RBO - OSG3 - Hard Rock Cafe

There is indeed a 50% penalty for the universal tax rate.... It's not a big deal to me one way or the other at a low rate. Having some reserves is a good thing. Just because it isn't something I usually do doesn't necessarily make it bad, thats why I asked for others to chime in about it. I Think it's not good, but I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

Again, hopefully I didn't come off as really critical of you?? I can't fault AT ALL keeping the first 2 planets at 50% in this case. Charis' formula is correct, but max growth rate wasn't our only issue. We needed to be able to produce colships and research at a reasonable rate. I also can't fault your logic about that pop only giving us half return on that poor planet. My choice would have been to send some to boost pop growth curve there, your choice was to allocate it to where it would do the most immediate good. As I said earlier, thats a great thing about MoO. Real choices with no clear best answer. Either way, it probably doesn't make much diffrence 50 turns from now ;) .

-Maniac

Edit: I cross posted with Alan. In some situations I'd agree with you about the large poor = not bad early. An out of the way size 90 poor, for instance, can make a nice third planet. It can soon grow and take over pop flinging duty from the 2nd colony allowing it to research. Even as a 2nd planet, its got some redeming value, though that definately delays getting research started. Poor planets take a long time to mature, but they do get there eventually. Now ULTRA Poor's on the other hand.... :cry:
 
i like critics! i was in no way offended, my dear marshall. :)
i just pointed out that the things i made, and you might consider wrong or "semi-optimal", have one of this reasons:
-i didnt know better (like 50% on tax, or that with 33% pop you still get 90% growth) but im willing to adept. (although slowly after playing moo for years that "wrong" way :P);
-i think my way is more fun/less micro although it might be not as effective;
-i simply judge(d) a situation different an tried to explain my decision, and its reasons;

@alan
but its only 2%!?
on a 20BC planet that is not half a BC.
if you save 2% of your daily money it wont influence your standard of life in a noticable way...
but every 50 days you can make a small party with the money you saved.
thats the way i see it. :)
 
Therlun said:
@alan
but its only 2%!?
on a 20BC planet that is not half a BC.
if you save 2% of your daily money it wont influence your standard of life in a noticable way...
but every 50 days you can make a small party with the money you saved.
thats the way i see it. :)

Hi Therlun,

I have to agree with Alan. There are truncation effects all through Moo, so that 2% ends up MUCH worse on low production planets.

Here is an example which you can easily test for yourself. I started up a (hard, Silicoid) game and sent the colony ship to the closest plausible-looking star (in this case a red star, two parsecs from Cryslon). It turned out not to be a nice place, but Silicoids don't care. :)



In 2302, production on the new planet Proxima is 1 BC, just enough to put towards one-tenth of a factory.

a-trunc-all-ind.png




I then put three clicks (is that 6% ?) towards planetary reserve. Note that the reserve STILL says +0 BC.

b-reserve-three-clicks.png




Proxima's net production drops by one to zero. No factory building at all until the total population gets to at least four.

c-trunc-zero-prod.png




Cryslon's net production drops by two.

d-trunc-cryslon-down.png




And to cap it all off, the following year you can see that the planetary reserve is still zero, so the 1 BC from Proxima and the 2 BCs from Cryslon have been thrown away.

e-following-year.png




I am a bit surprised the 2 BC from Cryslon didn't produce 1 BC in reserve, but the point still holds that trying to trickle funds into planetary reserve disproportionately hurts low production planets and throws a few BC away on top of the 50% reserve penalty.


There are all sorts of odd facets to Moo, I am still finding them. Don't feel that I am picking on you, I have in the very recent past done exactly what you did. :D

Cheers,
Factoid.

PS - I have just decided I don't know exactly WHAT the planetary slider does. Cryslon's net production drops by steps of 2 BC every so often as the reserve slider is increased. A little further increase of the slider is needed to get a net +1 to the reserves, maybe that "lag" is another truncation effect??

