[Request] Indonesia Guide

[KaoticKanine]

Greetings! Just joined this forum as I've been playing Civilization 5 a lot recently and in particular want to get good at Vox Populi (the Community Patch Project, right?). I probably should post in an introductions thread first ^_^; But I have no idea where that is and I just want to cut to the chase lol

So, INDONESIA! This Civ has fascinated me ever since I saw their UA, providing them THREE unique luxury resources, and I've been wanting to win a game of Vox Populi as Indonesia with that UA in mind. However, I've run into a bit of a snag when it comes to playing Indonesia... How do you win as them?

Like, my first instinct with Indonesia is to immediately settle a LOT of cities to get the unique luxury resource I didn't get with the capital, as well as have more of them to trade with. But how exactly do I tailor this to one of the four methods of Victory? I don't see how this playstyle works with Science. Culture seems sensible but apparently settling multiple towns kills culture output. I guess the resources help with trading for World Congress votes, aiding with Diplomacy, but otherwise has nothing to do with City States as far as I can tell. Domination seems to be the best style of play for Indonesia since their UA works with conquering cities, their UU can be absurdly powerful with enough luck, and the luxury resources mitigates the unhappiness from warfare/conquering cities (not to mention I get to listen to their awesome war theme more frequently lol), but my many Domination attempts have faltered, even with Domination oriented civs, and warmonger penalties are quite severe...

There's also the matter of Policies and location, which are hard to decide on. Progress seems like a no-brainer since it benefits multiple settling and workers, but Authority would be ideal for dealing with a neighbor who inevitably gets mad at my settling, not to mention has a policy that gives a free Settler and rewards settling/conquest. And I can't tell if I'd want a forest/jungle dominated location for maximum plantations (which synergizes with the Candi, should I get Cocoa and/or Citrus, as well as the "Goddess of Springtime" Pantheon) or a Grassland so I can navigate units easier lol

Sorry if it seems like the answer is obvious lol I'm fairly new to Civilization and still learning things. I thank you in advance for any tips, suggestions, and overall guides for playing Indonesia

 

[tu_79]

Welcome! We don't have any greetings thread. Maybe we're not polite enough.

Not a guide, but helps at making your own strategy:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/highlights-for-civs.609526/

You can play more or less as you like, but try to make good use of the extra monopolies, the extra happiness, and the focus on We Love The King Days. These are your extra yields.
That said, Indonesia works pretty well when expanding aggressively, but you don't need to push as hard as a warmonger civ.

 

[KaoticKanine]

Ah, I see

Thank you so much I've actually seen through that thread before, but admittedly I was skimming through it and didn't quite understand Indonesia's "highlight" ^_^;
Okay, so I guess the most efficient strat for Indonesia is to settle enough towns to get all three luxury resources and make use of the monopoly and UB (Candi) for Cultural Victory, since the Candi boosts GP generation and provides Culture for these resources, with WLTKD boosting Culture even more. But in the event of settling too many cities for Culture victory to be possible, Diplomacy can be done

 

[Txurce]

Regardless, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Strategy section? Othrwise, whatever information is provided is more likely to be lost within weeks.

 

[KaoticKanine]

... I thought this is in the Strategy Section? Do you mean this should be moved out of it?

 

[Txurce]

... I thought this is in the Strategy Section? Do you mean this should be moved out of it?

Why would you think that -- because it says "Strategy" at the top?

My mistake -- sorry!

 

[ElliotS]

Indonesia is kinda like Ethiopia where you can comfortably do whatever you want, with some extra bonuses along the way. Despite what the "best" method for playing them is, they're extremely flexible and don't be afraid to abandon an untenable strategy for another one.

As for Warmongering: Just keep working on your skills. That's one of the main places players can gain advantage on the AI, so if you ignore it you're going to have a hard time.

