Religious Overhaul [Concept]

[GeneralZIft]

As per usual with my ideas, I try not to totally rework a system from scratch, so I am looking to only make interesting / vital changes to a gameplay system.
The aim of this concept is turn Religion into a Battlefield that is multi-Civilisation rather than a single player effort.

Religious Host and Religious Members
The Civilisation who founds the religion becomes the religious host, and all other Civilisations who have this majority religion become religious members.
Members will gain bonuses akin to Hosts, even if they are not the Host, they gain a weakened version of the same bonuses.
This is instead of some bonuses being Founder-only.

So for example, Tithe provides 1 gold for 4 religious citizens worldwide, for the Host. But for each Member: Tithe provides 1 gold for 6 religious citizens worldwide.

In other words, the bonuses that usually encourage the Founder to spread the religion are now also available for the Members, such that they're pushed to also spread the Religion.

Removal of Religious Victory
For this idea to work, the religious victory needs to cease to exist.
This way, Members would not be directly funding the Founder's Victory.

Members become Hosts
If the Host Civilisation is wiped out, there are two options for implementation.
Option one: the member with the largest population with this Religion becomes the new Host
Option two: the oldest member with this Religion becomes the new Host.

This adds a secret tension that pushes Members to potentially destroy the Host and steal the Religion for themselves, and gain all the relevant bonuses they would've had, had they founded it themselves.

---

Now, what would happen is that Religions essentially become early game (forced) Alliances.
Essentially, it's possible for Civilisations who do not happen to found a religion to be able to 'play the Religious game' by gaining actually relevant bonuses from Religions, and also being able to steal it.


Possible Extensions:

• Ability for Religious Members to create a Schism with this system
• Options for Religious Members to Host a mini-UN-style meeting where you can enact some type of Religious policy
• Options for Religious Members to condemn other players.
  • Notification: Religion of <Religion> has agreed to condemn <Your Country> // This leads to reduced tourism from that particular religious citizen for example

What do you guys think?

 

[Naokaukodem]

Seems a draft of something that could work... but I don't think they will scrap the religious VC.

Personnally I would like to be able to found infinite number of religions, because I feel it adds up to the gamaplay, and it sucks not having one.

 

[GeneralZIft]

Seems a draft of something that could work... but I don't think they will scrap the religious VC.

Personnally I would like to be able to found infinite number of religions, because I feel it adds up to the gamaplay, and it sucks not having one.

The problem with the concept is that the Religious VC and Multiple Religions would void it - I'm trying to give players incentive to spread religions that are not theirs

 

[Blue whale]

owning the holy city should make you the religion host even when another civ is one unless the original host still exist or if the holy city is occupied

 

[GMVORTEX1044]

As per usual with my ideas, I try not to totally rework a system from scratch, so I am looking to only make interesting / vital changes to a gameplay system.
The aim of this concept is turn Religion into a Battlefield that is multi-Civilisation rather than a single player effort.

Religious Host and Religious Members
The Civilisation who founds the religion becomes the religious host, and all other Civilisations who have this majority religion become religious members.
Members will gain bonuses akin to Hosts, even if they are not the Host, they gain a weakened version of the same bonuses.
This is instead of some bonuses being Founder-only.

So for example, Tithe provides 1 gold for 4 religious citizens worldwide, for the Host. But for each Member: Tithe provides 1 gold for 6 religious citizens worldwide.

In other words, the bonuses that usually encourage the Founder to spread the religion are now also available for the Members, such that they're pushed to also spread the Religion.

Removal of Religious Victory
For this idea to work, the religious victory needs to cease to exist.
This way, Members would not be directly funding the Founder's Victory.

Members become Hosts
If the Host Civilisation is wiped out, there are two options for implementation.
Option one: the member with the largest population with this Religion becomes the new Host
Option two: the oldest member with this Religion becomes the new Host.

This adds a secret tension that pushes Members to potentially destroy the Host and steal the Religion for themselves, and gain all the relevant bonuses they would've had, had they founded it themselves.

---

Now, what would happen is that Religions essentially become early game (forced) Alliances.
Essentially, it's possible for Civilisations who do not happen to found a religion to be able to 'play the Religious game' by gaining actually relevant bonuses from Religions, and also being able to steal it.


Possible Extensions:

• Ability for Religious Members to create a Schism with this system
• Options for Religious Members to Host a mini-UN-style meeting where you can enact some type of Religious policy
• Options for Religious Members to condemn other players.
  • Notification: Religion of <Religion> has agreed to condemn <Your Country> // This leads to reduced tourism from that particular religious citizen for example

What do you guys think?

Love this idea! Turning Religion into a multi-Civ Battlefield adds a whole new layer of strategy and diplomacy.

The Host/Member system is genius, and removing Religious Victory is a great move. The tension between Hosts and Members is gonna create some epic gameplay moments.

The extensions you mentioned are awesome too. Schisms, mini-UN meetings, and condemnation mechanics could add a lot of depth.

 

[GeneralZIft]

owning the holy city should make you the religion host even when another civ is one unless the original host still exist or if the holy city is occupied

Well, realistically, if you conquer a holy city, it doesn't make you god-emperor of the remaining religious people.
Especially if you imagine it like if the Europeans conquered Mecca, does that make them Religious Host of Islam even if they have far less Religious Citizens?

