[GS] Religious Settlements - Gets you a ... Settler!

[Kwami]

Well, Lily likes his chops, so maybe that's what that preference is about.

But yeah, scouts offer a lot of upside. Exploiting CS's to steal builders and pillage tiles is a bit cheap, but meeting CS's first, finding wonders for era score, goody huts that can provide you bennies (like builders), meeting other civ's....and more. Must be a different perspective for a speed player, but seems like the choice to beat.

Yeah, but the last time I suggested that Lily build a Scout first, he demanded that I pay him $100 for being wrong or else he wouldn't talk to me. So, good luck with that.

 

[Ownsya]

How else will you meet city states first if not by using a scout? Also, if you explore far with your starting warrior or any other early units it puts you at risk of leaving your capital exposed since they take much longer to move over terrain than a scout does. So without the scout you're either killing your early exploration (and any potential rewards like goodie huts, natural wonders, cs first meets) or risking the safety of your capital (particularly at higher difficulties). Even if you want to early rush a neighbor with warriors a scout is useful to have to guide your military expedition though it might not be too crucial. That's how I usually look at it anyway but I'm far from the experience that some other players here have.

 

[kb27787]

How else will you meet city states first if not by using a scout? Also, if you explore far with your starting warrior or any other early units it puts you at risk of leaving your capital exposed since they take much longer to move over terrain than a scout does. So without the scout you're either killing your early exploration (and any potential rewards like goodie huts, natural wonders, cs first meets) or risking the safety of your capital (particularly at higher difficulties). Even if you want to early rush a neighbor with warriors a scout is useful to have to guide your military expedition though it might not be too crucial. That's how I usually look at it anyway but I'm far from the experience that some other players here have.

You have another unit, your starting warrior. On deity you are extremely unlikely to get any huts or first meets far away... The extra units AI has means that it is extremely unlikely there is anything left for you. The things that you can get near your starting position would already have been claimed by your warrior such that your scout has nothing to contribute.

On prince or cooked maps I'm sure scout openings do much better than otherwise.

 

[Victoria]

if you explore far with your starting warrior or any other early units it puts you at risk of leaving your capital exposed

the argument for a military unit first on deity is much much stronger than other levels. I often build a scout first on deity but I would rarely send it off too far because I treat a scout like a skirmisher. It stops barb scouts in their tracks due to ZOC, it slows down a very common threatening enemy warrior pack and will draw 1-2 away and I can get it before a slinger or warrior.

But I appreciate a satefy of a warrior first. Slingers are about hoping no super early rush occurs as it then puts you in the position of an early attack. The warrior scrum appears, you archer it, then take their lands. This is why many prefer slinger, it works and is very viable but is not the safest start.

The deity game has changed a lot since last patch.

Anyway, it is off topic. On deity RS is often not possible although I did get it last night with Victoria without the benefit of luxuries or CS but I did get a relic about T8.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

How else will you meet city states first if not by using a scout? Also, if you explore far with your starting warrior or any other early units it puts you at risk of leaving your capital exposed since they take much longer to move over terrain than a scout does. So without the scout you're either killing your early exploration (and any potential rewards like goodie huts, natural wonders, cs first meets) or risking the safety of your capital (particularly at higher difficulties). Even if you want to early rush a neighbor with warriors a scout is useful to have to guide your military expedition though it might not be too crucial. That's how I usually look at it anyway but I'm far from the experience that some other players here have.

The AIs has a lot of starting units, and they start exploration at T0. So a 5T scout doesn't really help and can hardly get any tribal village/ CS first meets. On the other hand a builder gives you 3 base yields, a culture boost, and money from selling luxury if you don't ban trade with AI. These are much better.

However you do need to meet everything on the map. So "builder first" does not mean we don't explore at all, but we'd rather delay that since a 5T scout does not provide a meaningful advantage than a 15T scout. You start with builder and settler. If I have enough money I usually buy a scout, or produce some extra warrior/slingers, to ensure I meet all CSs on the continent.