 

[KaoticKanine]

S'all good Txurce! I was just confused lol I was like "I thought I created this thread in the strategy section"

Ah, so Indonesia is a "jack of all trades"! No wonder I was having such a hard time deciding how to play them Well that's great to know > Thank you for that info

Well, my main problem with Domination in Civ 5 (Vox Populi) is that taking cities is so tedious lol Like, even if I get an army of Swordsmen in the early game, it's going to take at least 15 turns or so to claim a single city, not helped by needing to heal the damage the Swordsmen inevitably sustain, and while I know how "complain-y" that sounds lol Time is exceedingly important in a war (especially if one of my cities is right next to a Civ who is disliking my warfare and gearing up a huge military...). I know making cities easier to capture are what Siege weapons are for, but even they seem to do minimal damage to a city and they are beyond slow. Most of the time, my siege weapons arrive to a targeted city right when I'm about to conquer it lol
Right now, I'm in an actually successful Domination game as Mongolia, but that's mostly because of the +2 movement for Cavalry and rushing the relevant tech so they aren't countered (as well as getting a ton of Silver at my starting location, mitigating unit maintenance). Otherwise, I had a difficult time taking a single city even as the Zulu And, of course, there's the issue of maintaining the cost for all those units and happiness to keep them combat capable. I'll keep working on them skills as you suggested ;D Just wondering how to go about it

 

[tu_79]

S'all good Txurce! I was just confused lol I was like "I thought I created this thread in the strategy section"

Ah, so Indonesia is a "jack of all trades"! No wonder I was having such a hard time deciding how to play them Well that's great to know > Thank you for that info

Well, my main problem with Domination in Civ 5 (Vox Populi) is that taking cities is so tedious lol Like, even if I get an army of Swordsmen in the early game, it's going to take at least 15 turns or so to claim a single city, not helped by needing to heal the damage the Swordsmen inevitably sustain, and while I know how "complain-y" that sounds lol Time is exceedingly important in a war (especially if one of my cities is right next to a Civ who is disliking my warfare and gearing up a huge military...). I know making cities easier to capture are what Siege weapons are for, but even they seem to do minimal damage to a city and they are beyond slow. Most of the time, my siege weapons arrive to a targeted city right when I'm about to conquer it lol
Right now, I'm in an actually successful Domination game as Mongolia, but that's mostly because of the +2 movement for Cavalry and rushing the relevant tech so they aren't countered (as well as getting a ton of Silver at my starting location, mitigating unit maintenance). Otherwise, I had a difficult time taking a single city even as the Zulu And, of course, there's the issue of maintaining the cost for all those units and happiness to keep them combat capable. I'll keep working on them skills as you suggested ;D Just wondering how to go about it

If you surround the city, it gets a -20%CS. Siege units are designed specially for crumbling city walls, but you may use melee too. Once you conquest half a neighbour, you might vassalize him so you don't really need to conquer all of their cities. Also, for a domination victory you only need to control all capitals, so you may conquer only the secondary cities that are on the way, and pillage/cripple the rest. The bigger you get, the easier you're going to capture cities. Just respect war weariness and sue for peace before it strikes hard.

 

[ElliotS]

S'all good Txurce! I was just confused lol I was like "I thought I created this thread in the strategy section"

Ah, so Indonesia is a "jack of all trades"! No wonder I was having such a hard time deciding how to play them Well that's great to know > Thank you for that info

Well, my main problem with Domination in Civ 5 (Vox Populi) is that taking cities is so tedious lol Like, even if I get an army of Swordsmen in the early game, it's going to take at least 15 turns or so to claim a single city, not helped by needing to heal the damage the Swordsmen inevitably sustain, and while I know how "complain-y" that sounds lol Time is exceedingly important in a war (especially if one of my cities is right next to a Civ who is disliking my warfare and gearing up a huge military...). I know making cities easier to capture are what Siege weapons are for, but even they seem to do minimal damage to a city and they are beyond slow. Most of the time, my siege weapons arrive to a targeted city right when I'm about to conquer it lol
Right now, I'm in an actually successful Domination game as Mongolia, but that's mostly because of the +2 movement for Cavalry and rushing the relevant tech so they aren't countered (as well as getting a ton of Silver at my starting location, mitigating unit maintenance). Otherwise, I had a difficult time taking a single city even as the Zulu And, of course, there's the issue of maintaining the cost for all those units and happiness to keep them combat capable. I'll keep working on them skills as you suggested ;D Just wondering how to go about it

