Regent Succession Game

[MinutiaRules]

1) I'd like to propose the following in terms of the FP. The city Rome is rather shield poor. However nearby there is a spot with 3 cattle, a river and plenty of shields. I'm referring to the spot where an 3/4 MI is healing. This city would grow rapidly and has far more potential than Rome.

2) Just a thought so don't get hung up on this if it sounds radical. My experience with capturing cities that have wonders is that they tend to flip early and more readily. Actually I would even encourage it by stationing 0 or minimal units in Rome until it does. Then recapture and the pop will be less.

3) I know I'm probably in the minority here and that's cool. I'd like to min run to invention. We have 13 archers as is. And it takes like what 3 berserks to take out a satelite city? While our initially few berserks are cleaning up the periphery our AC army, AC, cats and the rest of the ground troops will be usefully employed on the Celts then Aztec mainlands.

 

[Optional]

2) Just a thought so don't get hung up on this if it sounds radical. My experience with capturing cities that have wonders is that they tend to flip early and more readily. Actually I would even encourage it by stationing 0 or minimal units in Rome until it does. Then recapture and the pop will be less.

Good idea, but I believe you're in need of a helper program: Rome doesn't have a flip chance.
I would like to ask EvilConqueror as well: have you had a look at the advice on how to install CivAssist2 on Vista?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think a minimum run wastes what would be the gamebreaking unit. If you wait too long to build them, they are far less useful. Those Archers will sit unused for all those turns, eating up unit support, or they will die in losing battles. One Berserk is worth 4 Archers at least, and the amphibious attack makes them deadly, especially against Spears. Burn to Inention, then do minimum runs, use the money to upgrade.

 

[Daeron]

Overseer has a good point. I see we've already got 13 archers right now. Even if we go for invention in 11 turns, a city like Copenhagen will have produced 4 more archers. Bodo can produce 2 per turn. That's 21 berserkers right there and we have more cities.

I think it's better to keep researching towards invention in 11-15 turns and then slow research towards magnetism until we have upgraded and rushed what we need.

By the way, I see our stalwart regular warrior is still valiantly and unerringly defending the iron deposit. I wouldn't be surprised if he could stand there until the end of this game without ever costing us a single coin.

 

[EvilConqueror]

I just took a look at the save. Nice job, Calis.

Next players main tasks are to get rid of that two remaining towns on the gems island and to prepare & maybe start the assault on the Celtic island. I think we should build more galleys to be ableto trandport more troops faster.

Six units should be enough to take out the two Roman cities as well as the newly settled Celtic city on that island although it will take some time to get units from city to city (especially to the Celtic city).

The Celts look like they're going to be a bit more of a challenge than the Romans. There really aren't any ideal places to make an initial landing, horsemen are always annoying, and we can't safely assemble a stack anywhere. We currently have a maximum of four galleys available to us for transporting units onto the Celtic island.

Spoiler :

I think the tile northeast of Lugdunum is the best place for our landing force. With some planning, I could land 8 units to take the city on the turn after the landing and transport another 8 units to Lugdunum on the same turn that the city is captured. So, we could potentially have a force of 16 units on the Celtic island in just 2 turns.

1) I'd like to propose the following in terms of the FP. The city Rome is rather shield poor. However nearby there is a spot with 3 cattle, a river and plenty of shields. I'm referring to the spot where an 3/4 MI is healing. This city would grow rapidly and has far more potential than Rome.

Here's a map of the area for easy reference:

Spoiler :

Does look like a pretty good spot for a FP city.

I would like to ask EvilConqueror as well: have you had a look at the advice on how to install CivAssist2 on Vista?

I found ThinkTank's post but I still haven't been able to get it to work:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8115571&postcount=909

I think a minimum run wastes what would be the gamebreaking unit. If you wait too long to build them, they are far less useful. Those Archers will sit unused for all those turns, eating up unit support, or they will die in losing battles. One Berserk is worth 4 Archers at least, and the amphibious attack makes them deadly, especially against Spears. Burn to Inention, then do minimum runs, use the money to upgrade.