The top of the planetary slider scale is meant to be 20% and there are ABOUT forty clicks, so a single click is something like 0.5%?
 
the max is 10%
tax1.jpg


and it indeed does reduce the production by 20% on that level...
so thats 5%(i set it to a bit more then 2%) of production i wasted for 20 turns.... lol
 
I have a confirmation question. It has been my experience that the production bonuses/penalties for rich/poor planets (and, of course, their ultra counterparts) does not apply to either the research or eco sliders. My "proof" of this is watching poor/rich planets devoting all to research seeming to generate the same RP's as a comparably sized normal planet, and the fact that Sirian's trick of using the research slider to measure eco production for terraforming works the same on any planet, regardless of its mineral class. Can anybody back this up? The implication is that poor planets are most efficiently used for making population (I've used frontline poor planets to stage invasions in conjunction with cloning to some pretty good success. Even half the factories on a decently sized planet can churn clones pretty quick, esp if the planet is Fertile) and research. Conversely, rich planets are better used for reserves, missile bases, and ships.

-dathon
 
as it showed i may not know much, but i know that is correct.
richeness/poornes status only apllies to industry, defense and ship spending.
 
Poor planets live to be scientists and marines since at that level they're functionally the same as any other planet, and you lose less production as an opportunity cost when setting them up in those roles than you would using a non-poor/ultrapoor. As for the reserve question, It's not going to be a big deal if we stop taxing before we setup the next round of developing planets.--But keeping the empire wide tax going when we've got more than 1 developing planet can keep those planets in the helpless stage quite a bit longer than we'd like. The truncating is something not immediately obvious about moo that everyone runs into at one time or the other, so we'll forgive you. Presuming you don't raise taxes again in your second term.

READ MY LIPS
NO NEW TAXES
:lol:
 
Great job of analysis guys.

Thanks a lot for that bit of research Factoid. Basically, I KNEW it wasn't a good thing to be doing, but I wanted somone else to confirm that. I've been accused of being overly critical of others in the past when I deffinately wasn't trying to be, so I thought it was best to let the team answer this one for me. I didn't want Therlun to think I was having a rant session at his expense, especially as he did do a lot of good things and wrote up a really enjoyable report (still laughing at that picture btw) Aparently he didnt so yea.

One other bad thing that I don't think got mentioned. Not only does it truncate, but it works out to a lot more than 2% in the long run, because the factories produced today contribute to the factories produced tomorrow. The research produced today, produces 15% intrest tomorrow. This means the production lost is not linear, but exponential, which is especially bad in the early stages. :eek:

Everyone is spot on about poor planets. As I mentioned back on the previous page, when they DO max out, they ARE great places to research off of. When everywhere else in the empire is fleet building, the poor planets can keep research going. They are sort of like a "half artifacts" planet in that you get double research to manufacturing, and as such, should almost allways be used to research. Depending on size and location, they would make good military bases too, which is a point I'd not have really thought to mention.

Off to work. I'll see you tonite.

-Maniac
 
Whoa, lots to read here. Ok, I'll see what I can do about playing a turn, but 1st I'd better wade through all this. :)
 
OK, turns out we get at least half a day off as the celing half collapsed in the middle of the night...

One thing I wanted to point out, but forgot to earlier, is that maximum taxation isn't 10%, but rather 20% because half the taxes are lost to overhead. Therefore, we've really been taxing 4% of our "gross production"

@ Zed - It's all my fault. Get used to it. I never know when to shut up :lol:

-Maniac
 
2340: I concur with the others, first order of business is to veto the planetary reserve tax. We will be far better off getting our reserve from rich worlds.

Second order of business is to scrap research for the moment. Most of the time I prefer to expand like mad, and let the AI tell me what is too far by poaching a few of them. This is especially true with Silicoids which must expand early or die, since they lose out on key terraforming techs and are sucky researchers in general. Getting range 5 was important, yes, but research is not our strength and too much early research will strangle our empire before we even begin! Oftentimes we can keep several planets we might not otherwise get just by virtue of being there first. I don't really concern myself with the possibility that they might declare war, since usually it's not too hard to enlist aid. Moreover, on a map this size, we can certainly afford to lose a few planets.

