[Request] Better colonization for BetterAI

[Rael]

I know it is not one of your priorites but I think it wouldn't take much effort to help AI with colonization on maps which enable it (particularly terra). Currently AI is so slow I am able to colonize an entire continent without a single AI city founded there even if I'm not on top of the tech race. I think on such maps AI should beeline for Navigation and Astronomy, use the caravels to discover and galleons to transport settlers and troops (to attack barbarian cities) as soon as they're availible. IMHO colonization race would for sure make the mid-game more interesting.

P.S. I love the BetterAI and I think it's the best mod for CIV so far

 

[Roland Johansen]

I know it is not one of your priorites but I think it wouldn't take much effort to help AI with colonization on maps which enable it (particularly terra). Currently AI is so slow I am able to colonize an entire continent without a single AI city founded there even if I'm not on top of the tech race. I think on such maps AI should beeline for Navigation and Astronomy, use the caravels to discover and galleons to transport settlers and troops (to attack barbarian cities) as soon as they're availible. IMHO colonization race would for sure make the mid-game more interesting.

P.S. I love the BetterAI and I think it's the best mod for CIV so far

The AI is ok at colonization. It's just bad at the terra map. The reason is the massive amounts of barbarian troops at the other continent. It doesn't know that those troops are there (unlike you) and will build the normal amount of troops needed to protect a starting city (1 or 2 longbowman/rifleman). That's ok on all maps except terra. On terra you need a very different tactic. You actually need more of an invasion tactic. So if the AI whould treat the second continent at terra maps as a foreign nation with which it is at war, then it would do ok. But it doesn't do that because there is no foreign nation there and it doesn't see the barbarian cities as one opposing force. The AI also doesn't learn. It looks at the new continent in the state that it is now and forgets failed settling attempts.

Two thinks might work:

1) a specific coding for terra maps (unlikely that the betterAI team goes on that road).

2) Letting the AI treat the barbarians as a foreign nation with which it is at war. I would like that as at present the AI also leaves the foreign cities close to it alone. I've seen the AI capture barbarian cities next to it with riflemen/infantry. They should have captured those cities far earlier (as much as 100 turns earlier). And they had the troops to do it. The AI just is too passive towards barbarians.

 

[TheNiceOne]

2) Letting the AI treat the barbarians as a foreign nation with which it is at war. I would like that as at present the AI also leaves the foreign cities close to it alone. I've seen the AI capture barbarian cities next to it with riflemen/infantry. They should have captured those cities far earlier (as much as 100 turns earlier). And they had the troops to do it. The AI just is too passive towards barbarians.

I think this is a very good solution, not only for the Terra Map, but for all maps.

As you write, I also see that the AI is extremely slow in trying to capture barbarian cities. Even those that are almost surrounded by a powerful AI nation gets to live much longer than optimal for the AI.

 

[Quagga]

As you write, I also see that the AI is extremely slow in trying to capture barbarian cities. Even those that are almost surrounded by a powerful AI nation gets to live much longer than optimal for the AI.

I agree that this happens, but it seems to me that it was caused by something in the 2.08 patch. My memory is that prior to that patch, the AIs loved to pick off Barbarian cities as soon as encountered. The AIs routinely beat me to picking off Barb cities near my borders.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I agree that this happens, but it seems to me that it was caused by something in the 2.08 patch. My memory is that prior to that patch, the AIs loved to pick off Barbarian cities as soon as encountered. The AIs routinely beat me to picking off Barb cities near my borders.

Are you sure that it happened with the 2.08 patch? I'm playing a (multiplayer) game with this version of the game and the AI went for a barbarian city deep inside my territory even before everything was settled. That was a quite different behaviour than what I'm seeing with the present version of betterAI.

I must say that going for barbarian cities that are located far away, deep inside a foreign civilizations borders before everything is settled also isn't ideal AI behaviour.

Maybe the 'view the barbarian cities as an enemy civilization behaviour should be triggered when there is no 'good' settling position 'close' to the capital anymore. We don't want to have the AI waiting to capture good barbarian cities because there is still some tundra location that can be settled or a far away island that can be settled.

Good settling position could be defined with the settling values as they are now, just use a certain border value as good. Close to the capital should be a value that is related to the map size.

 

[Quagga]

^^^ Actually, not sure at all. I switched to playing Better AI as soon as I became aware of it, which was at most a few weeks after 2.08 came out. But I don't remember any BAI release notes saying anything about AI propensity to attack Barbarian cities.

 

[Roland Johansen]

^^^ Actually, not sure at all. I switched to playing Better AI as soon as I became aware of it, which was at most a few weeks after 2.08 came out. But I don't remember any BAI release notes saying anything about AI propensity to attack Barbarian cities.

As you probably also realised yourself, it could easily be a byproduct of another change. Even capable AI modders like Blake and Iustus can't possible foresee every possible result of the changes they make.
It could also be a deliberate change that was not documented (forgotten or considered too minor). As I said in my previous post, the AI behaviour versus barbarian cities in earlier versions of Warlords and vanilla Civ4 wasn't ideal either.

 

[Khamul]

As you write, I also see that the AI is extremely slow in trying to capture barbarian cities. Even those that are almost surrounded by a powerful AI nation gets to live much longer than optimal for the AI.

In my last game there was a barbarian city in 1600 AD, and it was defended by 3 warriors! In a same island there was also 2 carthagian cities and 2 spanish cities, and both had lot of riflemen. And finally I took that city.

Yes, I think this need to be fixed.

 

[Yakk]

You should never view barbarian cities as an enemy city.

Rather, you should view them as an alternate form of colonization.

Determine how much military resources it would take to conquor the city (via either pure unit-rush or siege and conquor). Determine if you have that much resources free, and how much the conquest would cost you in terms of lost units. Evaluate local barbarian counterattacks against your plan. Then take'm out if it is worth it.