 

[Vandlys]

What is this Shift + Enter exploit exactly? I can't remember reading about it anywhere..

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

What is this Shift + Enter exploit exactly? I can't remember reading about it anywhere..

I was curious too. Found this thread:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...o-bank-production-science-and-culture.635057/

 

[Kwami]

On deity you are extremely unlikely to get any huts or first meets far away... The extra units AI has means that it is extremely unlikely there is anything left for you. The things that you can get near your starting position would already have been claimed by your warrior such that your scout has nothing to contribute.

This is nonsense. From playing lots of games and from watching others play lots of games, I can say that you're very likely to get numerous first meets and tribal villages on deity if you build a Scout or two to start. You're also likely to get some decent era score from discovering continents, natural wonders, and other players. Perhaps most importantly, you'll know where to settle the next few cities.

Not building a Scout just seems crazy to me.

 

[kb27787]

This is nonsense. From playing lots of games and from watching others play lots of games, I can say that you're very likely to get numerous first meets and tribal villages on deity if you build a Scout or two to start. You're also likely to get some decent era score from discovering continents, natural wonders, and other players. Perhaps most importantly, you'll know where to settle the next few cities.

Not building a Scout just seems crazy to me.

We must surely be playing very different games then... I dunno about you but if you spawn 10 tiles away from civs in all 4 directions chances are there will be games where you won't even get the first meet of a nearby CS even with your starting warrior on t5-10, before your first scout ever even comes out.

Unless perhaps you play on maps with civs or CSs removed so there is more open land?

 

[Kwami]

We must surely be playing very different games then... I dunno about you but if you spawn 10 tiles away from civs in all 4 directions chances are there will be games where you won't even get the first meet of a nearby CS even with your starting warrior on t5-10, before your first scout ever even comes out.

Unless perhaps you play on maps with civs or CSs removed so there is more open land?

I play on Small or Standard maps, usuall with mostly default settings and I very rarely remove any civs unless I'm doing something weird. I don't think I've ever spawned 10 tiles away from civs in all 4 directions. Do you play custom maps or only Terra or something?

 

[kb27787]

I play on Small or Standard maps, usuall with mostly default settings and I very rarely remove any civs unless I'm doing something weird. I don't think I've ever spawned 10 tiles away from civs in all 4 directions. Do you play custom maps or only Terra or something?

I've dabbled in some Terra, but mostly Pangaea.

I suppose it might help if I tell you I avoid coastal civs? Of course, this also does not quite apply if you are Russia or other civs which are biased to spawn near the edge, but I've had plenty of games where I have 3-4 immediate neighbors to worry about.

 

[Victoria]

Unless perhaps you play on maps with civs or CSs removed so there is more open land?

I don't think I've ever spawned 10 tiles away from civs in all 4 directions.

And this is the classic case of playing different civs as well as maps.
For example I play a lot of Victoria and so my playstyle and assumptions are often bound to having coast on one side and only 1-2 civs to deal with. Tomyris or Gilga will often be much more central as are Gorgo or Peri.many seem to play Phoenicia now and the mindset of them is even quite different from Victoria due to the way the civ plays with biremes and Cothon.
When I play Gorgo I can have 5 games in a row crushed in with 4 or more civs... but only if. I play a Pangea map which seems to be designed for the warmongers to roll through civs fast or die trying. Other games I’ll be 15-20 tiles away from a civ, even on my own part of a continent blocked off by mountains, but that is more a continental style.

Are you a Pangea player @kb27787 ?

 

[Beaver79]

If you play on slower speeds scouts have even less chance of finding first CS or huts. I usually do epic speed and it takes 9 turns to build a scout, so that is 4 more turns of the AI being able to use it's free units to find everything. Of course war is easier the slower the speed you go, but it does have some disadvantages.