I agree that Tauri needs more population to grow into a useful research colony. I send 7M from Rha, which is still shy on factories relative to its current pop, to fill that role. Newly colonized Seidon already has enough current population plus incoming that I don't need to send more. What I need are scouts and colony ships! 100% of Cryslon and Aquilae industrial output are redirected to these activities, excepting a couple clicks in industry on each world. To keep science going at a minimal level, I throw in a couple clicks from Aquilae.

2341: Bad news. The Humans are the first to reach 8 systems. However, we needed range 5 to get outside our current nucleus, so we probably could not have beat them in this regard. This makes early expansion all the more critical, however, as we need to at least have the potential to top 1/3 of the vote as soon as possible. In other news, we construct 12 scouts at Aquilae and dispatch them, in many cases to planets our scouts have recently left behind to explore elsewhere. <b>It is important to keep a scout in orbit above every planet until that planet has a missle base up.</b> A key point for the AI is it is reluctant to attack planets it has not scouted, so preventing the AI from scouting your planets (or planets you intend to make yours) reduces the chances the AI will come after you and increases the chances it will go after someone else. There are no guarantees of course, but you go for whatever will give you the best odds of success.

I also realized I neglected to send the colony ship to Iranha in the nebula last turn (actually I assumed it was a scout, and didn't realize we had a colship just sitting around in orbit of one of our non-col-ship-building planets.) I do so now. I select Iranha primarily because it will extend our reach further.

2342: We explore Thrax (Desert 45) and Maretta (Dead 40) in the east. We should have no problem claiming these unless someone in the SE does an end run on us. Another batch of scouts are built as a hedge against future explorations, and sent to various staging areas so they will be in the right place to push ahead as new colonies are founded. Please keep an eye out as you colonize so that we always have scouts expanding our frontiers. Aquilae switched to colony ships.

2343: We discover Incedius and Cygni in the south. Incedius is a Dead 50 in a nebula, but Cygni is yet another Asteroids. Fortunately Incedius is within range 5 of Phantos and will be our gateway to the size 100 to the south. It is vital to colonize there ASAP!

2344: We chase off a Human scout at Maretta which we just explored. Worse, the Klackons chase off our scout at Iranha with a medium and settle it. We will have to divert our colony ship that is about to arrive at Iranha (we would have lost the race even if I had sent the colony ship on my first turn.) We now have contact. The Klackons only have 3 planets! They must be being pressured by the Sakkra as well. They are Erratic Ecologists and so will likely declare war at some point just because they feel like it, but even more likely because they are being squeezed for living space. This doesn't deter me from wanting to expand as much as possible, however. They can't land on most of the kinds of planets we can and won't be able to for a while due to not having a sufficiently large production base. Still, we will need to make sure Seidon is well-fortified to deal with them. They are likely to build a large fleet. Nevertheless, I negotiate a minimum trading agreement with them to boost relations.

In other news, Cryslon completes a colony ship and sends it to Phantos.

2345: We scout Proteus in the NW, size 45 radiated rich. The Iranha colony ship is redirected to Firma. I am beginning to think we should have sent the ship to Phantos as soon as it was built so as to open up further colonization options, rather than head west with it, but hindsight is always 20/20.

2347: We colonize Phantos. We also explore Collassa, a size 45 in the SW, already occupied by Humans. Our scout moves on so we don't annoy them. Rha is mature enough that I start it building a colony ship, too. I send some pop from Seidon to Phantos; Tauri is poor and can better afford the pop loss, but it is not in a position to donate yet since it had never been given its initial boost to get started. It should be ready fairly soon though.

2348: We colonize Firma. We also build two new colony ships. One goes to Incedius, the other to... oops. All these asteroids have completely cut off our access to the east until we get range 6 or can do an end run from Incedius. Having had an asteroid crop up at Cygni as well as everywhere else really hurt us, as that's what I was going to use as my staging area! I send the other colony ship to Moro in the west instead, though it will take forever to get there. I consider pulling some funds off of shipbuilding and into research but I know we will need at least a couple more colony ships once we colonize Incedius so I hold off for the moment. I am thinking, though, that soon we will need to temporarily turn down the volume on colony ships until we find a way to open the east.