It's funny that you mention Zulu, because I'm crushing with them in a game right now. Here are some tips:
1- Learn to use melee units to hit cities.
In vanilla ranged units were OP. Melee units have a ton of use now. Especially when a city is surrounded and has -20% CS, melee units tear it apart. Additionally just hitting the city with ranged units will let the defender heal, while battering it with melee units as well kills the defender much quicker. When the unit in the city falls, the city takes way more damage.

It's not always the right choice to hit the city, but with practice it should become intuitive when to hit it and when to hold back.

2- Time your wars.
Going to war right after getting longswords or knights is a great idea. Doing it right after unlocking universities when you're still sitting on swordsmen is a bad idea. Going too hard on timing is a bad idea, but if you don't fight around your UU and other power peaks you've got room to improve.

3- Sometimes you need to focus their city, sometimes you need to focus their units. We've all been there: You focus down the city, only to have lost a unit or two to their forces and inevitably have it taken back. Or maybe you try to kill off their forces, but you're fighting in their territory around their city and get pincered and crushed as their units just keep coming in waves and waves.

Judging their economic power to replace losses, the speed with which you can take the city or kill their forces, the overall goals of the war and other factors will help you decide what is the best course of action.

4- Obviously: Siege weapons are important. You can take some cities without them, but most of the time once walls are gotten they'll get you through.

Those are some of my tips. Hope they help.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Sieging cities efficiently is definitely all about timing and bringing the right proportion of units. Unless you have a Unique unit or ability that lets you break the standard "rules", you typically want about 4-6 melee units and 2-3 each of ranged and siege units per city you want to take (assuming you are fighting an opponent at the same tech level including era-appropriate city defenses). If you're a tech level above your opponent you can get away with bringing less units, and you'll likely also need cavalry and ranged mounted units to kill incoming defending units trying to protect the city. If you're behind in technology or your opponent has the benefit of an era-appropriate unique unit, you're going to need even more units to fight them.

Like ElliotS said, it's also all about timing. If your opponent has a city without walls, you can probably take it easily with just spearmen, horsemen, and some archers (or even just a LOT of spearmen). Once walls come up you're going to need catapults and swordsmen (or, again, a LOT of spearmen with ranged support). And once castles come into play you'd better have trebuchets and longswordsmen or you might as well not even bother. These basic "rules" are of course malleable depending on what Unique Units and Abilities you have to work with. Zulu can get away with spamming spearmen and pikemen with less ranged support because their Unique Ikanda promotions give these units extra speed, power, and defense. Indonesian Kris Swordsmen are a great unit to siege cities with if you can also support them with catapults, and they're definitely strong enough to stand up to walled cities if they have appropriate support.

One thing I like to do is build a few archers and make sure they get experience fighting barbarians in order for them to get Accuracy I and Medic I. Then I send them to stand behind my siege melee units to boost their healing while they surround a city. I take turns alternating between attacking with the melee units and fortifying and healing. Or if the defending has a lot of incoming unit the melee units will just surround the city I want to take and fortify/heal every turn while they absorb the hits. I use the ranged units to attack the city and defending units, and bring in some mounted units to make sure enemy melee units can't get to my squishy ranged units. All the pieces work together, and it makes sieging a city much more efficient and quick, even if I'm matched technologically with my opponent. Getting those ranged units to Medic II is a priority so that they can further support the melee units in front of them, and I'll often give my front-line infantry Cover I as soon as its available.

 

[Stalker0]

One other tip from a non warloving player...medic units are so very important. The difference it makes is tremendous.

It affects how long your frontline can hold, and how quickly you recover to attack again.