I agree. We really don't need a ton of berserks. Even just 3 or 4 could do a lot of damage.

3) I know I'm probably in the minority here and that's cool. I'd like to min run to invention. We have 13 archers as is. And it takes like what 3 berserks to take out a satelite city? While our initially few berserks are cleaning up the periphery our AC army, AC, cats and the rest of the ground troops will be usefully employed on the Celts then Aztec mainlands.

I think you mean you're in favor of a max research run toward invention so we get it sooner.

Thoughts on filling the army on the Celtic army when it is safe to do so? I think we might as well. By the time we get to the Aztecs, we'll probably have enough berserks to just do amphibious attacks and it will be useful in protecting our stack.


I'll start my set tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Calis]

A summary of the coming game from my point of view:

1. quick research of Invention, as we probably want a Golden Age at some time.
2. No more reseach after that, as the next useful techs would be Astronomy/Magnetism and at the time we get those the game will be over anyway!
3. During that Golden age we can build everything that we need to win the game.
4. We should focus on galleys as the number of transport ships will limit our expansion. Logistics are the key to ths one.

 

[Optional]

I think a minimum run wastes what would be the gamebreaking unit. If you wait too long to build them, they are far less useful.

I see we've already got 13 archers right now. Even if we go for invention in 11 turns, a city like Copenhagen will have produced 4 more archers. Bodo can produce 2 per turn. That's 21 berserkers right there and we have more cities.

These maths aren't quite correct. What is true is that a max run on Invention will make berserks available in 11 turns, but then we still won't have the resources to build them. A berserk is 20 shields + 150 gold if you upgrade them from archers. The gold is the biggest chunk. If we run max we will still have to wait for the money to make the upgrades. Okay, we could upgrade 1 archer straight away, but that's just 1 berserk, we'll get more earlier if we take research back a bit. I doubt whether anybody made a suggestion to do a minimum run; probably MinutiaRules made a misphrase. I suggested 30%, but that may still be on the slow side. Something like 50% would make sense though, because you'll still get Invention in 15 turns, and you'll have some money to upgrade 3 or 4 archers to berserks immediately.

I doubt whether Bodo will be able to produce the Herioc Epic + 4 archers before Invention comes in.

A bigger bottleneck in fighting with berserks might be our availability of galleys.

Does look like a pretty good spot for a FP city.

I agree. Some less commerce than Rome, but our real priority should be shields, and this spot has more of it.

Six units should be enough to take out the two Roman cities.

If I'm not mistaken, capitals don't autoraze, so try to conquer the capital always, this could save us having to re-settle those islands.

There really aren't any ideal places to make an initial landing, horsemen are always annoying, and we can't safely assemble a stack anywhere. We currently have a maximum of four galleys available to us for transporting units onto the Celtic island.

Yes, we probably have to sit tight a bit at first. First bring at least some pikes and artillery over. No hill or mountain to put them on indeed, but we should still do well with that type of defense. I expect a small rush of Celtic attacks at first, but that'll dry up soon.

Try making a road between Cumae and Antium on the Roman island. That'll make it more defendable.

Aztecs have 59 gold on the bank now. I would snap that up somehow. You might even consider an MA tied in with a peace treaty, like we did with the Celts. The most important bit is to trade for any decent bits of gold, though.

1. quick research of Invention, as we probably want a Golden Age at some time.
2. No more reseach after that, as the next useful techs would be Astronomy/Magnetism and at the time we get those the game will be over anyway!
3. During that Golden age we can build everything that we need to win the game.
4. We should focus on galleys as the number of transport ships will limit our expansion. Logistics are the key to this one.

I gave my take on point 1 already, but the rest I agree with.

 

[MinutiaRules]

I think you mean you're in favor of a max research run toward invention so we get it sooner.

Duh my bad! Yes I meant fastest to invention. Thanks.

