Relative Decrease in Caravan Values after Theory of Gravity/SSC

[Giftless]

Hey, this is less of a problem and solution post than more of an inquiry how you might react to a change in the game flow. You see I've been playing around under Communism and enjoying how turn-advantage interacts with the order of technologies researched. One thing I've noticed however is that once I get a Super Science City up and running, the general effectiveness of the caravan bonus goes down.

Take this for an example, say my civilization is pulling in roughly 300 beakers per turn; and the caravan bonus tends to range from 45-120, depending on whether the delivery is domestic or international. In an earlier era these deliveries might dramatically speed up research, but after a certain point there's diminishing returns--like getting 1/3rd of a turn knocked off the research time.

It's almost as if the game is telling the player to switch gears, and I wonder how you might handle this to maintain your in-game advantage. I realize some of you might go with Democracy for the increased trade arrows and ratchet up the ship-chain machinery, though this path strikes me as more micromanagement heavy and cheaterly in a way.

Another option I've been exploring has involved the following:
1) Using this relative tech lull to build libraries and later boom infrastructure for when refrigeration is discovered.
2) Globally expanding to occupy every available city site on the map, lateral rather than vertical growth you might say.
3. Building up a corps of engineers since it seems like you can never have enough of these guys for the work that needs to be done (especially if you're like me and have a thing for maps with tundra and mountains)

One more thing I like about numerous cities is that I can set long term internal trade routes (3 each) and not mess with them again; IMO something about it is just more aesthetically pleasing than dumping a bunch of off-resources into the same foreign city ad infinitum.

Anyhow, I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this lull period; I seem to get it in my games at the time between where my empire is stabilized (with Mike's Chapel and Super Science City established) and the modern era where there's a bunch of good techs on non-related paths (Refrigeration for Farms, Explosives for Engineers, Freight / Capitalization, Railroad).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Anyhow, I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this lull period...

Yes, I have noticed such a lull period. At 20 researched technologies, the tech cost increases dramatically. If you've chosen your techs properly, this should be around the time that you have the technology (though probably not yet the infrastructure) to run a "Power Republic." Future technologies will largely have the effect of making you more efficient.

You have already anticipated my (and most others') response to the situation:

It's almost as if the game is telling the player to switch gears, and I wonder how you might handle this to maintain your in-game advantage. I realize some of you might go with Democracy for the increased trade arrows and ratchet up the ship-chain machinery, though this path strikes me as more micromanagement heavy and cheaterly in a way.

I view the ship chain as representing the development of a significant shipping relationship between two geographic areas, with the single ship representing occasional intermittent trade. If ships had a reasonable movement allowance, I might be less inclined to view ship chains as "legit."

In any case, Civ 2 is a game, and you can play it any way you like. However, the civ 2 strategies that make a civilization grow in the smallest number of turns involve lots of caravans and usually ship chains, which will sooner or later involve micromanagement. We can tell you the most effective to make your civilization bigger and better, but we can't really give you advice on how to have fun.

Take this for an example, say my civilization is pulling in roughly 300 beakers per turn; and the caravan bonus tends to range from 45-120, depending on whether the delivery is domestic or international. In an earlier era these deliveries might dramatically speed up research, but after a certain point there's diminishing returns--like getting 1/3rd of a turn knocked off the research time.

Your delivery values are much too low for any delivery (except if you want a city to have extra trade to celebrate, or want to unblock a commodity demand or something), and you should change something. If 120 gold is the best you can do, send your caravans elsewhere.

That said, as your game progresses, you will need to deliver more caravans to keep pace with science.

One more thing I like about numerous cities is that I can set long term internal trade routes (3 each) and not mess with them again; IMO something about it is just more aesthetically pleasing than dumping a bunch of off-resources into the same foreign city ad infinitum.

I can't comment on how to make a game more aesthetically pleasing to you. I can say, however, that my general Civ 2 gameplay philosophy is to worry about the short term -- in the long term I'll be filthy rich anyway.