2349: Klackons chase us away from Proteus but they won't stay, it's radiated. We discover Tau Cygni in the SE, an Ocean 75 poor. It's 5 away from an unexplored green star we have a scout on the way to, which is in turn 5 away from Incedius. An end-run might be possible if all works out. Here's hoping we don't have yet another asteroid...

2351: We explore Spica in the SW, a Toxic 30, chasing away Klackons, and in the SE we chase away a Mrrshan scout at Tau Cygni and discover the green star I mentioned is Ocean 40 Rigel, and the Kitties are already there! Grr, that's very bad. It's going to be a bit of a race to see if we can get to our eastern frontier before someone else does.

2352: We discover Primodius in the SW, a Steppe 50 colonized by the Humans. We also complete 2 colony ships, and next year will complete a third. I send one to Cryslon to forward to Ryoun, and the second to Firma to forward to Proteus. Now I have 2 planets freed up for research, but the question is, what? I don't think Industrial 8 will be enough by itself or even with Terraforming +10. We would need Industrial 8, Terraforming 10, and Terraforming 20 to miniaturize enough for large Colony ships with reserve tanks. (We know those are the techs we would get since we are Silicoids and are already researching Industrial 8.) So, if we want range, the best bet is Range 6. I still want Terraforming 10 though as it's the bet bang-for-the-buck tech in the game.

2354: We discover Terraforming +10 and redirect all research to propulsion. We also got a virus in our propulsion research, destroying 550 odd RPs. Good thing that happened early in the research cycle rather than late. I should be able to make that up shortly as I redirect all research to propulsion.

2355: We colonize Incedius. I immediately send a colony ship to Ryoun, as well as some population to Incedius. I also send a second colony ship to Incedius to forward elsewhere later (actually I should have done this earlier.) We gain contact with the Humans (Honorable Diplomat) and Mrrshan (Ruthless Technologist), and I set up trade agreements with each. The Humans are now up to 9 planets, while the Mrrshan only have 3, same as the Klackons.

2357: The Mrrshan send a colony ship to Tau Cygni and chase away our scout. We could have beat them there if not for the asteroids! Now they are likely to get a couple good planets out near what should be our backyard. Fortunately, there is a Dead world they will have to be able to go through to get at the top corner, but that's still annoying.

2358: We discover Berel, yet another asteroid south of Incedius. Yuck.

2359: Mrrshans colonize Pollus, next to Tau Cygni, and are up to 6 planets now. We colonize Moro in the west. I send the colony ship I moved to Firma on to Promima. We also get contact with the Sakkra. They are Erratic Expansionists but still only have a 3PE in the NW.

2360: My turn ends. We should colonize Ryoun shortly. We have a colony ship enroute to Incedius that needs to be forwarded somewhere useful. We should complete Irridium fuel cells soonish and then start colony ship construction again. We will also need to complete 2 techs in Industrial and Ecology to extend our range further from 6 to 9.

Screenshots to come soon, unless someone takes their turn before I get them up. :)

Save file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/rbo-osg3-2360.zip
 
Wow, looks like you did a good job of getting us back on track, and you make a lot of really excellent points. Im still digesting all of it. I'll have more to say when I look over the save (doing so now).

-Maniac
 
Ok, I picked up the save, but won't be playing it until tomorrow. If anybody has anything to say, post it before then. On a side note, I just completed my first Impossible win (see post over at the RB forums), so hopefully I won't muck this up too horribly ;)

-dathon
 
Comments regarding the "First Half"

Second order of business is to scrap research for the moment. Most of the time I prefer to expand like mad, and let the AI tell me what is too far by poaching a few of them. This is especially true with Silicoids which must expand early or die, since they lose out on key terraforming techs and are sucky researchers in general. Getting range 5 was important, yes, but research is not our strength and too much early research will strangle our empire before we even begin! Oftentimes we can keep several planets we might not otherwise get just by virtue of being there first. I don't really concern myself with the possibility that they might declare war, since usually it's not too hard to enlist aid. Moreover, on a map this size, we can certainly afford to lose a few planets.

