Religions, how many?

[Bastian-Bux]

At the moment I'm talking with some people to change my Aventurien mod over to a more historic, less anthrocentric time of that world. BUT: At this time there have been more different pantheons around.

How many religions are "realy" possible? How many are graphicaly representable, without having trouble with the place in the city screen and the religion screen? Anyone experience with this?

 

[zulu9812]

I'd like to see more religions in-game. Ultimately, I would like to change the way religions spread as well. I think that once one civ invents a religion, another civ shouldn't be able to go to that religion just by researching the relevent tech. Once a religion has been discovered, it should only be spread - not discovered again. Obviously, that could result in very few civs actually having religions, so I would like there to be more of them.

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Thx Zulu, but my question is: how many religions are possible? Any modder having experience?

At the time where m mod starts there are roughly 20 religions in existenz. Some of them are realy unimportant, several can be added together, but I probably won't be able to cope with 7 only. We'll be able to get down to 8 as absolute minimum, better 11 or even 13. So anyone experience with that many religions?

 

[The Great Apple]

Ultimately, I would like to change the way religions spread as well. I think that once one civ invents a religion, another civ shouldn't be able to go to that religion just by researching the relevent tech. Once a religion has been discovered, it should only be spread - not discovered again. Obviously, that could result in very few civs actually having religions, so I would like there to be more of them.

Unless I'm very much mistaken this is exactly how it works at the moment. Only one Civ can found each religion.

I think more religions may not be good - it would get rid of the fun diplomacy blocks you get.

 

[jbfballrb]

If you really need to add in more, you're going to have to mess with screen values in Python.

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Great Apple, you'd probably just produce more (or more heterogenous) blocks.

My problem is, that severall of the religions that are existent at -1500 BF of that mod will "merge". BUT: for the starting couple of centuries they do have to be separate, and even at the end they will be recognizable as important streams of the "mainstream" religion.

So theoretically its possible to have as many religions as you want to? Only problem is fitting them into the religion screen AND coping with the effect of diplomatic differences?

Is it possible to set a parameter in a way that religion A and B are friendly to each other, but not towards C? Like giving different religions different diplomatic mali for each other? And maybe even change this mali mid game, for example when the main god of religion A decides its time to have a stand-in with the main goddess of religion B, producing a pletoria of minor gods?

 

[Kael]

Great Apple, you'd probably just produce more (or more heterogenous) blocks.

My problem is, that severall of the religions that are existent at -1500 BF of that mod will "merge". BUT: for the starting couple of centuries they do have to be separate, and even at the end they will be recognizable as important streams of the "mainstream" religion.

So theoretically its possible to have as many religions as you want to? Only problem is fitting them into the religion screen AND coping with the effect of diplomatic differences?

Yes, I dont know of any hard coded religion limit.

Is it possible to set a parameter in a way that religion A and B are friendly to each other, but not towards C? Like giving different religions different diplomatic mali for each other? And maybe even change this mali mid game, for example when the main god of religion A decides its time to have a stand-in with the main goddess of religion B, producing a pletoria of minor gods?

Yes, but it will have to be done with the SDK (well, something kludgy could be done in python but it wouldnt be pretty).

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Yikes, I didn't plan to dig into the Civ 4 entrails THAT deeply .

So another approach: is it possible via python to set/reduce the diplomacy malus for all religions? And add it back in some other way individualy? Maybe like the good/evil system of Fallen? So basically "cheating" around this problem (maybe thats what you are suggesting with your "not pretty" python approach)?

 

[Kael]

Yikes, I didn't plan to dig into the Civ 4 entrails THAT deeply .

So another approach: is it possible via python to set/reduce the diplomacy malus for all religions? And add it back in some other way individualy? Maybe like the good/evil system of Fallen? So basically "cheating" around this problem (maybe thats what you are suggesting with your "not pretty" python approach)?

One of the scenerios that comes with the game has a crude attitude adjustment that is all done in python. It isnt integrated with the games attitude system but does track a few things. Thats the "cheating" method (and what i was refering to as the not pretty option).

To do it well your going to need the sdk, i wrote a guide in the guides forum about how to code an attitude change. It should be easy enough to use it to do what you want.

 

[zulu9812]

Unless I'm very much mistaken this is exactly how it works at the moment. Only one Civ can found each religion.

That's correct, but non-founding civs can convert to that religion voluntarily once they discover the tech for it. I want to take that out. Religions shouldn't just spring up out of nowhere.

I think more religions may not be good - it would get rid of the fun diplomacy blocks you get.

In what sense?

 

[Kael]

That's correct, but non-founding civs can convert to that religion voluntarily once they discover the tech for it. I want to take that out. Religions shouldn't just spring up out of nowhere.

In what sense?

Im not TGA but I suspect he means that one of the functions of religion is to allow unofficial "teams" to develop between the players (since you get attitude bonuss's for having the same religion and a penalty for having a different one). The more reigions you have the less the relationships matter (as everyone tends to hate you).

 

[Jeckel]

That's correct, but non-founding civs can convert to that religion voluntarily once they discover the tech for it. I want to take that out. Religions shouldn't just spring up out of nowhere.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Are you meaning that a Civ can make their state religion Christianity as soon as they discover Theology, or do you mean somthing different? Because this is not the case, you can not convert to a religion unless atleast one of your cities has the religion.

 

[zulu9812]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Are you meaning that a Civ can make their state religion Christianity as soon as they discover Theology, or do you mean somthing different? Because this is not the case, you can not convert to a religion unless atleast one of your cities has the religion.

No, what you're saying is what I mean. Converting to a state religion that so few of your people believe in seems strange. I'd rather a more natural spread for religion.

 

[LeperColony]

Personally, I'd like to see not only more religions, but I'd like to see religion play a greater role in Civ. It would be very interesting if a religion could fracture into different sects or possibly evolve into an entirely new faith.

I think the political-religious interplay is currently too shallow as well. It would be neat if you could set state policies towards each religion, on a spectrum ranging from official adoption to outright persecution. Persecuting unpopular religions might improve the moral of your populace at the risk of upsetting other states.

I also feel that just as states have relationship trackers towards each other, so should religions. Long wars between states of two different religions should change the level of distrust between all states of the two religions, and so forth.

 

[Bastian-Bux]

OK, we might have come up with another idea how to solve this.

Several of the religions in that world are "closely" related. Close enough to be subsumed under one general category. But different enough to demand more then a simple summing up.

What we have come up now is the following: very similar religions will be summed up under one "head religion" but will be further differized through civilisation specific civics.

Now the following problem shows up: how many civics can be used in one group (religion in this case)? Is it possible (easily moddable) that only a certain subgroup of that civics is shown/chooseable according to the religion of the civilisation?

So for example while the Tulamidic civ and the Garethien civ might basicaly worship the same 12 gods, the Tulamidian civ prefers 2 of them (Phex/Feqz, god of merchants and thieves and Rahja, goddes of Lust), while the Garethien civ places much more importance on several other gods (Praios, god of justice and law and Travia, goddes of marriage and home frex.). So the tulamidic civ could choose a civic "Feqz/Rahja" which isn't accessible to the Garethien civ (best not even visible), to allow a more finetuning of the broad religions. This different civics might then even give a slight malus to diplomaxy, though much smaller as if the two civilisations would be of different faith.

I think I remember something like this from the Fallen 2 mod, but ain't sure. Kael? Is this possible?