Another option I've been exploring has involved the following:
1) Using this relative tech lull to build libraries and later boom infrastructure for when refrigeration is discovered.
2) Globally expanding to occupy every available city site on the map, lateral rather than vertical growth you might say.
3. Building up a corps of engineers since it seems like you can never have enough of these guys for the work that needs to be done (especially if you're like me and have a thing for maps with tundra and mountains)

If you don't want to build lots of caravans, then you seem to have a good strategy. 2 and 3 are good generally (though I wouldn't spend time transforming mountains and tundra).

You might find this succession game interesting.

 

[Giftless]

First of all, I thank you for the Communist succession link Professor; the conditions of not being able to use food caravans and trade at all looks to be quite the challenge. To address some of your other points:

- My number of turns for research isn't terrible (about one per 4-5 turns), with the SSC in fact I've kept the rate of the advancement about the same in favor of more cash to rush buy buildings like harbors and aqueducts. You are right on the money about where I'm at though, if I wanted to I could switch over to the "dark side" (democracy) at this stage and run a pop boom.

I dunno, maybe I'm shy about the prospect of early celebrations, but there were two factors which caused me some hesitation.

1. Sitting on two conquered A.I. civilizations. Usually I like to play a "Babylonian Captivity" style of conquest where badly placed A.I. cities are turned into Settler factories, leading to their eventual erasure from the map.
2. Not having enough developed continental squares and the happiness considerations of Deity, especially since I don't have J.S. Bach's yet. In some ways too I'm more comfortable with the selective boom of food caravans, focusing on cities along the coast or on islands.

- Maybe I'm conceptualizing about the ship chain in the wrong way; i.e. a ship on every square, dur. Since I have Magellan's another way would be to have a ship every five squares or so--that does seem to be more reasonable? I'll have to try it out.

- Mountains and tundra are often last on my terraforming list, unless they're blocking a couple of squares from irrigation or a vital city site.

Anyhow, I'll include a save file for my game here; the geography is really interesting with a continental "lake" to the west of my start location and a great serpentine barrier island to the east.

 

[starlifter]

Prof. Garfield covered most of it.

Since Communism (And Fundy) are much easier to play overall and most discussions are about Democracy, I'll talk some about this game with its .SAV attachment for example. As I explained with Fundamentalism in 2002, you can gain much of the benefit of a PD using Fundy or Communism (or even Monarchy). The real power of Republic/Demo growth across the empire is lost though. Food Caravans can be used to force any city to grow (or even double grow in one turn if used on a celebrating R/D city with excess food).

PD
PF
Info

- Maybe I'm conceptualizing about the ship chain in the wrong way; i.e. a ship on every square, dur. Since I have Magellan's another way would be to have a ship every five squares or so--that does seem to be more reasonable?

Yes, that was wrong. A ship chain is having a link of ships (typically at their range, eg., 5,6,7,8), and send units from ship to ship in one turn. You load them on ship #1 in a port typically, then move the ship to the next ship, wake the units, then select the new ship and continue with the units to the next ship, and repeat. This works well for trade, mainly because you need not build caravans ahead of time with turns enroute, nor be subject to demand changes (send them straight to destinations on same turn), nor worry about having a ship of valuable Copper, Silk, etc. being sunk at sea.

2. Not having enough developed continental squares and the happiness considerations of Deity, especially since I don't have J.S. Bach's yet. In some ways too I'm more comfortable with the selective boom of food caravans, focusing on cities along the coast or on islands.

However, though far and away "PD" ('Power Democracy') is the most overwhelming way to achieve... well, power... in Civ 2, there are many ways to play.

Given your conditions, namely not running a Democracy and setting up something that works, you can try PC instead of PD.

