Research like in Civ 3
- Thread starter jmik99
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Spatzimaus
Mad Scientist
You could make a mod that does this, yourself, although it'd take a lot of work to do it right. A few people have talked about implementing something along these lines, but I don't know of one that's laid it out explicitly. What you'd have to do is add a new tech at the end of each era, one that requires the previous ones, and all techs at the start of the next era require that tech. The awkwardness is that you'd have to adjust the GridX values of every existing tech to make it fit, and techs can't have more than 4 prerequisites, so the Classical Era wouldn't work for this without some rearrangement.
Besides, it's not necessary. If you're objecting to a few SPECIFIC cases where you can beeline to a given tech to get a certain unit or wonder ahead of "schedule", then go fix that instead. All it takes is a few cross-connections in the right places, and you'll get nearly the same effect without it being so absolute. So if
A -> B
C -> D
and what you're objecting to is people beelining for D, then just make D require A as well as C. Do this enough, and you create a "pyramid" approach where it's effectively impossible for your highest researched tech to be more than a couple tiers above your lowest unresearched tech. To see what I mean, go look at my own mod (Crazy Spatz's) in the Modpacks forum; I arranged my future eras this way. (Tech tree screenshots are in the second post in that thread.)
Forcing people to take all techs in an era before progressing to the next one is also just bad design in general. There's a reason it was dropped after Civ3; basically, the creation of bottlenecks is bad in a game that involves first-come-first-served Wonders. Think about it; if there's a Wonder at a Classical tech, and you can't take any Classical techs until you research all Ancient techs, then you KNOW that if you're the first player into the Classical that you have no competition for that Wonder. Likewise, if someone enters the Classical era, you KNOW that they've unlocked that Ancient-era Wonder you've been building.
Under the current system, though, you can't be sure. Just because they entered the Classical doesn't mean they have the tech needed to race you in that ancient Wonder, and conversely, just because they clearly haven't built something in the Ancient era doesn't mean they couldn't reach the Classical any moment. It's a lot more uncertain, and uncertainty favors the AI.
Besides, it's not necessary. If you're objecting to a few SPECIFIC cases where you can beeline to a given tech to get a certain unit or wonder ahead of "schedule", then go fix that instead. All it takes is a few cross-connections in the right places, and you'll get nearly the same effect without it being so absolute. So if
A -> B
C -> D
and what you're objecting to is people beelining for D, then just make D require A as well as C. Do this enough, and you create a "pyramid" approach where it's effectively impossible for your highest researched tech to be more than a couple tiers above your lowest unresearched tech. To see what I mean, go look at my own mod (Crazy Spatz's) in the Modpacks forum; I arranged my future eras this way. (Tech tree screenshots are in the second post in that thread.)
Forcing people to take all techs in an era before progressing to the next one is also just bad design in general. There's a reason it was dropped after Civ3; basically, the creation of bottlenecks is bad in a game that involves first-come-first-served Wonders. Think about it; if there's a Wonder at a Classical tech, and you can't take any Classical techs until you research all Ancient techs, then you KNOW that if you're the first player into the Classical that you have no competition for that Wonder. Likewise, if someone enters the Classical era, you KNOW that they've unlocked that Ancient-era Wonder you've been building.
Under the current system, though, you can't be sure. Just because they entered the Classical doesn't mean they have the tech needed to race you in that ancient Wonder, and conversely, just because they clearly haven't built something in the Ancient era doesn't mean they couldn't reach the Classical any moment. It's a lot more uncertain, and uncertainty favors the AI.
Spatzimaus
Mad Scientist
It wouldn't take much. There are really only a few key places where cross-connections would make a big difference, generally at points where you beeline along the bottom of the tree for a key military unit.
For instance, take the Longsword. The problem isn't just that Steel only depends on Metal Casting; it's that Metal Casting also only depends on Iron Working, which only depends on Bronze Working, which only depends on Mining. So you can go from an X=1 tech to a X=5 one without touching anything else. (The same is true for Pottery -> Compass, but there are no military units along that stretch so it's not as abuseable.)
So just make Metal Casting require Construction as well. That'd effectively make Longswords require two additional techs (Masonry and Construction) that you could have skipped.
A similar issue happens a bit later, where Rifling depends on Metallurgy depends on Gunpowder depends on (Steel and Physics). It's easy to get to Riflemen as a result, which kills the utility of muskets. But if Rifling required Chemistry and Chemistry required Printing Press, then it'd slow that WAY down.
Or a less obvious example: the tech that provides Modern Armor, "Lasers", directly depends on the Combustion tech that provides Tanks. Sure, Lasers also depends on Radar, which depends on Radio and Flight, but if you pick your techs in the right order (Radio and Flight before Combustion) then you could easily have a game where your tanks go obsolete before you even finish building them. But if Radar also requires Combustion, then you're forced to have at least one additional tech between the two units.
For instance, take the Longsword. The problem isn't just that Steel only depends on Metal Casting; it's that Metal Casting also only depends on Iron Working, which only depends on Bronze Working, which only depends on Mining. So you can go from an X=1 tech to a X=5 one without touching anything else. (The same is true for Pottery -> Compass, but there are no military units along that stretch so it's not as abuseable.)
