republic

[bryanwallace]

i have changed to republic-but am regretting it a bit
costs have gone thru the roof and citizens are very bolshy..

what are the benefits /other of republic and what other gov forms do people recommend..

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

People here say that just after the switch, you start losing lots of cash, but they also say that it levels out after awhile.

 

[Aabraxan]

Dominatrix pretty much hit the nail on the head. For me, the switch to Republic always seems to result in my economy bottoming out, at least in the short term. But once I get my empire set up for Republic, there's no need to switch to anything else. By the time I get all my specialist farms up and running,

Unit Support: Which version are you playing? In vanilla, Republic offered no unit support (IIUC), but in Conquests, Republic supports 1 military unit per town, 3 per city and 4 per metropolis. So getting a few of your towns to hit size 7 or above goes a long way towards unit support. Add some markets, both for the $$ and the happiness. The commerce bonus (+1 commerce to every worked tile already producing at least one) goes a long way to supporting more units, especially if your citizens work lots of roaded and riverside tiles.

The other common complaint about Republic is War Weariness, but it's not so bad if you manage your losses in war. Republic is a little more fiddly than Monarchy, which is generally considered good for the All-War variant, where you can never make peace.

Feudalism: I have to admit that I've played relatively little with Feudalism, so I don't really know much about it. But here's what I know. Feudalism is generally considered good for culture wins, where you can pop-rush the culture buildings. Its "inverted" unit support plays well into this, where towns actually provide more unit support than metros. Need a temple? Grab the whip. Paying too much in unit support? Grab the whip. In the few games (maybe only one, even) in which I used Feudalism, I have to admit that I was surprised by the military that my meager empire could field.

Communism, Democracy, Fascism: Never played any of them, but here's what I've read. Once you've settled into Republic, Monarchy or Feudalism, unless you're religious, there's no sense in switching. Communism comes too late in the game and has to be set up entirely differently from Republic. Democracy comes late in the game and is an optional tech, preceded by other optional techs (lots of unnecessary research to get to it). Fascism. All I remember is that I haven't read anything good about it, but I'll leave the details to others so that I don't give you any bad information.

Run a search through the fora and you'll find lots and lots of old threads on governments.

 

[bryanwallace]

thanks
how long is after a while??

playing conq...

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Having personally played communism and fascism, I have to say that communism is far better overall than fascism. It has the same support for all city sizes (6) and has corruption that ranges from somewhere between 33% and 66%, and this can really be a lifesaver, especially if you've built up a huge empire, and you want a productive one. In the standard game, I generally either stay in despotism because of the high unit support (I know, I have to kick the habit), or I switch to monarchy if my funds are sufficient. Generally, I control about 15-20% of the world (sometimes more) by the time of communism, and then those hundred or so cities start making wave after wave of troops (since most minor cities have similar productivity, every 10-20 turns a big wave of troops is produced), and then I can double my territory. I highly recommend communism. Fascism is good if you have an ultra-base, and you need it to support as much as possible while producing a lot as well. The 200% worker bonus is also amazing (1 worker/turn = 1 road).

 

[gmaharriet]

how long is after a while??

As with all things Civ, it depends.

Sometimes you can fix it almost immediately. MPs have no effect on happiness in Republic, so I usually disband ALL of my regular warriors for shields (saves 2gpt for each warrior). You only need military guarding your border towns, as your core is safe if it can't be reached by an enemy in a single turn.

Since you earn an additional gold piece on each tile worked and already producing at least one, your total income goes up. Often you can lower your science slider...a smaller % of a larger income can equal the same amount of research.

I usually wait to revolt until several of my towns are ~6 pop. As each town grows to 7+ pop, you get free support for 2 more units from each larger city. It may also be time to turn some of your citizens into tax collectors in your more corrupt towns.

Once you understand just what affects your revenues and expenses in Republic, you can start preparing to maximize its advantages before you actually revolt. Then you can also recover more quickly from the switch.