 

[Calis]

Regarding the Berserks: In this game they won't be the gamebreaking units, as according to military power, all our opponents are already broken. I just want the Berserks for

1. The Golden Age
2. The fun of using them.

 

[Optional]

Max research will only get the first 1 or 2 berserks earlier, but the 4th and later ones will come earlier if we slow down research to 50% now. And absoluty zero research after that, of course.

Another question: do we still need settlers?
I think we need one more to plop in the centre of the Roman island, but I suggest after that Trondheim builds boats.
If we're building settlers, we also need boats to take them away and units to protect them, but it'll be a wasted investment. Just building boats is better, because they can make sure the islands aren't reached by the AI, and more boats will also make it much easier to shipchain our berserks around from island to island. We will need boats all over the map to not let our units get stuck.

We can empty our own island completely, we don't need to keep any units there. No MP's needed after Great Lighthouse, and no defense needed if we have a few boats that can block access.

Regarding the Berserks: In this game they won't be the gamebreaking units, as according to military power, all our opponents are already broken.

Broken? I'd say the game never even got started for the AI. What about the Romans, who had iron and horses on their island, and hooked up neither of them? What about the Portuguese, the Indians and the Germans? None of them know even their nextdoor neighbour.
It's still a challenge to play the game as effectively as possible, but there's simply no AI in this game.

 

[TheOverseer714]

At this rate, it is more like an AS. Artificially Stupid. Last I heard, it's much easier to be naturally stupid You guys need to be at Emperor or higher to at least give the game a chance to fight back.

 

[EvilConqueror]

I ended up having to start later than I had planned and it turns out I need to stop on my very first turn for some further discussion.

Spoiler :

Pre-flight
-Move the catapults with movement left toward Cumae.

Hit enter.


IBT - Another Celtic galley appears and approaches our coast.
Roman galley enters Cumae.
Archer --> Archer
Galley --> Galley


250 AD - Turn 140

Catapult hits.
Vet MI defeats reg spear.
Vet MI defeats reg spear.
Elite MI defeats weakened vet spear and:


Vet AC defeats elite archer.
Cumae falls to us with no losses.

Are we in agreement on saving the leader to rush the FP in the spot Minutia suggests instead of rushing it in Rome or creating another army? I don't think we anticipated getting another one so soon.

These maths aren't quite correct. What is true is that a max run on Invention will make berserks available in 11 turns, but then we still won't have the resources to build them. A berserk is 20 shields + 150 gold if you upgrade them from archers. The gold is the biggest chunk. If we run max we will still have to wait for the money to make the upgrades. Okay, we could upgrade 1 archer straight away, but that's just 1 berserk, we'll get more earlier if we take research back a bit. I doubt whether anybody made a suggestion to do a minimum run; probably MinutiaRules made a misphrase. I suggested 30%, but that may still be on the slow side. Something like 50% would make sense though, because you'll still get Invention in 15 turns, and you'll have some money to upgrade 3 or 4 archers to berserks immediately.

26gpt x 15 turns at 50% research = 390 gold
2gpt x 11 turns at current research pace + 89gpt x 4 turns at min = 378 gold

The difference between the current run and a 50% run within the same time frame is only 12 gold by my calculations. But the current run will allow us to upgrade two or three archers quicker.

Aztecs have 59 gold on the bank now. I would snap that up somehow. You might even consider an MA tied in with a peace treaty, like we did with the Celts. The most important bit is to trade for any decent bits of gold, though.

The mechanism to set up an alliance with a peace treaty tied in is this:
* declare war
* go to your potential ally into the current deals
* bring the peace treaty on the table and say yes to renegotiate
* add the alliance(s) and bait as needed and make the deal

I haven't been able to figure out how to add a peace treaty. When I contact the Aztecs, the active link is black and I don't see any place to renegotiate. I'm not sure if something is getting cut off by my resolution (another issue with Vista) or I'm looking in the wrong place.

The Aztecs are willingly to give us their 60 gold (they gained 1 gold this turn) and an MA for polytheism.