For your specific game and current state of your save, do this:

1. Pick 2 mediocre cities, with extra food. Choose Harpers' Ferry and Locke Raven.
2. These 2 cities will now make 10 net shields per turn, and will create 7(HF) and 5(LR) food vans with IRB (incremental rush buy).
3. Food will go HF-->Washington and LR-->Richmond.
4. Washington will have all forests chopped ASAP, as it goes to size 20.
5. Richmond needs more work, so going to size 16 is easy, then go to 20 as engineer-days allow.
6. Road all 7 direct tiles between Rich and Wash. When RR comes, precharge engineers and RR the same 7. When Auto comes, RB SHs, and you will max your trade routes at 23 each. When Flight comes, RB Apts between trading pairs (not needed for sole Rich-Wash trade, since RR will ensure 20 arrows per route; while airports pairs would give only 16).
7. Make Banks, Stock Exchanges in both Rich/Wash.
8. Push Lux up to 30% for 1 turn, then drop it to 20% and lock it for the rest of the game. Set Taxes to 10% (or 20% if you want).
9. Deliver 3 of any Commodity garbage between Rich and Wash. You can micromanage the Caravan build/demands, or just make 3 and send them anytime if you want. Be sure to have roads to get some dribble of bonus. You only need 3 total, not 3 each from W&R. Make sure at Wash is celebrating and roads are built, at least, for a larger bonus. This will ensure the new routes are kept.

Food is forcing growth via food box full. A food will fill the box when delivered, and force a growth next turn. With 10 shields, every 2nd turn food is produced (10 shields+RB60+IRB25+10shields=85 gold). Or, every turn you can spend (0 shields+RB160+IRB25+IRB25+10shields=210 gold) per food caravan. When you have strong trade routes in the target village (Rich/Wash), there will only be a single -1 food penalty in the food source village.

What you are going to do is celebrate Communism, which can amplify your power rapidly, when using trade caravans. This will add an extra trade arrow in each tile producing trade. It will take 30% Lux to get things started with banks, so have roads, 3 routes, Banks (and maybe SE's) ready. You can do Wash immediately (30 then drop to 20) then when Rich is ready, up to 30 for 1 turn, then back to 20 Lux.

You can make tens of thousands of extra gold and science by using routes to/from these 2 cities instead of other weaker cities. If you do rehoming of caravans/freight, then deliveries to demanded locations, well... you will make simply staggering amounts. If you don't rehome, then for max trade, you will need SHs in all source villages even if you dont get the arrow bonus on each tile because of communism. But eventually, you can in fact get all your commie villages to celebrate at 20% lux.

Your research goals are simple. Avoid RR (the one third trade penalty) until you are forced to take it. Go straight to Automobile, and make SHs. Then never deliver a freight without a SH at its source again. Then avoid Flight (the two thirds trade penalty) until forced.

In your current game, using 10% tax, 20% lux, 70% sci (Wash size 20), you will make about 890 science per turn (474 in wash and 140 in rich), or about a 50% empire boost. Your current game produces only 540 science at 80%, and techs cost 1400. Late game, post-flight SSC (Wash) is about 516b (at 70% sci), and 170b Rich.

Note 1: A monetary benefit of Communism is that you will not need to RB Colosseums (saving as much as 2x(160+200)=720g), nor pay Maint (2x4=8g per turn); your units give the content effect (3x2=6 content).
Note 2: Do not allow villages to grow to size 21 or larger, or you will not celebrate (and thus lose 21 arrows, and associated bonus effects). You can later make Cure for Cancer and grow to 22 while still in celebration.


A 2nd thing reduces your science potential. Most of your landmasses are connected, e.g., are the same Continent despite having 'oceans' between them. This means you do not get the overseas bonus for nearby (22 tile) locations. Connection with a serpentine Road or RR will not even ensure the Road/RR bonuses of +50%/+50%.

You need to find a land (or island) that is not connected, and is on the opposite side of the world from Washington, to make a good trade destination. This will give you good delivery bonuses with both overseas bonus, as well as distance multplier. A ship chain, no matter how many ships, is needed. Consider 9 or 10 ships a "wonder" and make them and send them into chain positions. Make a Navy as necessary to protect them (quite easy to do in Communism, takes much more planning in Democracy even with JSB). You should buy the improvements and join to size 8, then send food vans to size 20.