You are exactly right about expand or die with the Silicoids because of the fact they don't get soil enrichment or atmospheric. I probably would have left ONE planet on research, if possible, but I can't quibble at all with your choice.
I also don't worry too much about people declaring war, and only think about defending key planets in the early game on large maps. Half the time you can scrable up enough fighters to win brush wars in the early going anyway.

What I need are scouts and colony ships!

I couldn't have said it better myself. We missed the boat a bit by not having scouts on the fringes when Range 5 came in, but so it goes.

Bad news. The Humans are the first to reach 8 systems. However, we needed range 5 to get outside our current nucleus, so we probably could not have beat them in this regard. This makes early expansion all the more critical, however, as we need to at least have the potential to top 1/3 of the vote as soon as possible.

That's not just bad news, it's TERRIBLE news. The only way it could be worse would be if it was the Psilons, and even then thats a close call this early. Big humans have a really nasty habit of getting elected early.

It is important to keep a scout in orbit above every planet until that planet has a missle base up. A key point for the AI is it is reluctant to attack planets it has not scouted, so preventing the AI from scouting your planets (or planets you intend to make yours) reduces the chances the AI will come after you and increases the chances it will go after someone else. There are no guarantees of course, but you go for whatever will give you the best odds of success.

Thats a good point, but I think until it has a missile base is a bit long? (You may be right, but I've not waited that long) I've allways waited until it had its starting pop balloon so that it could whip up a scout or fighter itself in 1 turn if needed to turn away an opposing scout/colship. I also don't allways observe that at Toxic's and Radiated in games where the Silicoids aren't present as it will take a long time for the AI to be able to live there, giving you time to work up a defense for the planet. I DO try to rotate a scout over to the planet if I have one available, but I don't lose sleep over it. Remember: The AI CAN'T send troops to any planet it hasn't scouted, although they CAN send troops to planets they HAVE scouted but don't have the range to reach yet.

Cygni is yet another Asteroids. Fortunately Incedius is within range 5 of Phantos and will be our gateway to the size 100 to the south. It is vital to colonize there ASAP!

Holy cow did we draw horrible luck with the Asteroids or what :(

Worse, the Klackons chase off our scout at Iranha with a medium and settle it. We will have to divert our colony ship that is about to arrive at Iranha (we would have lost the race even if I had sent the colony ship on my first turn.) We now have contact. The Klackons only have 3 planets! They must be being pressured by the Sakkra as well. They are Erratic Ecologists and so will likely declare war at some point just because they feel like it, but even more likely because they are being squeezed for living space. This doesn't deter me from wanting to expand as much as possible, however. They can't land on most of the kinds of planets we can and won't be able to for a while due to not having a sufficiently large production base. Still, we will need to make sure Seidon is well-fortified to deal with them. They are likely to build a large fleet. Nevertheless, I negotiate a minimum trading agreement with them to boost relations.

ARGH! We lost the race to that planet afterall? :(. Ordinarilly GOOD that the Klackons are small, but with Humans and Psilons also present, maybe not so good. We'll see. BAD that they are Erratic. I forsee a LOT of spying on Klackons in our future. They are one of the easiest races to steal from and small, so that may make them a good target for that. Good that it didn't deter your expansionisim. I wouldn't worry about anything BUT expanding until somone DOES declare war at this point. Good call on the minimum trade agreement. We should probably just leave that agreement in place at it's current level until they declare on us.

We scout Proteus in the NW, size 45 radiated rich. The Iranha colony ship is redirected to Firma. I am beginning to think we should have sent the ship to Phantos as soon as it was built so as to open up further colonization options, rather than head west with it, but hindsight is always 20/20.

THERE is the future home of the Silicoid National Reserve Bank :) It's odd. I thought Phantos was the way to go, but then when it looked like we might win the race to that Yellow near the nebula because of sending it east, it looked like THAT was the way to go. Hindsight is indeed 20/20
 
Imagine me as the robot--danger will robinson, danger!