Another question: do we still need settlers?
I think we need one more to plop in the centre of the Roman island, but I suggest after that Trondheim builds boats.
If we're building settlers, we also need boats to take them away and units to protect them, but it'll be a wasted investment. Just building boats is better, because they can make sure the islands aren't reached by the AI, and more boats will also make it much easier to shipchain our berserks around from island to island. We will need boats all over the map to not let our units get stuck.

Probably not. Like you mentioned, ship blockades would be more effective than trying to settle every available island before the AI and then devoting units to protect them all from landings.

 

[Optional]

Are we in agreement on saving the leader to rush the FP in the spot Minutia suggests instead of rushing it in Rome or creating another army? I don't think we anticipated getting another one so soon.

I would rush a Forbidden Palace in the spot MinutiaRules suggested. We're lucky with our leaders, but being militaristic certainly helped, as the elites, and therefore our chances, come very quickly.

The difference between the current run and a 50% run within the same time frame is only 12 gold by my calculations.

Well, that's minor. I had expected it to be a bit more pronounced, but your maths has been more comprehensive than anybody else's.

I haven't been able to figure out how to add a peace treaty.

This is the clearest way I can show it:

Spoiler :

The Aztecs are willingly to give us their 60 gold (they gained 1 gold this turn) and an MA for polytheism.

The 60 gold is the important bit. If we make an MA we must make sure the Celts are extinguished before we declare on the Aztecs, because of our rep - it's a good habit to try and keep a clean rep in SG's. I even once read that someone had his rep busted because the mutual target got destroyed. It shouldn't work like that, but if you want to be on the safe side, perhaps don't make the MA.

If you've got the beachhead on Celts island, just fill the army we already have with 2 more AC's, an army like that will never get attacket by Celtic horses, provided it's healthy. The army will remain stuck on that island forever, but that's just the way it is.
It's really a bit of a pain for you not being able to run CivAssist, because now you won't know of possible flip chances, or what units are in enemy boats. Vista is something I try to stay away from, as I only hear bad things about it.

 

[Nials]

It's really a bit of a pain for you not being able to run CivAssist, because now you won't know of possible flip chances, or what units are in enemy boats. Vista is something I try to stay away from, as I only hear bad things about it.

Lurker's comment: I run CivAssist2 on Vista x64 just fine. All I needed was an older version of the .NET Framework, since that is what CA2 depends upon. The one I downloaded was this one

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...E3-F589-4842-8157-034D1E7CF3A3&displaylang=en

Otherwise, interesting game

 

[Daeron]

We can't complain about RNG in this game. Looks very good. Maybe a good time to see if we can whip up some settlers from tundra towns to quickly fill the island. Then 001 can produce those galleys we need.

 

[Optional]

Some of our towns, like Hareid and Molde, are already close to finishing a galley. It's not impossible to start using those as settler transport, but we will win the game quicker if we use them for military transport as long as that transport is still lacking. It would be a different story if this was a domination game.
Do we all know how to shipchain, by the way? I don't know if everybody knows, but if an AC finishes in Bergen, it can be used for an attack on the Celtic peninsula the same turn, provided we have a settlement there and the route is provided with galleys. The galleys just need to unload the AC a few times until it's at the destination town. And here is where naming galleys comes in handy, so that you know that it's a galley with movement left where you're putting your unit(s) in.
For shipchaining we will also need a fair amount of galleys, but when we do it properly the game will go much smoother, as our military units will become very mobile.

 

[Daeron]

Some of our towns, like Hareid and Molde, are already close to finishing a galley. It's not impossible to start using those as settler transport, but we will win the game quicker if we use them for military transport as long as that transport is still lacking. It would be a different story if this was a domination game.
Do we all know how to shipchain, by the way? I don't know if everybody knows, but if an AC finishes in Bergen, it can be used for an attack on the Celtic peninsula the same turn, provided we have a settlement there and the route is provided with galleys. The galleys just need to unload the AC a few times until it's at the destination town. And here is where naming galleys comes in handy, so that you know that it's a galley with movement left where you're putting your unit(s) in.
For shipchaining we will also need a fair amount of galleys, but when we do it properly the game will go much smoother, as our military units will become very mobile.

