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[Uselessinfo]

It had been concieved before, but when the idea of Leader-Specific UU's dawned on me, I couldn't help but write a thread about it.

Ok, this is a crackpot idea, but I'm asking for your opinion.

Historically speaking, some civilizations have had many millitary units that have become synonomous with that nation. Case in point: Sure, the American UU in Civ4 is the Navy Seal, but what comes to mind when you hear the word "Minuteman"? Most would say the American Revolution (sorry if I sound Uber-patriotic). However, in the Civ games each nation can only have one UU. The truth is that, sometimes, millitary units from the same nation's past lose out to other units dispite the fact that they are just as famous (or infamous) as the favored unit. This is similar to a different problem that was solved with Civ 4.

Just like millitary units, many nations have several past leaders that are historically remarkable. Case in point: Queen Elizabeth I is widely considered one of the Great Britian's most successful monarch's, but Winston Churchill is also famous for his leadership during WWII. This problem was solved in Civ 4, where multiple leaders were made available for single civilizations. So, in order to solve the UU problem I propose a similar fix.

My idea: If a Civ has two or more leaders to play as, then a different UU could be tied to that leader based on Personality traits, time period they reigned, and (if necessary) what kind of unit that leader preffered. Here are my examples.

--Nation--|---Leader\UU Combo 1---|----Leader\UU Combo 2----
AMERICA | Washington- Minuteman | Roosevelt- Navy SEAL (close enough)
GERMANY| Otto von Bismark- Panzer | Frederick- Hessian
RUSSIA | Czarina Catherine- Cossack | Stalin- KGB

My only problem is that, despite the fact that many nations have multiple UU worthy units, it still might not be enough to constitute a new feature to the game.

Thoughts?

It has been 7 months since then, and now I have finally completed my list of Leader Specific Unique Units. I can honestly say that I'm surprised with how many units I was actually able to get into this list and am looking forward to any suggestions from anyone. First, though, I'd like to make a note.

This list is based on how I would create Civ 5, so there are nations and regular units that aren't in Civ 4 mentioned in this list. This includes:

The Horseman (An ancient cavalry, replaces Civ 4's Horse Archer)
The War Galley (Secondary Medieval ship, not late enough to be a galleass)
The Armsman (Medieval swordsman, because Civ has NEEDED this)
The Assassin (Medieval spy, more combat ready than its modern counterpart.)
The Lancer (New cavalry for Medieval and Renaissance eras, does NOT replace Knight)
The Ballista (Secondary seige-weapon for the Classical era)

There are also other new units I have in mind, but these are the only ones relevant to this list. Speaking of which....

My Leader Specific UU List

America​

Washington- Minuteman(Musketman)
Lincoln- Buffalo Soldier(Cavalry)
Roosevelt- Navy SEAL(Marine)

Aztecs​

Montezuma- Jaguar(Swordsman)

Incas​

Pachacuti- Chasqui(Scout)
Huayna Capac- Quecha(Warrior)

Sioux​

Sitting Bull- Hunkpapa Rider(Chariot. Reason for this is that Native Americans didn't ever really have chariots)

Celts​

Vercingatorix- Gallic Warrior(Swordsman)
Boudica- Carpentom(Chariot)

England​

Elizabeth- Billhook(Pikeman)
Victoria- Redcoat(Rifleman)
Churchill- Spitfire(Fighter)

France​

Louis XIV- Musketeer(Musketman)
Napoleon- Grapeshot Gun(Cannon)
deGaulle- Zouave(Infantry)

Germany​

Charlemage (He was a Germanic King and I need the room for other civs)- Landsknecht(Pikeman)
Frederick- Hessian(Cuirassier)
Bismark- Panzar(Tank)

Greece​

Alexander- Hoplite(Spearman)
Pericles- Same as above

Rome​

Julius Caesar- Legionary(Swordsman)
Augustus Caesar- Same as above

Russia​

Peter- Cossack(Cavalry)
Catherine- Same as above
Stalin- KGB Agent(Replaces Spy)

Spain​

Isabella- Conquistador(Cuirassier)
Phillip II- Ship of the Armada*

Carthage​

Dido- The Sacred Band(Spearman)
Hannibal- Numidian Cavalry(Horseman)

Egypt​

Hatshepsut- War Chariot(Chariot)
Rameses II- Same as above

Zulu​

Shaka- Impi(Spearman)

Arabia​

Abu Bakr- Ansar(Armsman)**
Saladin- Camel Cavalry(Knight)

Babylonia​

Hammurabi- Bowman(Archer)
Nebuchadnezzar II- Same as above

China​

Empress Wu- Chu-Ko-Nu(Crossbowman)
Mao Zedong- Type 63(Modern Armor)

India​

Asoka- Talwar Soldier(Armsman)***
Gandhi- Punjabi Worker(Worker)

Japan​

Tokugawa Ieyasu- Samurai(Armsman)
Tokugawa Yoshimune- Ninja(Assassin)****
Hirohito- Zero(Fighter)

Mogolia​

Ghengis Khan- Keshik(Horseman)
Kublai Khan- Horse Archer(Chariot)

Persia​

Cyrus- Scythed Chariot(Chariot)
Xerxes- Immortal(Spearman)