This is more advanced....

Spoiler :

Your game is ... expensive ... in science.

You are heavily penalized because you are Supreme (the most 'powerful'), and you have no 'Purple' civilization. Never kill the Purple civ if you are Supreme or will be Supreme. Keep at least 1 "pet" city in Purple. Then give the purple everything if you can keep them isolated and 1 small city.

But, since you already killed your Purple, then your tech costs will increase and nothing can really be done about it, unless you become less powerful than Supreme. Strange, I know, but it is Civ II.

By the end of your tech tree on this particular map, your costs will be 11,060 beakers per advance. That is huge. If you had a Purple Civ, the cost could get to 5,880 beakers, or more like 6,720 if you kept Purple 10 techs behind you.

Currently, your 1,400b cost could be as low as about 1,040 if you kept gifting Purple with techs on par with you, and remaining supreme. In other words, normally with a purple civ being alive, you could save about 40% in direct science costs.

With a large empire, properly built and sized cities, PD, and lots of freight, this is all almost irrelevant (not having a Purple civ). You simply make and deliver another demanded freight per turn. In normal Communism, well you will have a long slow game .

 

[Giftless]

Another thoughtful assessment here by Mr. Starlifter; actually I have a question regarding landmass connectivity, would the Serpentine continent to the east of Washington be regarded as the same landmass since both landforms touch the polar regions? And to obtain a Road or RR trade bonus I'd have to build through the German civilization?

Maybe my westward expansion wasn't such a bad idea afterall, haha.

Regarding the purple civilization, your hard numbers are fascinating-- I heard a little bit about this Civ 2 eccentricity but never knew it could amount to a 40% science penalty. The funny thing though is that the Indians (purple) spawned right on top me in the Roanoke, Fairfax, and Norfolk area. They literally had troops three squares from Washington and some more trying to block the road to Huntington. Needless to say, from a strategic standpoint killing them just felt so right XD

What I ended up doing here was a limited boom: switching to Democracy for about nine turns while running my taxes at 60/0/40. This way I was able to rush buy much of the needed infrastructure without going too overkill on the growth. Also some of the cities still needed marketplaces to boom, some didn't have enough trade routes, and others were hindered by the unhappiness caused by ships. It was definitely useful, but I would want to switch things around a bit before invoking another boom cycle.

For your numbers on the power communism trade routes, are you saying that each city would generate 23 trade per route? In a previous game I played (with Airports, Superhighways, and running with the celebrating Communism) 16 was about the highest I would get. Or is the 23 figure based on the railroad connection and the civilization being pre-Flight?

Hmm, I'll give your (big city / short range) junk commodity idea a shot; usually what I like to do though is to build up the island cities and send caravans of coal, oil (or uranium, if I'm lucky) back to the mainland.

Very cool to know that cities won't celebrate at size 21 or larger; I take it that this is before refrigeration (since entertainers can be supported if there's enough food).

 

[starlifter]

I have a question regarding landmass connectivity, would the Serpentine continent to the east of Washington be regarded as the same landmass since both landforms touch the polar regions? And to obtain a Road or RR trade bonus I'd have to build through the German civilization?

Overseas bonus applies if:
1) Landmass of Source and Destination are different (look at integer after terrain coordinate, when you right-click any tile... even 'black' undiscovered tiles).
2) Distance is 22+ tiles. Diagonals count as 1.5 tiles. Distance is computed along the optimum path.

This means you do not get the Road or RR bonuses EVEN IF you are on the same landmass and connected 'correctly' with a distance of 23 (for example). Use Airports, post-flight, to recover 50% though.

Most of the landmass in your game, including the 'across the water' to your east, is Landmass #02. Liberty Bell is #09, Long Island #06, Easter Bunny #14, etc.

Regarding the purple civilization, your hard numbers are fascinating-- I heard a little bit about this Civ 2 eccentricity but never knew it could amount to a 40% science penalty.

