Religion: a nuisance?

[Franks]

Ok, I've played 4 games on Noble since I got Civ4. In my 3 first games, I used to go for at least three religion (Hinduism, Judaism and Christianism) right at the start and then choose for example Christianism as my state religion. In all these three games I had big diplomacy problems all game long because of the negative effects of having a different religion, so the AI didn't want to trade anything, some were declaring war on me, etc. The last game I played I rushed for "terrain technologies" (agriculture, mining, pottery, etc) instead of religion ones and I was still able to get a holy city for Judaism and Chistianism. I never adopted any state religion, and that helped me too much during all the game, most of the AI were pleased with me and willing to trade almost anything. I was able later on to pass the Free Religion resolution and the AI was even more pleased with me.

What I'm asking is, is it worth having a state religion for all the negative effects that it brings? I tried to convert the AI overseas but they didn't want to sign Open Borders because they were pissed with my religion. What do you guys think?

 

[walkerjks]

Why adopt Christianity? Research it, sure. But start developing Hinduism, spreading it to other cultures via missionaries. Once your neighbors adopt your religion, your diplomacy becomes so much simpler.

By waiting to adopt Christianity, most of the other civs will have already adopted different religions. It's much easier to convert them early, so Hinduism is your best bet.

 

[Franks]

Ok. But what about civilizations on the other continent? They will dislike me and won't sign Open Borders because their religion isn't the same as mine, so I won't be able to send missionaries to convert them.

 

[dh_epic]

That's what's so great about Civ 4. You have dozens of people who pursue religion and succeed, and then you do the exact opposite and succeed.

I've done both. Won with religion, and won without it.

I actually find myself doing what you're doing, lately. Avoiding religion altogether. The diplomacy hit is too much, and by not competing for an early religion you can do a lot of other cool things (like be the first to horsearchers )

When you do go for religion, though, you have to make missionaries a priority. If you wait for the religion to spread randomly, different AIs will adopt different religions. This makes diplomacy very hard. So once you do discover a religion (or more), you have to be prepared to put wonders and buildings on hold while you pump out enough missionaries to influence AT LEAST your closest neighbors. Remember: each missionary is worth one gold -- two with a shrine. Building 10 missionaries can be worth more than building the colossus. Not just gold wise, but in terms of keeping valuable allies for the entire game!

 

[DisruptiveIdiot]

Ok. But what about civilizations on the other continent? They will dislike me and won't sign Open Borders because their religion isn't the same as mine, so I won't be able to send missionaries to convert them.

That's why I hold off on making a state religion until after I secure its spread. Theology is an important piece of technology to get as it allows the Theocracy civ option, something you want to avoid other civs getting. If you can get it first, you at least know you have a small window of time to get your religion spread. Usually I'll go for Judaism or Christianity because Hinduism and Buddhism come too early for my tastes (I don't want to divert resources away from expansion, science, and military at that point in the game) and Confucianism, Taoism, and Islam usually come after theology which means there will be theocratic states you can't convert.

 

[Speciou5]

Playing without religion is definitely possible and is good for relations with civs of different faiths, however there are downsides. You lack the ability to be able to control where and when you can build temples, don't get some bonuses of the upper tier religious buildings (plus some wonders), and lose out on some civic bonuses. The biggest loss, of course, is the lack of shrine income and a slower cultural spread. Also, because you are set at 0 on religious mods (until someone asks you to convert) you don't get any potential pluses. You can have much closer relations with the AI if you share the same religion, which you miss out on.

Basically you are shutting a door. But if you accept the losses you should be able to do more in other fields.

 

[Ruffin]

Anyone have any success at conversion by the sword? Say the neighbor has a city or two that picked up your religion from trade. Beat them at war and force them to convert as part of the peace treaty. Haven't tried it, just wondering if anyone had. It'd be a good way to settle relations with someone you don't want to fight again.

 

[suspendinlight]

I forced Caesar to convert to Judaism once as part of a peace treaty but he converted back to Islam (which he founded) a few turns later...

 

[Franks]

Great, thank you everyone. I guess religion isn't my priority, 'defense' is

 

[jar2574]

I think that state religion can be justified by the civic Organized Religion. The 25% production bonus rocks.

I do think that spreading missionaries to create at least one or two allies is important though.

 

[Seanirl]

Seems a pity though that Buddhism and Hinduism, as the first religions by far, appear to be the only real options for a successful religion.

 

[jar2574]

Seems a pity though that Buddhism and Hinduism, as the first religions by far, appear to be the only real options for a successful religion.

Judaism can be spread successfully. I've also spread Confucianism. Just have to aggressively build missionairies. With the Organized Religion Trait you can build them anywhere.