The race population atm is Human-Silicoid-Mrshann....That means we need to do one of two things--kiss up to the kitties, and get contact with the psilons, or get the cats to fight the humans. The first vote is coming either on dauthon's turns or mine, and right now the humans are going to take it in a walk--they have contact with the psilons (who presumably are in either 3rd or 4th place pop wise looking at what stars aren't settled) and contact with the mrshann, and being their diplomatic selves, they've done the apropos kissing.

That's priority 2 behind expanding, but not much behind it. The first order of buisiness in that case is to move our scouts off the mrshan worlds to the east-no sense antagonizing them.

If we were the darlocks I'd say it was time to dial up the spying machine against the humans and start framing people--however we should definitely start some research in computers. We suck at research everywhere else--lets focus on the computers and try our hand at espionage. We've got some good targets in this game (Klackons) and some strategic reasons (containing the humans means framing other races for theft against them, to frame we need to succeed in a big way, so we need to make it a priority to be able to do so early.)

Since the sakkra got stalled I don't think our biggest disadvantage is going to come up much--We can't fight a ground war. With the Klackons stalled it's unlikely we'll be fighting a race of glass in the middle game. That leaves diplomacy and tech as the battleground we've been given. We can't out-research the psilons and humans, but we can probably steal them blind if we decide to do it, which will let us keep up. Eventually our extra worlds will max out and we can shift away from the spies.

Just my take on what we should be planning for, Anyone else feeling different about our short-medium-long look-ahead?


Alan
 
The Second Half

I don't think Industrial 8 will be enough by itself or even with Terraforming +10. We would need Industrial 8, Terraforming 10, and Terraforming 20 to miniaturize enough for large Colony ships with reserve tanks. (We know those are the techs we would get since we are Silicoids and are already researching Industrial 8.) So, if we want range, the best bet is Range 6. I still want Terraforming 10 though as it's the bet bang-for-the-buck tech in the game.

You're probably right about the miniaturization needing both Terra 10 and 20. I wasn't sure, so I wen't back to read the discussion in OSG2, and I was indeed all wet on thinking a level 2 construction and level 1 planetology would be enough. Good Call.

Bad luck that we got the virus, but it could have been worse.

We gain contact with the Humans (Honorable Diplomat) and Mrrshan (Ruthless Technologist), and I set up trade agreements with each. The Humans are now up to 9 planets, while the Mrrshan only have 3, same as the Klackons.

I hope the Humans get stuck at 9 planets... or maybe not, depending on where the Psilons are :eek:

The Mrrshan send a colony ship to Tau Cygni and chase away our scout. We could have beat them there if not for the asteroids! Now they are likely to get a couple good planets out near what should be our backyard. Fortunately, there is a Dead world they will have to be able to go through to get at the top corner, but that's still annoying.

Asteroids... [pissed] I've seen worse asteroids (once saw SEVEN no habitables on a SMALL map), but this is still pissing me off. The only silver lining in this is that BOTH those planets they grabed are POOR, so they'll have a hard time defending them. The kitties are playing as TECHNOLOGISTS this game, so they'll be good to steal off of too

We also get contact with the Sakkra. They are Erratic Expansionists but still only have a 3PE in the NW.

Annother Erratic? :(

All in all, a very good set of turns IMHO Zed. Things don't look like a cakewalk do they? But you did you did the best you could with the situation. We've gotten some really rotten luck so far, but I still think we're in position to win if we can keep the humans from getting elected.

OK, I'm sorting through the save file at the moment. I'll post my take on where we go from here when I'm done.

-Maniac
 
Don't take it so hard... please. [puppydogface] Just think of it was a learning experience ;) . As long as you are doing your best and dont make the same mistakes repeatedly, no one here is going to get down on you.

-Maniac
 
OK, the first question appears to be, where are the Psilons. There are 6 remaining possibilities.

