don't think we can do it with Jags since I screwed up the map, we might as well wait for Jumbos.
     
  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I guess I'm up, so got it.

    Does quick speed affect everything proportionally, in particular tech, growth, and production rates? If it does, then it may not affect strategy, everything will be turns earlier but at the correct time. Or do you mean the travel time doesn't reduce so defenders will be better by the time our offensive units arrive?

    Defenders seem to get a big early bonus, so I have no idea whether the Civ4 equivalent of an archer rush / sword rush is even possible any more. Part of my reason for joining this game is to learn about that though, so take all my words on war with some skepticism. ;)
     

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