 

[MAS]

And make sure that you build LOTS of reads. Republic can't work if you didn't road enough.

 

[Optional]

Choosing a suitable government was a bit of a shot in the dark for me for a long while as well. You have to learn to assess in which state your empire is, and you have to decide which way you want to go with it.

Republic offers no MP, this means that your towns are more dependent on lux to keep them from rioting. Difficulty level also comes into play, because the difficulty level decides how many citizens are born content.
Let's assume you play Emperor. This means only one citizen gets born content. Let's assume you have one lux. That makes the content citizen happy, allowing for another citizen - because that citizen can be unhappy and you will still not riot. You can put the lux slider up a bit to allow for another few citizens, but there's a limit to how high you can put your lux slider. You can go bankrupt by putting it too high for too long. So if that would be your situation - towns maxing out at 4 or 5 citizens, because they would riot if you had more, then you would not be ready for Republic.
The strong point of Republic is the commerce bonus. Every worked tile that at least delivers one gold, offers one more gold in Republic. So your unit support will have to come mainly from the amount of worked tiles.
If you're only working 4 or 5 tiles per town, because they have only 4 or 5 citizens, then you will only make 4 or 5 gold more per town. That's before corruption. Maybe only 3 extra gold on average is left after corruption, although it makes a difference here whether your Forbidden Palace is built or not. The Forbidden Palace will lessen overall corruption, when built in a good spot.
In Republic, any unit over the free support limit will cost you 2 gold. The free support - in Conquests that is 1 per town and 3 per city - you basically need for you workers alone, meaning that you will pay for any military unit. When Republic would gain you only some 3 uncorrupted gold per town, then each town would only support about 1-and-a-half military unit. That's not good. Then there are government forms that allow you a much better unit support. Feudalism for instance: 5 free units per town, that's 1 worker and 4 military units.
But Feudalism is a system that was intended to help the player that got off on a bad start. Poor food situation, little lux; that means only small towns. Then Feudalism would help to build up a sizeable military and try and improve your situation through the sword. Then, if you did well in Feudalism during the Middle Ages, and your towns grew to cities, an age later different government forms would be available - Feudalism offers little unit support from cities.

Republic is the best system to pick in the early game, but it's not unconditional. You need to have made a fairly good start, which saw your empire developing nicely. With 3 lux you should definitely be able to set up your empire for Republic, also on higher difficulty levels. 2 lux and you're probably on a swing point.

 

[1940LaSalle]

Don't disagree with any of the above: in the game I'm currently involved with, I made the switch from despot to republic on the earlier side (ca. 1200 AD or a bit sooner) and the gold/turn went from modestly positive to significantly negative for a handful of turns. For what it's worth, I did go after other forms of government as techs to trade, even though I didn't have any intent of implementing them.

 

[gmaharriet]

In Republic, any unit over the free support limit will cost you 2 gold. The free support - in Conquests that is 1 per town and 3 per city - you basically need for you workers alone, meaning that you will pay for any military unit. When Republic would gain you only some 3 uncorrupted gold per town, then each town would only support about 1-and-a-half military unit. That's not good. Then there are government forms that allow you a much better unit support. Feudalism for instance: 5 free units per town, that's 1 worker and 4 military units.

Um, why would you need 3 workers per city in Republic and only 1 in Feudalism?

Also, if you should happen to go over the free support in Feudalism, the cost is 3gpt for each unit.

 

[Optional]

Um, why would you need 3 workers per city in Republic and only 1 in Feudalism?

Also, if you should happen to go over the free support in Feudalism, the cost is 3gpt for each unit.

The first bit: I didn't mean to say that. When Republic comes available, you will mostly still have towns. The more cities you have, the better unit support Republic will give you. If it's easy to grow cities, Republic is hands down the best system in an ordinary game. The free unit support alone will then already support some of your military, as you said.
Feudalism I've used a few times, and if you use it in the right situation, that is; if you mostly have just towns, than it's actually tough to come anywhere near the free support limit. In Republic I'm usually 2 or 3 times over the limit, I guess that's normal and Ok, but the same thing does not happen in Feudalism. It's best to still keep track of how near you are to your free support limit. If you happen to get nearer this limit in Feudalism, then it's best to expand. You surely will have enough units by then to do so!