Where-are-Psilons.png


What do we know that might help us make a guess? We know from looking at the save that the Psilons are Allied with the Humans. This means they've had contact for at least a few turns.

I'd say that they most likely are NOT at #2. I can't see them letting the humans grab all those planets arround their homeworld. Not the Psilons. I'd guess they are also NOT at #5 (although they COULD have spread out from there all the way up to #3/4... If this is the case, we might be in serious trouble... but I think we'd have voted by now if that was the case... maybe not) and almost ceartianally not at #6. It's unlikely they'd have let the Kitties poach Kronos out from under them.

They Could be at #1, in fact, that might be good. Look at all the white/purple stars arround that star. They might be hemmed in by a bunch of inferno + planets.

The other possibilities are #3 and #4., I think #4 would be the worst case scenareo for us becuase that would cut off settlement of the southwest, maybe completely. Thinking over all the possibilities, I'm going to make a guess. I say the Psilons are either at #1 or #3, and I don't think they are very big. Probably 4 planets max. I COULD be totally wrong, but I don't think so. IF I am right about that, then the whole southeast corner is probably up for grabs. We'll know if they are at #4 in a couple turns as there is a scout approaching there. If that planet is uninhabited, we probably have the keys to the southwest corner if we can make colships fast enough to grab it.

Because of this, if it was me, I'd take Cryslon off science and start it on a Colship for redirect to Incedius. It might delay range 6 by a turn or 2, but looking at the universe, Rance 6 isn't going to get us anywhere but the east flank, and 1-2 turns delay is less likely to hurt us there than it would if the south is up for grabs. That's because we are counting on that Dead plantet to slow down the Kitties. Even if they DO get to dead, their next step would be through a toxic.

Right now, we have to PRAY that blue planet between #4 and the Kitties is uninhabited and isn't a bunch of rocks (think Radiated :nuke: )

We should also not forget to send one of our scouts at Ryoun to scout the green between #3 & #4 and one of the scouts at Moro to scout the white under Sssla, which we can do right now.

Checking the Diplo screen, the Humans know only the Klackons and the Psilons. The Klackons know the Sakkra and the Humans (and maybe Psilons), The Sakkras know only the Klackons, and The Kitties know no one other than maybe the Psilons.

I think we need to do whatever we can to get and keep the Kitties on our side.

We could consider getting the Klackons to declare on the Humans, but that would probably just get the Klackons exterminated. I dono.

Whatever you do, don't sign a nap with the humas yet. I dono if their colships are armed or not yet (they probably are), but it is remotely possible we might have a planet or 2 to argue about.

On the tech front, I DO like the idea of concentrating on computers and stealing other areas, but IMHO it's too early for that. I like to have some plan in place to defend my boarder worlds before I start spying, though I suppose I could be swayed from this position. We *desperately* need an engine soon, by whatever means possible.

I think it's too early to make any other short range plans beyond "spread like a cancer" until we know more about the Psilons.

Whew. I guess I've prattled on enough for tonite. Todd shuts up now.

-Maniac
 
The Psilons are not at #3 or #4, I think, unless they are playing a 1PE (has been known to happen), otherwise I would have seen Psilon scouts around somewhere, and I did not. My guess is #1, but it could be #2. #5 is barely possible.

Incidentally, once we get our core up and running, I don't see any reason why we can't outresearch everyone other than possibly the humans. No-one else has enough of a infrastructure base to keep up, including the Psilons, who I predict will be a quite stunted empire. (It would be different if they had got some breathing room.) We should be able to get an empire rougly double the size of the humans, which will ultimately allow us keep up with and surpass them on research as well.

Cakewalk? Well, not quite, but certainly winnable, and pretty straightforward all things considered. The last census actually had US on top as far as pop goes, so as long as we keep expanding, we should be in good shape to block a vote in short order. We could theoretically lose on the first vote, but that's not all that common even with the humans as opponents. For instance the Sakkra will probably abstain as they don't have contact with the humans. The main thing to do at the moment is continue the focus on expanding everywhere we can possibly get to with all speed. Having the biggest empire solves a lot of problems before they even become problems.
 
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