Going from play with few medics to now playing strongly with them...the difference is night and day

 

[tu_79]

That's also a good role for the scout that has little left to scout: Medic. Archers can heal from behind, but scouts can heal from the front, heal more HP themselves and might survive if the terrain is good.

 

[neo_arcadia]

Welcome to Vox Populi! If you still need write-up about Indonesia I will give you some, hopefully understandable for new player in terms of mechanics and anything that I think is relevant. You will not get any guide from my write-up because it's about my perspectives on Indonesia. One thing I consider important about this game is that every Civ is unique in playstyle and while the overall strategy is probably seems identical between two civilizations, the tactics sometimes makes a great difference. For me, trying out new Civ can be quite troublesome if you already familiar and drilled with one type of playstyle because your preference in one Civ probably not optimal if used in another Civ with different strengths and weaknesses. For example, if you already enjoying blasting weak neighbor and tried to play peacefully with tourism you will experience something new and maybe lose in the first try. And that's totally fine. That shows you a different perspectives about handling another Civ and that's something that I personally enjoy. Luckily, there are sweet spots about every individual playstyle whether to attack or defend in one particular condition if, for example, you try to balance your playstyle about going to war or not.

About Indonesia, this is my write up about my approach and perspectives. I am a Progress-minded-player. It means I mostly pick Progress as social policy and play around with it. Whatever Civ I play I always start with progress. Sometimes I mix a bit with Honor, but it only happened like, twice in probably almost a hundred of games just because I wanted to play little bit different. Other settings I usually play with is King Difficulty, random world conditions, Communitas, Huge Map, 8 players.

Unique Abilities: Every time you found a City, one of three unique Luxuries will appear next to or under the City. All of three can be accessed via plantation. It means: one, it's bundled up in one tech tree of Calendar. Two, your pantheon can be bundled up in plantation-based pantheon (I forgot the name, sorry). Three, you will (most probably) have three source of guaranteed happiness so you can train settlers a bit more in early game. Four, in the future you definitely will have option to go for Corporations because you have (hopefully) three monopolies required for Trader Sid's. Five, because one new tile will be occupied with luxury (if it's not under your city) you sometimes need the technology to chop down a tree which is in the bottom section of tech tree (credited to jungle-forest bias of Indonesia). Monopoly on Cloves give you 5 immediate happiness. Monopoly on Nutmeg gives you +3 production boost on that tile. Monopoly on Pepper gives you +20% growth in all cities. Two of those three gives you global boost while the other one gives you local boost. This is where luck comes in play because theoretically, you only want 1 source of Clove and Pepper while you want to have as many Nutmeg tiles as possible. But this is not that big of deal in after early game especially because you can trade out all your extra copies of three resources. Generally speaking, if you want to trade them out with every Civ possible, you will need number of cities 1.5x the number of civilizations. With 8 players (including you) you need 12 cities. Again, this is just an approximation. The number of cities depends on a lot more variables, not just because you will have three types of luxuries, which is silly. If you are playing against random CIv and The Netherlands also happened to be on the game, do not trade your resources with them. Their Unique Abilities give them boost based on luxuries they exported or imported. Other AI will trade with them though, you just need to weigh more than normal when trading with them as Indonesians.

When you move out settlers in early game, I highly recommend you to accompany them with workers to improve the luxury ASAP. Having free luxury tile means the total amount of that luxury varies according to you. It affects monopoly status of your Cloves, Nutmeg and Pepper. One important timing is when, for example, you have Nutmeg on your capital and the second city you found also randomly spawns Nutmeg. Before, you have 100% control of Nutmeg available on the map which grants you monopoly status of Nutmeg. Now, you loses your monopoly status, albeit only temporary, because there are two sources of Nutmeg on the map now. If you're not in haste of connecting the new Nutmeg, you lose some opportunity costs. The same principle applies on the other two luxury resources. This is not troublesome in many cases but it does affects your planning a little but. Another thing about this "free tile thingy" is that you can somehow have options to occupy those big chunk of desert tiles and even SNOW tiles. Your extra luxuries do not care about tiles, as long as it's not restristed like mountains, oases, etc. Quite handy if you want to cover entire continent lol.