On topic, religious settlements in all cases. Mali/Brazil/anyone is just better off with another city that early on. If I do get beat out to RS I wouldn't even consider Open Sky though. Pastures get harvested unless it's a horse.

 

[kb27787]

And this is the classic case of playing different civs as well as maps.
For example I play a lot of Victoria and so my playstyle and assumptions are often bound to having coast on one side and only 1-2 civs to deal with. Tomyris or Gilga will often be much more central as are Gorgo or Peri.many seem to play Phoenicia now and the mindset of them is even quite different from Victoria due to the way the civ plays with biremes and Cothon.
When I play Gorgo I can have 5 games in a row crushed in with 4 or more civs... but only if. I play a Pangea map which seems to be designed for the warmongers to roll through civs fast or die trying. Other games I’ll be 15-20 tiles away from a civ, even on my own part of a continent blocked off by mountains, but that is more a continental style.

Are you a Pangea player @kb27787 ?

99% of my games pre-patch were Pangaea, so yes...
Favorites civs are Kongo (if you didn't know by now), Eleanor and Greece (China occasionally)... I find they have great spawn biases for the most part.

Classic example just now, I run into a CS on t7 with my warrior (which would be around the time your scout could come out if you opened scout), less than 10 tiles from my starting spot... guess what, no first meet...

I've only played Terra occasionally post-patch... things such as loyalty flips and Eleanor work really well here... but otherwise it is just a crowded Pangaea.

 

[KayAU]

God of the Open Sky? I don't remember the last time I took that. My preference is usually Religious Settlements, which is even better when you play on Epic speed with the mod that makes Settlers unlock with Early Empire. I also really like Earth Goddess, especially as the Inca, as they can work mountain tiles. A couple of nearby Terrace Farms, and that mountain becomes a 2 food, 2 production, 2 faith tile, very much worth working (especially when you have as many available citizens as the Inca). Finally, if I can't get or make good use of those, Divine Spark is pretty nice, as I love getting great people.

Situationally I could go for:
God of the Sea - for coastal games
River Goddess - if I expect to build lots of Holy Sites
Dance of the Aurora - if I am playing as Russia

Then of course there's Fertility Rites...which at this point really seems to be a consolation prize if you failed to get Religious Settlements.

 

[LMT]

God of the Open Sky? I don't remember the last time I took that. My preference is usually Religious Settlements, which is even better when you play on Epic speed with the mod that makes Settlers unlock with Early Empire. I also really like Earth Goddess, especially as the Inca, as they can work mountain tiles. A couple of nearby Terrace Farms, and that mountain becomes a 2 food, 2 production, 2 faith tile, very much worth working (especially when you have as many available citizens as the Inca). Finally, if I can't get or make good use of those, Divine Spark is pretty nice, as I love getting great people.

Situationally I could go for:
God of the Sea - for coastal games
River Goddess - if I expect to build lots of Holy Sites
Dance of the Aurora - if I am playing as Russia

Then of course there's Fertility Rites...which at this point really seems to be a consolation prize if you failed to get Religious Settlements.

Divine Spark is almost always available. It's a solid choice when Religious Settlements (or any other Pantheon you really want) is already taken. Plus it helps in getting a religion on higher difficulties (Immortal and Deity).

 

[Bangau]

Ah, the classic 'it-depends-on-your-playstyle' discussion! Lovely... On the original question, I'd like to answer: there are certainly a few pantheons that are almost never useful, but there are definitely not just two that are always the best picks. Unless off course, you tend to always play the same type of game. If that's what you love to do, do it, personally I like to vary all aspects of the game a lot. From that perspective: I have tried builder first in the past many a time, but now will only do it when I have little space and good resources I can directly improve (after researching mining or animal husbandry). I find that a scout start will often be a better one. And if you know you'll have to fight soon: go warrior first or (go crazy...): a slinger. Like many mentioned in the other thread recently: there is no 'one option' that is always best. Luckily.