So I reckon the best system is handing the 'Host'-ship to the next largest member of the Religion (next Civilisation with majority Religion of this Religion with the highest Religious Citizens)

EDIT: The Holy City should be a malleable decision. Once the original Civilisation is destroyed or conquered, the old Holy City can become a 'Former Holy City' with reduced benefits, and a new Holy City is claimed.
The longer a Holy City exists, the more reverence it should gain in terms of Religious Tourism and Culture.

Love this idea! Turning Religion into a multi-Civ Battlefield adds a whole new layer of strategy and diplomacy.

The Host/Member system is genius, and removing Religious Victory is a great move. The tension between Hosts and Members is gonna create some epic gameplay moments.

The extensions you mentioned are awesome too. Schisms, mini-UN meetings, and condemnation mechanics could add a lot of depth.

Thank you! I appreciate the compliments

 

[vorlon_mi]

I like this idea a lot. You've addressed a key point, to give other players a reason to adopt religiion A over religion B plus incentives to spread that religion domestically and/or internationally. You've also allowed the religion to grow / evolve if the originator is conquered or weakened.

Perhaps the later beliefs added to the religion would be decided at the meeting/conference of the Civs who have adopted it, giving an additional opportunity for diplomacy.

I LOVE the idea of a holy city being the one with the most reverance, as the game goes on. Age and number of adherents would certain affect reverance.

Totally agree that the current Civ6 religions victory would have to be scrapped; I am considering what might replace it, if anything.
On the one hand, if your re-imagined religion system is simply a tool for building an empire and influencing others, the system would play a role in achieving a diplomatic, cultural, or science victory. Research, by itself, is not a victory condition but a means to several ends. Spreading a religion and building up faith/reverance wouldn't help any one civ win the race to one of the victory conditions.

On the other hand, if we're adding a cool new system to the game, why not allow a player to use it as a way to win the game? Civ4 BTS introduced a second path to diplomatic victory through religion; some players liked it, while others found it easy to exploit. The tactic became known as "Apostolic Palace cheese." I would need to think more about how a mechanic which is designed to NOT be a race but be cooperative could also have a victory condition at the end.

 

[Blue whale]

Well, realistically, if you conquer a holy city, it doesn't make you god-emperor of the remaining religious people.
Especially if you imagine it like if the Europeans conquered Mecca, does that make them Religious Host of Islam even if they have far less Religious Citizens?

So I reckon the best system is handing the 'Host'-ship to the next largest member of the Religion (next Civilisation with majority Religion of this Religion with the highest Religious Citizens)

EDIT: The Holy City should be a malleable decision. Once the original Civilisation is destroyed or conquered, the old Holy City can become a 'Former Holy City' with reduced benefits, and a new Holy City is claimed.
The longer a Holy City exists, the more reverence it should gain in terms of Religious Tourism and Culture.



Thank you! I appreciate the compliments

I forgot to specify that you have to be part of the religion to be the host. And my reasoning for holy cities equaling hosting is because the number of people following a religion doesn't equal religious influence. Look at Indonesia they have the largest muslim population and don’t have many famous scholars coming from the region and compare it the current holder of the holiest city, in islam saudi arabia and there are many famous and influential scholars from it

 

[GeneralZIft]

I like this idea a lot. You've addressed a key point, to give other players a reason to adopt religiion A over religion B plus incentives to spread that religion domestically and/or internationally. You've also allowed the religion to grow / evolve if the originator is conquered or weakened.

Perhaps the later beliefs added to the religion would be decided at the meeting/conference of the Civs who have adopted it, giving an additional opportunity for diplomacy.

I LOVE the idea of a holy city being the one with the most reverance, as the game goes on. Age and number of adherents would certain affect reverance.

Thank you! I agree with your suggestions too, I think this kind of cooperative pseudo-alliance would make for engaging religious gameplay.

Totally agree that the current Civ6 religions victory would have to be scrapped; I am considering what might replace it, if anything.
On the one hand, if your re-imagined religion system is simply a tool for building an empire and influencing others, the system would play a role in achieving a diplomatic, cultural, or science victory. Research, by itself, is not a victory condition but a means to several ends. Spreading a religion and building up faith/reverance wouldn't help any one civ win the race to one of the victory conditions.

I tried to think of a replacement but nothing... The problem is Science, Culture, Score and Conquest are purely solitary ambitions. Yes, you might work with other players but usually you are both benefitting.

Religious victory, it won't work because it means you have to set your will on the entire Earth simultaneously, which is hard when absolutely everyone is against adopting foreign religions and will declare war against their own majority in a nonsensical way to prevent Victory.

With this system, players would be happy to spread a Religion of which they are only a member, because it means both the Host and the Member gain increased power overall.
With the member perhaps banking on stealing that power by becoming the Host with enough influence (eg. Religious meetings or Conquest etc.)

My recommendation is this:
With enough religious influence that you are the majority of everywhere - that should provide you with Diplomatic power to the point where you gain Victory.

So de facto victory. But not actually 'Religious' point blank. Maybe Diplomatic offshoot.