 

[cronullasharks]

G`day.first post here after browsing for ages so not sure how that stuff on the left hand side of the page is going to look.....i think the first premise is that outside of a hard core despotic conquest , republic is ALWAYS better than despotism.....food is your friend and proper worker management timing irrigating grassland just before you switch (to allow the odd specialist) combined with some well timed forest chops to get to that 21 ,41 , 61 shield count for some last minute whips should help(marketplaces preferably)........ if playing on emperor or diety its unlikely that at this stage in the game you are allocating anything but bare minimum to science should mean you have a pretty healthy cash flow .so unit support is a non issue even in vanilla. In short , trade hard , obsessively chase luxuries , treat every decision regarding worker moves as a vital one and dont be afraid to fall behind a bit in tech to maintain a healthy economy.....you`ll catch up, especially as trade routes open up (just maintain your rep). Unless at war I try to be in republic almost as soon as I get it unless I need to whip a few things or irrigate some vital squares....another plus is improved relations with the other republics

 

[ALA Gator]

Download Civ Assisst II and use it. on the economy tab you can see what effect changes in govt will have on your economy / science. It will also help decide where you should put you FP.

 

[Marsden]

Welcome to CFC, cronullasharks!

And a great first post, too.


What I've learned over time, because I used to feel the same way too about switching to republic, is you have a lot of babysitters (military police) that you just don't need so I go through and disband most of the remaining warriors that I don't plan to upgrade or use right away. You will be suprised how much this can save. Another thing is, for every new town that you found you save 2 more gpt on unit support, plus whatever gold that new town makes, so found more towns! This should re-inforce the fact that you need a good expansion, because it's vital to Civ 3.

 

[cronullasharks]

Marsden . thanks for the welcome mate,

I`m guessing this is a pretty common scenario for a non religious or scientific civ........on diety or emp it goes something like this........You`ve traded your way into the second era and now find yourself a despot with no culture , maybe no iron and low on cities (If you fought a succesful ancient era war good luck to you but it cant be banked on).

But hopefully you have a road network , a few barracks , graneries and some walls......being either industrious or militaristic is gonna help.so now you can defend yourself , move around and hopefully trade some lux...ok good you are now on your way.

At this point I hope to buy republic , change ASAP , and study engineering at 10% (unless a scientific civ got it free. if so just switch science off). I dont need monoethism cause cathedrals are out of the question , even theology and education are no use at this point and without iron so is feudalism . So now I have an opportunity to fix my cashflow issues.if your army is costing you then you just have to deal with it...cant do without an army!!

If you get to engineering first you are now flying.....even second or third to get it will still give it some value to trade and catch up and trade for iron........hopefully you have used this period to build aqueducts and horseman (great for defence if you built your roads correctly and waiting to be upgraded to knights).

Now for the first time since you started you have some options.....a healthy republic , a military road network and knights ensures this. want to go to war and grab some resources or just clip your neighbours wings then go for it.... a leader or two now will be invaluable.

Want to build/ buy those middle age improvements(markets and courthouses are a priority).....go for it.your cities are a good size and tiles are improved.and you have cash.

I think the biggest trap you can fall into is building temples and libraries now as other civs are doing at better than double the pace

 

[Optional]

I quite like reading your posts, Cronullasharks. You must be a Vanilla player. The path you're taking to Republic would be considered a slow one in Conquests. In Conquests you get a free tech to choose if you're the first to research Philosophy. The quick path to Republic then goes like this: Writing - Code of Laws - Philosophy - grab Republic as your free tech. You can then be in Republic considerably earlier then would be possible in Vanilla.