The principle is the "Key Civ". Each Civ has a Power, recomputed every 4 turns (in Oedo years). You and most Humans are likely "Supreme" for most of the game. This means your strength is compared against the Purple Civ. If you are ahead, you get penalized and the AI gets more help. If behind, you can actually get 'help'. But normally you are ahead in Science if you are Supreme, so your science cost is increased. The further ahead you are, the greater the cost of your science for a given advance. So, if you reduce your lead (you Gift techs to the Purple), then your science costs is immediately reduced (costs are immediate; power is computed in Oedo years).

For your numbers on the power communism trade routes, are you saying that each city would generate 23 trade per route?

On your exact map, in this situation, yes. The conditions for 6 routes of 23 are: all 7 tiles with RR, Colossus, 2 superhighways, Freight, Pre-flight, and both cities with all 21 tiles producing trade and celebrating (if in Fund/Comm). When you lose Colossus (at Flight), the routes will be worth 20 each due to loss of the bonus Colossus arrows..

In a previous game I played (with Airports, Superhighways, and running with the celebrating Communism) 16 was about the highest I would get. Or is the 23 figure based on the railroad connection and the civilization being pre-Flight?

You need route properly RR'd, and each tile producing trade. The link in my Sig will take you to pages where I've explained the actual math for any given bonus or route.

Hmm, I'll give your (big city / short range) junk commodity idea a shot; usually what I like to do though is to build up the island cities and send caravans of coal, oil (or uranium, if I'm lucky) back to the mainland.

They are not mutually exclusive. You wanted a setup with good output; the junk trade between the 2 cities are to ensure each has its 3 high-value trade routes (e.g, 16, 20, 23), so future routes to/from other villages will not replace them.

Wash should be the destination for most trade in your empire, esp. before Flight, because of Colossus. After flight (Radio), just make sure source/destinations both have airports, SHs, and are large (meaning have 60+ base trade). Initially, Rich and Wash will fit this bill, and as other trade cities reach size 20+, those will be OK also.

Very cool to know that cities won't celebrate at size 21 or larger; I take it that this is before refrigeration (since entertainers can be supported if there's enough food).

Well, not exactly. What will happen in Communism is if you are size 20, and fill the Food Box, then on the next turn you will be size 21 and not celebrating (unless you have CfC). If you are ANY even size above 20, and grow to the next size, you will not be celebrating at the Odd size. This is because of how the Happiness Cap works (specifically, Luxuries). Once you hit size 43, you cannot celebrate at all in any Gov't (because of citizens 2x21). However, once you hit size 36, any future growth only adds one point to your score, and not anything else (eg, no tax, sci, or lux).

So, if you want to take Comm/Fund to say size 27 (e.g., you have the food for it), then what you do is have 6 food ready at size 20 (assuming no CfC and being in Comm/Fund), and grow 1 per turn with food to 26. If you want to keep celebrating, you must go to 30% Lux. Or, keep 20% and then increase to 30% at size 26 for 1 turn, and drop back to 20%. You cannot stop at an Odd number size like 27 and still celebrate in Comm/Fund.



So in short, you get Wash/Rich to size 20/20 with 3 Road/RR routes (total 6), and get SHs as soon as possible. Then use those Trade powerhouses to pump up the trade values in the rest of your empire. Its highly unlikely in your game you will find AIs as suitable partners, esp. since they are on the same Continent as you and much smaller. Before Flight, everyone trades with Washington. After flight, new trade is only done between cities with SH/Apt (for the few that are within 22 road range, proper RR).

 

[Giftless]

Well, not exactly. What will happen in Communism is if you are size 20, and fill the Food Box, then on the next turn you will be size 21 and not celebrating (unless you have CfC). If you are ANY even size above 20, and grow to the next size, you will not be celebrating at the Odd size. This is because of how the Happiness Cap works (specifically, Luxuries). Once you hit size 43, you cannot celebrate at all in any Gov't (because of citizens 2x21). However, once you hit size 36, any future growth only adds one point to your score, and not anything else (eg, no tax, sci, or lux).