Unique Units:Kris Swordsman. Replaces Swordsman. Starts with Mystic Blade Promotion (Promotion is replaced with a randomly chosen new promotion after the unit completes its first combat). This is a very cool unit which comes in the early game. With adequate source of Iron you will get superior army to conquer city-states or your neighbor if you want more glory. They are not immortal though (or.. are they? Little bit about that later) so do use them carefully. Coming in the early game, this potentially powerful swordsman gives you an edge in early warfare and also later warfare if you can take care of them. Each Kris Swordsman is different with other Kris Swordsman because of their promotion which affects individual unit. If I'm not misteken there are ten different random promotions. On top of my head there are +30% when attacking, +30% when defending, +20 when healing, can attack twice while having one extra movement point, acts as Great Generals, +50% flank attack, 50% chance healing 10 HP in enemy territories, heals all HP if kills non-barbarian units. I don't exactly remember all of the promotions but hopefully it gives you an idea about Kris Swordsman. With these specific promotions, you are expected to manage them properly. Or.... not. I mean, if you are considering all of promotions making you weighing too much on micromanagement and you don't like it, just treat them as "strong swordsman with built in Great Generals". That's pretty much about Kris Swordsman. Don't forget to always manage your Iron supply properly.


Unique Building: Candi. 2 Faith and 2 Culture. A Clove, Pepper or Nutmeg Resource will appear near or under this City when built. +25% Great People generation in the City, and +20% to Culture and Faith during We Love the King Day. +1 Food and +1 Gold from Citrus and Cocoa worked by this city. 2 Maintenance. Another extra boost for your plantation-heavy Civ. With constant output of Great Merchants you will be having noticeable amount of additional faith and culture. Great Merchant gives you lump sum of gold and immediate We Love the King Day in all your cities when you sent them to city states. It sinergizes well with any We Love The King Day bonus such as synagogue. If you are playing this playstyle you need to manage Great Merchant generations. It means prioritizing Market, Custom House and Bank more. Trading with another Civ is also an available option. This particular approach somehow dictates you to play peacefully to grab that trade agreement with that very far Civ who happens to have access to luxuries. Well, nobody dictates you and you are free to experiment what you consider the best option. Finding the balance is, for me, one of important aspect in playing any particular Civ.

I think this is the end of my write-up about Indonesia. I appreciate any suggestions and corrections. Indonesia is unique and insteresting Civ and because it's a "jack of all trades" Civ everyone can tailor Indonesia differently. Cheers.

 

[randomnub]

I just went through an Indonesia game (stopping now due to new patch/late game boredom/winning position) with a jungle heavy start that made impossible to focus on early monopolies. Luckly enough my immediate neighbour was Byzantium and not Rome or Iroquis so going for a Classical offensive yielded good results.

A quick (not very detailed, just to give you an idea) deity playthrough here:

https://imgur.com/a/9Z2vR

I played 'for fun' while trying to maximize on my UU/UB potential, turned out well for this particular game but some macro choices are pretty questionable. Like, being able to found on t100 but planting the first prophet while waiting 10 more turns for Byzantium to found her (crappy) religion only to usurp it, and then ending with a Goddess of Festival Holy City causing huge poverty in all the empire, my own capital included Good thing I was Indonesia and Happiness never was an issue.

A couple of things I noticed:

- The Pepper monopoly is 'now' +3F per tile, from +20% growth. Not sure if bug or feature, It works ok in new cities, bit worse if you want to focus on a smaller Traditional empire.
- Cities gained in peace deal don't provide a bonus luxury, and from somebody else bug report Hanging Gardens free candi also doesn't give anything; to get the best spice spam you should conquer->raze->found a new town; it's actually possible to 'farm' some future city location by letting multiple settlers cover an area before you declare, and leaving that zone unsettled until you can found a town with 4-5 bonus luxuries, in middle of their ruins. Not saying it's efficient warmongering, but it's fun. Obviously only works if you went Authority and get some science/culture from all that warring.
- Your early-middle game monopolies are volatile. By settling/conquering new towns or completing a bunch of candi at the 'wrong' moment, before you connected previous resources, expect to lose them. Not a big issue but care with the cloves (happiness) one.