I've heard about it and looked at it before, but never found the need to use it. Am I right in that with us being Seafaring we'd need about 10 galleys for a single chain from Bergen?

 

[Optional]

I've heard about it and looked at it before, but never found the need to use it. Am I right in that with us being Seafaring we'd need about 10 galleys for a single chain from Bergen?

Each galley has move 4, so with 10 galleys we can bring 2 units 40 tiles further on the map. Of course, the galleys would need to be placed 4 tiles apart form each other to do the job.
Great Lighthouse would make 5-move galleys.

If we don't use shipchaining it'll take numerous turns to take our berserks to places like Portugal and India instead of zero turns with a perfect chain, so the advantage is obvious.
This map really asks for shipchaining, more than other maps, but often it can come in handy. I used it in 'New Succession Game' as well, when Persia dropped 4 units on one of our islands. Without shipchaining an extra cavalry in from the mainland we would have lost a town there.
In my previous turn here I used it constantly to bring military and settlers quicker onto the Roman island. That was a shorter distance and easier to manage, though. We will probably not manage to do it perfectly here, but it would still be good to practice, and we will still shave turns off the game even if we only get it half right.

 

[Daeron]

Ahh, oke I was under the impression we'd only move 2 tiles forward with the boats, unload and then two tiles back, then rinse and repeat every turn.

 

[EvilConqueror]

A very busy set.

Spoiler :

250 AD - Turn 140 (continued)

Found 026 Batsbjord on our island.
Trade currency to the Aztecs for their 60 gold.
Move units in preparation for likely Celtic landing.

IBT - Celts land a lone horse next to Cumae.
Another Celtic ship appears near 024. It likely held the settler that created the island city.
Pike completes.
Worker completes.


260 AD - Turn 141

Redline the landed horse with catapults and destroy it with an archer.
Last catapult pings the galley for revenge.
Make a landing next to the size 3 Roman city of Hispalis.


270 AD - Turn 142

Elite MI defeats reg spear in Hispalis.
Vet sword defeats reg spear in Hispalis.
027 Hispalis falls to us with no losses.

Landing made next to the last Roman city of Ravenna.

IBT - Rome lands a warrior next to Cumae.
Settler, archer, MI, Treb, and galley complete.


280 AD - Turn 143

Elite AC defeats the landed warrior.

Vet MI defeats reg spear in Ravenna.
Ravenna autorazes even though it was the new capital.
Romans are destroyed.

Trod is switched from settler duty to galley duty.

Make an 8 unit landing next to the Celtic city of Lugdunum.



IBT - Celtic horse retreats after reducing a pike to 2/4.
Another Celtic horse defeats our other veteran pike.

AC and treb complete.


290 AD - Turn 144

Catapult hits spear in Lugdunum.
Vet MI kills vet spear.
Vet MI loses to weakened spear.
Vet MI kills weakened spear.
Lugdunum falls.

8 more units are transported into Lugdunum for immediate use.

Use them to attack Celtic units that are approaching:

Cat hits horse.
Cat hits horse.
Cat misses horse.
Cat hits horse.

Vet archer beats red lined vet horse.
Elite AC beats another red lined vet horse.

IBT - Celts move and land 5 units next to Lugdunum (2 archers, 2 horses, and a spear).
Archer, harbor, and galley complete.


300 AD - Turn 145

Cat misses.
Cat hits spear.
Cat hits spear.
Cat hits horse.
Cat hits horse.
Cat misses archer.

Vet MI defeats vet archer.
Elite MI red lines one of the horses which retreats.
Elite MI defeats the second horse.
Elite Sword defeats the second archer.
Elite AC defeats the reg spear.

Make a landing by the Celtic city of Gergovia on the gem island.

IBT - Two Celtic archers attack our pike and lose.
A horse comes out of Gergovia and loses to our AC.
A galley completes.


310 AD - Turn 146

Army is assembled in Lugdunum.