The trade- and extortion mechanics will also have changed a bit as Civilization developed. It can probably still work Ok, the strategy you're describing. If I think I can get to a tech first - beyond the Ancient Age -, then I will always try researching as fast as possible. If the AI beats me to it, then that tech is not such good trade material anymore, unless I know decent civs that haven't got contact yet with the civ that got to the tech first - works better on a map with some sea.

In the Middle Ages, I tend to start with researching Monotheism - if no AI civ has it yet. I like the horizontal research path Monotheism - Theology - Education. The AI doesn't tend to research as horizontal as this, so there's a decent chance for me to get to a tech first, and then trade for the other techs. And I like the Copernicus wonder, so for that I find the route to Education also usefull, as it leads to Astronomy, the required tech for Copernicus.

Marsden, to come back at your remark that a new town founded saves 2 gpt on unit support: A new town founded will actually at first be an investment in Republic. That is because you will start with sending one or two workers over to develop the ground around the new town, and you will want the new town defended as well. So a new town will need support in the beginning, and that support will have to come from your old core. The new town will start to give back as it gets bigger, and more tiles get worked.
That sounds like a nitpick, it maybe is, but I'm focussing on this because I'm still trying to work out for myself when to go for Republic, and when for Feudalism. In Feudalism, a new town will support 5 units smack from the start. Support will not need to come from the old core, like in Republic. In Republic, I fell on my face a few times because I didn't have a core healthy enough to support further development.
I now tend to think I need at least two lux to justify Republic, as otherwise my core will remain too underdeveloped to support it, but I would welcome suggestions of other players. I'm only still learning.

 

[iambenben]

make sure your larger cities have colloseums and temples before switching (thats assuming you are in despotism first)

 

[civverguy]

make sure your larger cities have colloseums and temples before switching (thats assuming you are in despotism first)

You don't have to or might not need it at all. It depends on your luxury slider and the number of luxuries you own.

 

[cronullasharks]

Thanks Optional ,

I have a few off topic questions I hope you can help with cause I know zero about computers . Firstly whats the best way to ask an off topic question without interfering with the thread but getting the attention of the poster who you want to ask? (i.e like now)

2. I really want to play with the patches but I have no internet at home...can I buy them? Can i bring the disc to work and download them to the disc or does it have to download to my computer? (My computer is actually just a civ playing machine never used it for anything else)

3. Is this cheating ? say you want to buy a marketplace in a city that is producing ten shields......why not buy a knight for seventy shields then switch production to market where your ten shields will finish the job in one turn anyway but you save gold?

4. Why is everyone against city walls? If i play a militaristic civ and get them for ten shields they are a huge help early against barbs and extra security in your border cities in that vital early stage (assuming you are being fair dinkum and not just waiting till you get a perfect start)

 

[Aabraxan]

Firstly whats the best way to ask an off topic question without interfering with the thread but getting the attention of the poster who you want to ask? (i.e like now)

2. I really want to play with the patches but I have no internet at home...can I buy them? Can i bring the disc to work and download them to the disc or does it have to download to my computer? (My computer is actually just a civ playing machine never used it for anything else)

3. Is this cheating ? say you want to buy a marketplace in a city that is producing ten shields......why not buy a knight for seventy shields then switch production to market where your ten shields will finish the job in one turn anyway but you save gold?

4. Why is everyone against city walls? If i play a militaristic civ and get them for ten shields they are a huge help early against barbs and extra security in your border cities in that vital early stage (assuming you are being fair dinkum and not just waiting till you get a perfect start)

1) I'd say it's acceptable to ask an off-topic question or two, as long as you don't hijack the thread. We even have a smiley for it:

2) You should be able to download the patches to a disk and carry them home. In fact, I think you can download them off CFC. However, you'll need to know where to put them when you get the disk home.

3) No, it's not cheating. I think it's called short-rushing (unless I've misunderstood the term "short-rushing.")

4) I don't think everyone is against city walls. I'd rather be going on the offensive (where walls don't do me much good) than fighting defensive wars, but there's a time and place for walls.