So, if you want to take Comm/Fund to say size 27 (e.g., you have the food for it), then what you do is have 6 food ready at size 20 (assuming no CfC and being in Comm/Fund), and grow 1 per turn with food to 26. If you want to keep celebrating, you must go to 30% Lux. Or, keep 20% and then increase to 30% at size 26 for 1 turn, and drop back to 20%. You cannot stop at an Odd number size like 27 and still celebrate in Comm/Fund.

Okay, I see; so with the size 21 figure you're assuming that the luxury rate is running at 20%? Indeed, I noticed in my last game that the output of my specialists would vary with every other pop growth (the game accounting for a fraction), but what I ended up doing was having my Luxuries at 30% with lots of taxmen in size 26-28 cities. Taxmen can generate 7-8 gold per while entertainers can only make 5 luxuries each, so I figured it would be more efficient to use the slider for luxuries.

 

[simpeter]

I frequently choose to play as the purple civ based on the idea that I can avoid the key civ penalty.
Is this erroneous thinking? Would I be better served by choosing a different color and tech gifting the purple?

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Prof. Garfield covered most of it.
Your research goals are simple. Avoid RR (the one third trade penalty) until you are forced to take it. Go straight to Automobile, and make SHs. Then never deliver a freight without a SH at its source again. Then avoid Flight (the two thirds trade penalty) until forced.

Sorry, but what are the one third and two third penalties?
And what is "SH"?

 

[Blasph23]

SH = Superhighways.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

SH = Superhighways.

That makes sense. I checked in the list and it's not there.

I hope someone will explain what penalties they talked about, and what RR and Flight has got to do with it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Discovery of certain technologies reduces the one time bonus of a delivery (the value of the route is not affected). Navigation, Invention, Railroad, and Flight all do so. Look up the details of trading and you will see what the actual effects are.

 

[Giftless]

It depends on how you play too; I'd assume that the delivery penalties are there for railroad and flight because at that point, cities tend to be much larger and caravan (or freight) units can be delivered much faster. A lot of these guys use the delivery bonus to "power game" the earlier eras, though I've noticed with the late game communism it's usually the arrow bonus of quality routes which matters more (to push cities over into celebration mode).

Another factor is that in modern times, goods like oil and uranium start coming into demand. These have +150% and +200% modifiers, so with these in play you might not notice the other penalties--that is, unless you're going for an exponential growth perfect game.

It's all a good thought exercise I think though, to consider the order and flow of technologies; and how they might impact the overall expansion of an empire. I've wondered if getting explosives and enough engineers in play is even more important then cash flow, since population is ultimately constrained by the amount of transformed tiles.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I'm playing a game right now and Communism is excellent. It's like Monarchy without corruption. It's easy to keep cities in celebration mode so I get as much trade arrows as with Republic.

I have some cities that produces oil, but nobody wants it. I'm now in the 1860s and many modern techs have been developed. But not Automobile, I want to delay it because it renders some wonders obsolete.

I also find that delivering a commodity to a city that demands it is usually a waste. I almost never get any significant delivery bonus anyway, even if it's a reasonably big city on a far away continent. So I choose to deliver to big cities that have lots of trade, and I try to deliver to as few foreign cities as possible, this way I can help my own trade without helping my opponents.

Discovery of certain technologies reduces the one time bonus of a delivery (the value of the route is not affected). Navigation, Invention, Railroad, and Flight all do so. Look up the details of trading and you will see what the actual effects are.

Thanks, that info will come handy.
Which trade topic do you have in mind? Here are probably hundreds of them and no one is pinned.

 

[mackerel]

Communism is a fine choice, comrade. A few turns of Rep/Demo may still be a good idea; if you can maintain celebrations, it doesn't take long to transform a sprawling empire of little villages into massive trade powerhouses. Delivering from a size 20 to a size 20 will get you more significant delivery bonuses.

Oil will start to be demanded after you discover Automobile. I generally keep oil vans in a storage area until they're needed, hate to waste them on random deliveries.