Now to proper civ review:

- UA: Solid. Being all plantation luxuries though, you give up a lot by not beelining Calendar, and at the same time it's hard to found with Springtime by not going Trade first. Herbalists are very good for you, but in that case you must focus on markets. Anyway, by going the top of the tech tree you leave Iron Working for late, and that rules out a swordmen rush. Progress Indonesia plays like this, and with peaceful neighbours it makes for a solid early game economy. With no more +%growth monopoly, and having a lot of good tiles to work, I feel Tradition Indonesia is not a great option but sure it can work due to the UB.
- UU: I do have mixed feelings about this. On the plus side, I had a lot of fun with full heal on kill + blitz/extra movement, or invulnerability+march/medic. Units working as Generals give you more citadels to toy with. On the other hand, planning in advance due to the randomness of these promotions is not possible, I have to decide on Drill/Shock path right after coming out of barracks, before knowing what random promotion I'm going to get, and some are pretty bland. Having as much base strength as other swordmen, the Kris aren't an overwhelming threat when they come out, and if you focus on improving your plantations/get a religion they also come out late, when enemy Horsemen and Skirmishers are too strong opponents; let's not even talk about having to fight against Legions, or even Hoplites/Immortals. Instead, I feel that Indonesia ''better UU'' are Kris upgraded to Longswordmen, coming at a time few civs have good enough defense, and with enough CS to be used against walled cities.
- UB: Very situational base building, coming in medieval and granting +2F/C by default. That makes it pretty weak on paper, especially when compared with, well, pretty much any other UB. Obviously the 'side benefits' are what you must build upon, so get as many Faith & Culture beliefs as you can and actively trade for WLTK. The problem with yield multipliers is that the base numbers in no-capital cities are usually pretty low, especially the Faith. The bonus resource feels like an extension of the UA more than a UB feature, not complaining about that (really it what makes the building worth beeline for expansions), it just feels odd that the unique Indonesia resources aren't buffed by the building at all though.

Definitely a jack-of-all-trades civ, but if you want to get better milleage out of your UA (getting more spices on new towns) and not ignore the UU that is on the 'wrong' side of the tech tree compared to what UA/UB dictate, I think Authority Indonesia plays smoother, as long as your neighbours allow for it. Also, you really want to play Imperialism (Colonialism and Exploitation are both huge for you), case in point:

Spoiler :

Before and after colonialism. 4 turns. Look at the science/culture/happiness/gold/everything. And I'm not in GA yet.

Those are pre-archaeology Holy Sites and are also hilarious but nutmeg and pepper (and citrus, and cocoa, and pearls... ) are GPI-tier. Also the spare citadels you get out of 'free' Kris Generals become solid improvements.

Obviously, Imperialism without warring loses some appeal but I'm thinking 2 points into Artistry (Humanism) and 4 into Imperialism could work for a peaceful approach. Actually, for Indonesia I should probably go that way because the Improved Leadership Promotion doesn't apply to the Kris-Generals (I think) and feels a bit wasted.

 

[randomnub]

Damn I forgot about the best part of that game: camel balls heating trade routes.

Spoiler :

 

[pineappledan]

I didn't realize you could expend your kris swordsman generals for citadels, I thought they just had the aura.

If that's the case, even more reason to go imperialism, because of the 2/5 on citadels

 

[randomnub]

No, the idea is I spend all other generals on citadels because I can use the Kris Generals.

Insert random praise about civ6 civilian-escort feature.

 

[KaoticKanine]

I was not expecting all these Domination victory tips XD But thank you all so much! I'll try to apply these tips in my next Domination games (and now I know why taking that Portugal city was so hard as the Zulu lol It was coastal and didn't have boats)

And thank you so much for that very detailed guide, randomnub