So just make Metal Casting require Construction as well. That'd effectively make Longswords require two additional techs (Masonry and Construction) that you could have skipped.
A similar issue happens a bit later, where Rifling depends on Metallurgy depends on Gunpowder depends on (Steel and Physics). It's easy to get to Riflemen as a result, which kills the utility of muskets. But if Rifling required Chemistry and Chemistry required Printing Press, then it'd slow that WAY down.
Or a less obvious example: the tech that provides Modern Armor, "Lasers", directly depends on the Combustion tech that provides Tanks. Sure, Lasers also depends on Radar, which depends on Radio and Flight, but if you pick your techs in the right order (Radio and Flight before Combustion) then you could easily have a game where your tanks go obsolete before you even finish building them. But if Radar also requires Combustion, then you're forced to have at least one additional tech between the two units.
Spatzimaus
Mad Scientist
As for making eras last longer in general, there are a few things you can do about that. In my opinion the problem isn't that research is too fast in general, it's that the later techs are just too cheap relative to the ever-increasing science output of your empire. The march patch helped with this, but it can go further.
For instance, consider the research buildings:
(base: 1 science per population)
Library: +1 science per 2 population
University: +50% science
Observatory: +50% science, must have a mountain nearby
Public School: +1 science per population
Research Lab: +100% science
So by the time you get to the end of the game, you'll be producing (1 + 0.5 + 1)*(1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.0) = 7.5 science per population for cities that have observatories. Without that it's 6.25, but any other +50% (like the National College) gets you back to 7.5 again.
There are a few other sources of beakers: the Academy, Scientist specialists, trading posts with the right policy. And most of the Rationalism tree is about boosting science. But the dominant source is still the amount I listed above.
So what can you do about it? In my mod, I did this:
Library: +1 science per THREE population, and +1 culture
University: +30% science, +1 culture
Observatory: +20% science, +3 culture, still needs a mountain
Public School: +40% science, +1 culture
Research Lab: +50% science, +10% gold
Medical Lab: +10% science, and the food storage bit was dropped to 20%.
Finally, the Secularism policy was reduced from "+2 science per specialist" to +1.
Now, instead of 7.5 beakers per population, you peak at 3.33. As a result, your research speed in the late game is halved, with earlier eras seeing a bit less of a proportional decrease.
There's a secondary problem, where some buildings and units are just too expensive. I solved that by tweaking military buildings and such. For instance, in my own mod, instead of +15 XP for land units, the Armory now gives +10% to unit production and +10 XP for land units. Similar change for the Military Academy. But the underlying research rates were the main issue.
For instance, consider the research buildings:
(base: 1 science per population)
Library: +1 science per 2 population
University: +50% science
Observatory: +50% science, must have a mountain nearby
Public School: +1 science per population
Research Lab: +100% science
So by the time you get to the end of the game, you'll be producing (1 + 0.5 + 1)*(1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.0) = 7.5 science per population for cities that have observatories. Without that it's 6.25, but any other +50% (like the National College) gets you back to 7.5 again.
There are a few other sources of beakers: the Academy, Scientist specialists, trading posts with the right policy. And most of the Rationalism tree is about boosting science. But the dominant source is still the amount I listed above.
So what can you do about it? In my mod, I did this:
Library: +1 science per THREE population, and +1 culture
University: +30% science, +1 culture
Observatory: +20% science, +3 culture, still needs a mountain
Public School: +40% science, +1 culture
Research Lab: +50% science, +10% gold
Medical Lab: +10% science, and the food storage bit was dropped to 20%.
Finally, the Secularism policy was reduced from "+2 science per specialist" to +1.
Now, instead of 7.5 beakers per population, you peak at 3.33. As a result, your research speed in the late game is halved, with earlier eras seeing a bit less of a proportional decrease.
There's a secondary problem, where some buildings and units are just too expensive. I solved that by tweaking military buildings and such. For instance, in my own mod, instead of +15 XP for land units, the Armory now gives +10% to unit production and +10 XP for land units. Similar change for the Military Academy. But the underlying research rates were the main issue.
How about a combination of a steeper increase in tech cost for each era, and a bonus, say maybe 10% science, if you finished one era before entering a new one?
That way you would not be restricted in gameplay but would have a motivation to finish one era first, and thereby making the period(s) last longer.
Or there could be a penalty, say -10% science or production, if you enter one era without having finished the one before.
These bonuses/penalties would be cumulative through the tech tree.
Would this be something that we are able to put in a mod, in Civ V´s current state?
Maybe it will not sit well with the AI.
My goal is to make it much more costly to beeline through the eras, without making it totally impossible though for gameplay reasons.
(Sorry for my english, but I'm not a native speaker)
That way you would not be restricted in gameplay but would have a motivation to finish one era first, and thereby making the period(s) last longer.
Or there could be a penalty, say -10% science or production, if you enter one era without having finished the one before.
These bonuses/penalties would be cumulative through the tech tree.
Would this be something that we are able to put in a mod, in Civ V´s current state?
Maybe it will not sit well with the AI.
My goal is to make it much more costly to beeline through the eras, without making it totally impossible though for gameplay reasons.
(Sorry for my english, but I'm not a native speaker)
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