 

[ejdacanay]

Why adopt Christianity? Research it, sure. But start developing Hinduism, spreading it to other cultures via missionaries. Once your neighbors adopt your religion, your diplomacy becomes so much simpler.

By waiting to adopt Christianity, most of the other civs will have already adopted different religions. It's much easier to convert them early, so Hinduism is your best bet.

meh, this is a Historic Game, and every1 being buddhist in-game pisses me off, it is HARD, maybe impossible to spread christianity (when christianity is the biggest religion today)

EDIT: i think the devs need to patch up this problem soon, cuz religions is a GREAT addition, but there are a lot of issues and problems with it

 

[Mallow005]

As the dev's stated, they are not theologins. They wanted all the religions equal in effects, making it biased towards christianity would upset a lot of people. Buddhism and Hinduism don't dominate, it's easy to spread other religions. Most of the time confusianism or taoism is the most popular for me. Besides, if you're talking historically correct, christianity before 0AD?

 

[Arkanin]

That's what's so great about Civ 4. You have dozens of people who pursue religion and succeed, and then you do the exact opposite and succeed.

I've done both. Won with religion, and won without it.

I actually find myself doing what you're doing, lately. Avoiding religion altogether. The diplomacy hit is too much, and by not competing for an early religion you can do a lot of other cool things (like be the first to horsearchers )

I agree - this is what makes Civ4 awesome.

You generally are more likely to want a religion if:
-You are playing with human players who won't declare war because of religion
-You have few luxuries and expect managing happiness to be a problem
-You are busy primarily with the construction of infrastructure (organized religion)
-You are willing to make the effort to spread your religion
-Your neighbors are less likely to have a state religion soon or few of them have one.

You generally are less likely to want a religion if:
-You are playing on an especially crowded map
-You know a great deal of people who have another religion
-You are warmongering, or have plenty of luxuries, so the existence of religion benefits you less.

One fun strategy to share is this: Found two religions, adopt neither, and spread them to different countries. Watch the holy wars begin.

 

[ejdacanay]

As the dev's stated, they are not theologins. They wanted all the religions equal in effects, making it biased towards christianity would upset a lot of people. Buddhism and Hinduism don't dominate, it's easy to spread other religions. Most of the time confusianism or taoism is the most popular for me. Besides, if you're talking historically correct, christianity before 0AD?

lolz did i say the timeline? and what are u talkin bout being buased towards christianity? its biased towards the earlier religions? im now in the late 1900's (my 2nd HUGE game) and most of the world is buddhist, honestly this doesn't seem historic? or is this just me

 

[mrlaze]

So are you going to be upset if you play America and don't become dominate in the 20th century

 

[dh_epic]

At the lower difficulties, you're usually the first person to grab Buddhism, and so that's usually the first religion to spread.

At higher difficulties, this isn't always the case. I've seen both Confucianism and Christianity become the most popular religion (let alone the first three).

Islam and Taoism still get a bad rap, though. Still, I've seen these become popular national religions, with very little international presence.

If you build missionaries, you can make anything the most popular religion. If you don't build missionaries, usually the first three make the biggest impression. But this isn't always the case.

 

[Rillion]

I've enjoyed playing with religion. If I'm a spirtual civ I usually end up getting Hinduism first, if I'm not a spiritual civ, I can usually get judaism (been playing on noble). I usually make sure to crank out a few missonaries to hit up all my neighbors that are willing to sign open border agreements. Even had a great time when I converted Victoria to judaism, then saw her change a few turns later to Buddism. So I sent missonaries to every city I could find and she changed back a few turns later. I could just image her people grumbling about her not being able to make up her mind! In that same game I later founded Islam then spread it to my own capital where I have been having problems keeping the population happy (time for another temple).

 

[KAuss]

Religion freaking rocks... I don't found my own because it takes away from the important things... However, if you look closely at which religion is majority, just stick to that one...

Eventually, someone is going to be stupid and found a new religion and stray from the pact... THAT is going to be the hated civ and you can use your religious tides to start a holy war on that sucker...

Make sure you have your friends go in for the kill first by making them agree to attack... Even if they don't kill anything, this will ruin their relationship enough so their prior ties won't make them attack you by a plea from your target!!!

With this strategy pulled off correctly, you'll aquire a LOT of land and become dominate enough to spread a new "Christianity" in your own territory... Once you've gained enough places, THEN swith a close "small" neighbor, and do the same to your biggest threats!!!

Just keep a close eye on the % numbers in the religion advisor... Make sure you only pull this late game tatic with the biggest religion, or else the other civs will most likely just pull back and stick to the old religion!!!

Holy wars freaking rock... Best excuse to invade ever... Not to mention a good way to keep friends too!!! Something that was near impossible in Civ III...