Attacks begin on Celtic forces that are approaching:

Cat hits horse.
Cat misses horse.
Cat hits horse.
Elite AC kills horse.

Cat hits spear.
Cat hits spear.
Cat hits archer.

Vet AC beats archer.
Army beats the spear.

IBT - Heroic Epic message.
Galley, worker, and harbor complete.


320 AD - Turn 147

Switch Bobo from palace to Heroic Epic.
Settle 028 FP City.
Use leader to rush the FP.
Settle 029 Honningsvag on our island.

Vet MI defeats reg spear in Gergovia.
Gergovia falls with no losses and is autorazed. We're the only inhabitants on the gem island now.

IBT - Celtic horse retreats but weakens fortified pike.
Sword loses to a Celtic archer.
Pike and MI complete.


330 AD - Turn 148

Attack on Entremont begins.
6 cats hit and 2 miss.
3 Elite MI defeat 3 reg spears.
Army defeats the last reg spear.
Entremont falls with no losses and we capture the MoM.

AC defeats the red lined horse that had retreated during the IBT.
Elite sword defeats the vet archer.

Begin forming a ship chain from our island to the Celtic island. Takes 4 ships to get units to Lugdunum in one turn.

IBT - Vet Celtic galley attacks and defeats our empty reg galley outside of Entremont.
Archer, treb, and temple complete.
India builds the Great Wall.
Odense riots.


340 AD - Turn 149

Move units to deal with Odense.

Attack units approaching Entremont:

Treb hits warrior.
Treb hits warrior.
Vet AC defeats warrior and promotes.

Cat misses a spear.
Cat hits the spear.
Cat hits the spear.
Cat misses a warrior.
Cat hits an archer.
Cat hits the archer again.
Cat hits the warrior.
Cat misses the warrior.

Elite MI defeats the warrior.
Elite AC defeats the spear.
Army defeats the archer.

Use ship chain to transport a MI to the Celtic island in 1 turn.


Current Units:

17 Archers
11 MI
9 AC
5 Warriors
3 Pikes
2 Swords
1 Horse
1 AC Army

8 cats
4 Trebs

20 Workers
12 Galleys
1 curragh

Total Units: 94
Allowed: 152


For next player and team discussion:

We have 375 gold, are making 36gpt, and invention is due next turn.
There are two archers in Cumae (which has a barracks) that are ready for immediate upgrade. There are also several empty galleys near that city that can be used for transport.

2 more archers are fortified in Antium (for possible landings) and can be moved to Cumae to be upgraded. Another archer is in the city below Antium.



The Celtic galley circled in red is the one that attacked our reg galley. I'm not sure if it will attack our veteran galleys but none have been attacked thus far.

Several of the galleys still have moment but there's nothing for them to transport. One of the galleys in the stack next to Lugdumum is carrying a treb to be unloaded next turn. I've left an AC on the Roman island in addition to some archers to deal with any landings.

I've created a ship chain consisting of four ships to get units from our island to the Celtic island. The galleys involved in the chain are renamed galley sc # (ie: galley sc 1, galley sc 2, etc). The chain can be expanded to reach our capital or move further up the Celtic coast.

Our catapults are under the army above Entremont. They don't have any movement left. Two trebs are under the pike and don't have movement either.

I've set up a perimeter around Entremont so that a single horse can't go around us and take back the city. Many of the units still have movement so you may want to reinforce the perimeter or move them to better positions.



Near the gem island, we still have two galleys. One galley is transporting an AC and MI that had been used to destroy the Celtic city.

The other galley is empty and still has movement. I'm not sure what to do with it. It could pick up one of the two MI's on the gem island for transport to the Roman island, just sail to the Celtic island empty, or just stick around to transport more units to the gem island if need be. There's nothing pressing for it to do.

There are a ton of Celtic galleys sailing up and down the northern part of the Roman island. They haven't made any landings but they might attack any ships we try to send that way (especially the empty reg galley).

Several builds may want to be changed.

Save is attached!