Representation of the Subaltern [CANCELLED]

Sorry, but I'm against making any political statements to the quotes we have in the mod, neither in one direction nor the other. This will fire up a political discussion nobody wants here.

"If they both have a weird sense of humour, everything is fine. They might also just play the game because of its strategic depth and ignore the historical references. I mean, I can play a game like Hearts of Iron, I can even play the Germans in that game, because I know it is just a computer game, I can dissociate the political and historical context and I am just interested in the strategy stuff. But not everyone is able to draw these clear lines, look at the forums of this kind of games"
Hm, maybe we should trust the people which visit this forum and wait until one claims for it. This is the first time in 15 years that someone brings up this thoughts here - as far as I remember. I therefore like to trust the players of the mod and would not start a political discussion where it is not required.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you mean, but I want to have a space here where we just talk about the game and we don't have to worry about possible, potential contingencies here that will probably never happen. That's just annoying. Anyway, can't we leave something like that out of this forum, please? Thank you.
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Sorry, but I'm against making any political statements to the quotes we have in the mod, neither in one direction nor the other. This will fire up a political discussion nobody wants here.
Not making a political statement is also a political statement. The status quo is also a political statement. The quotes are also a political statement. And the story told and game design is also a political statement in some way or another. (rest of my reply is not directed to anyone in particular)

If people is fine with that, ok. But let's stop the fallacy of "no political statements" when it really means "I'm ok with the current political statements, I prefer not to touch those topics". Just say that.

About the quotes, some people here have a conception of players which doesn't resemble their reality. Not all people is a native English speaker, so things like irony are not so easy to understand. A quote without context/explanation is a clear political statement (in the wrong way). And apart from "politics", it would be much clearer for non-English players if quotes and texts come with some kind of context/explanation. I have the feeling that people automatically assume other players are like them, with the same political context, knowledge of history, etc. and that's plain wrong. If you are ok with it, fine; but let's not repeat again and again that every player is fine with the current political statements, that everyone knows what's behind, etc. that's simply not true. And if every time someone points to it, we are told to change the topic because "no one" wants to discuss politics here... then that's just maintaining the status quo. There is politics there, just the one you agree/are comfortable with, so it's easy for you to change the topic ;)

About the design, I disagree with some of the replies about "punishing" players. The entire game is built around a punish/reward dynamic (that's what gamification is all about). Again another falacy. Some people here are simply stating they don't like "free" player punishment, while they clearly love player punishment/rewarding at another features. The problem is not the design, is the topic itself (punishing slavery or better said, showing the other face of slavery). Some people just prefer to left it as is (again the status quo), even if they don't agree with the storytelling behind it. XD That's kind of weird ;) Although I agree it's always easier to ignore something.

Anyway, my words remain. Slavery the way it has been designed is just a "math problem" (clearly balanced for rewarding the player) (*). Without political quotes, quests and storytelling, slavery is not only misrepresented, but also not historically accurate (since not everybody was ok with it) and doesn't show the other face slavery. Slavery may be economically a reward, but then it should also show the player the human cost. Either by storytelling, alternative strategies, lowering cultural/bells production, unhappiness events related to slavery abolitionism, etc. The storytelling could even allow a nation to adopt an attitude in favor/against slavery (changing relationship with other nations). I mean, the entire game is built around the WOI against the king because the king is oppressing the colony... that's ok to show (?). I see no difference for slavery.

And before people start saying that some of those changes could produce non-real/historic situations (like England being against slavery)... well, then let's remove all the map scripts and scenarios not related to America's colonization, or disallow Spain taking an English Founding Father XD (so please, let's not use the "historical sim." argument only against specific features while it's fine for others).

(*) And this is clearly reflected on the posts asking about why slaves have bonuses for some professions and not for others. People just expect slaves being general manual labor, because well... that's the way the game reflects slavery. Not giving X bonus to "avoid exploits" is just a patch to the underlying problem (treating slaves like any other unit for manual labor without more profound game implications than just some random revolt). There is no reason for players to not use slaves everywhere XD, so that's why the limit is there.
This is mainly supposed to prevent exploits.
(e.g. Trying to use Slaves for everything.)
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For political discussions, there are other places ... culture war is already fought everywhere in society.
So why not keep a little piece of private life where political and cultural topics do NOT have to be a topic?

I have enough "real life in my real life" ... enough disagreements, troubles, problems, ...
So why not have a small space where we can simply focus on gameplay and modding ... without any of that.

Not making a political statement is also a political statement.

Yes it is. :)

And it is very simple:
I do not want to waste my private time discussing politics or social views.
I have absolutely no motivation to start arguing with people or to tell them what to think.


We as modders trying to tell the players how to see the world considering political or social views would be arrogant and presumptious.
I consider the players to be smart enough to inform themselves about history and come up with their own opinions and conclusions.


We discussed this up and down the last days internally:
And we agreed that in our pivate time we want to have fun and focus on mod development.


Please understand that we do not want to have political discussions in the mod.
It is not fun and only serves to divide community.

Since I am quite convinced that this discussion now will continue endless, I rather chose:


And thanks for everybody that really wanted to become political again in modding.
It is so wonderful to waste time with pointless discussions that do not help anybody ...

So if you really want to contact me, I will still be around on discord.
At least there the community has not become political yet and wants to focus on the mod and game.


Goodbye. :wavey:

Have fun arguing about society and politics if that is how you want to spend your spare time.
I will rather have fun being a modder and playing a bit instead.
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This is the second thread this week, which turns into "the modders have made a decision I don't agree with. I will pressure them to do as I want without caring what they think". Believe it or not, given how much time we put into the mod often daily for years, we have considered a lot of issues. Most of them have never been mentioned in public. There are so many details to pay attention to when creating a project like this.

All you manage to do is hurt the mod progress and make everybody feel bad.

Not making a political statement is also a political statement. The status quo is also a political statement. The quotes are also a political statement
I'm so sick and tired of this statement because it is used to manipulate. It also contribute intentions to other people which they do not have.

A little over two centuries ago, England contacted Denmark to tell them to attack France (Napoleon). Denmark refused and pointed to the already announced statement of staying neutral. This resulted in England attacking Denmark twice, took the entire fleet as compensation (it would likely be given to France since it didn't aid England) and they bombarded Copenhagen while ignoring white flags.

So that statement that not engaging is a statement in itself was used to justify stealing ships and the first bombardment of civilians in history.

I view that statement kind of like when a mafia boss "gives an offer you can't refuse". It sounds polite, but the core is that you should join the person making that statement.

We have decided to be apolitical and aim at being as objective as possible with historical facts. Obviously some work has to be done to convert historical facts into game mechanics, which also contributes to balanced and fun gameplay. Adjustments are made to make the gameplay work rather than based on political views.
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