Gran Columbia​

Simon Bolivar- Llanero(Cavalry)

Mayans​

Pacal II- Holkan(Spearman)

Poland​

Sobieski- Winged Hussar(Lancer)

Ethiopia​

Zara Yaqob- Oromo Soldier(Musketman)

Korea​

Wang Kon- Hwacha(Ballista)
Sejong- Turtle Ship(War Galley)

Ottomans​

Mehmed- Sipahi(Knight)
Suleiman- Janissary(Musketman)

Sumer​

Gilgamesh- Enkidu Warrior(Warrior)
Sargon- Vulture(Axeman)

Vietnam​

Trung Sisters(Two LH's in one window's gonna be a little difficult)- Dragon(Swordsman)
Ho Chi Mihn- Viet Cong(Marine)*****

Iroquois​

Hiawatha- Mowhawk Warrior(Axeman)

Byzantium​

Justinian I- Cataphract(Knight)
Theodora- Dromon(War Galley)

Netherlands​

William of Orange- East Indiaman(Galley)

Portugal​

Henrique- Carrack(Caravel)
Sebastiao de Melo- Same as above******

Vikings​

Ragnar- Berserker(Maceman)
Canute- Longship(Caravel)

Mali​

Mansa Musa- Sofa(Archer)

Israel​

David- Maccabee(Axeman)
Solomon- Same as above

Khmer​

Suryavarman II- Ballista Elephant(War Elephant)

* Not sure if I wanted to replace the Galeon or Frigate
** It travels on horseback, but fights on foot, giving it a movement bonus
*** I couldn't think of any thing better, plus the Talwar is a signurature sword of India
**** Not gonna be anything hokey, just a close-to-historical-as-possible Ninja
***** Just curious, but how many people do you think would be offended by this?
****** I really would like to know if there is a Renaissance era unit I could use for his UU

Again, I would appreciate any input on this subject and I hope you like!

 

[CivMcNut]

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is a couple of unique units per civ. They really add to the fun of the military aspect of the game. You've got some good ideas with that stuff. It would be nice to have some of those nations like Russia, America, England, and Germany that have multiple leaders to have each one have it's own unique unit.

 

[Tussilago]

Well, it might be a nice feature. Overall it's such a minor issue, it wouldn't matter much if it was in the game or not. Probably wouldn't hurt anything.

However, some of the specific examples you display leaves one a bit confounded. "Hessians" for Frederick II? That's just so USA centric!

Those Hessian guys were only there because Britain has always been lousy at raising enough ground forces on its own. So they hired some troops from Hessen-Kassel like they had in the Seven Year's War. In fact, I believe there were probably a number of different continentals serving England in the colonies, if I know George III and the British right, Hannoverians and the like.

"Hessians" were no elite force, they were just simple soldiers, and there is no connection to Prussia either.


On second thoughts, there is a risk that finding matches to all the options might make for strained results. I sure like to have German Panzern without having to play the funny looking Bismarck of Sid Meier.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well, it might be a nice feature. Overall it's such a minor issue, it wouldn't matter much if it was in the game or not. Probably wouldn't hurt anything.

However, some of the specific examples you display leaves one a bit confounded. "Hessians" for Frederick II? That's just so USA centric!

Those Hessian guys were only there because Britain has always been lousy at raising enough ground forces on its own. So they hired some troops from Hessen-Kassel like they had in the Seven Year's War. In fact, I believe there were probably a number of different continentals serving England in the colonies, if I know George III and the British right, Hannoverians and the like.

"Hessians" were no elite force, they were just simple soldiers, and there is no connection to Prussia either.


On second thoughts, there is a risk that finding matches to all the options might make for strained results. I sure like to have German Panzern without having to play the funny looking Bismarck of Sid Meier.

Panzer is an odd choice for Bismarks unique unit given when he was in power. I'd suggest Uhlan (introduced into the Prussian army in 1740) and played an important role in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. The idea of having different UUs for different leaders is interesting though.

 

[Rotty]

I'd rather see 2 UUs for every civ than tying them to leaders. The idea of everything distinctive a nation is able to do being dependent on the will of the one guy leading them is... both disquieting and dull. You could never have anything like the now-legendary Boudicca's legions.

 

[Uselessinfo]

Well, it might be a nice feature. Overall it's such a minor issue, it wouldn't matter much if it was in the game or not. Probably wouldn't hurt anything.

However, some of the specific examples you display leaves one a bit confounded. "Hessians" for Frederick II? That's just so USA centric!

Those Hessian guys were only there because Britain has always been lousy at raising enough ground forces on its own. So they hired some troops from Hessen-Kassel like they had in the Seven Year's War. In fact, I believe there were probably a number of different continentals serving England in the colonies, if I know George III and the British right, Hannoverians and the like.

"Hessians" were no elite force, they were just simple soldiers, and there is no connection to Prussia either.


On second thoughts, there is a risk that finding matches to all the options might make for strained results. I sure like to have German Panzern without having to play the funny looking Bismarck of Sid Meier.

Well, I was also considering the Dragoon, but that unit was used in plenty of other civs as well. It was kind of a hard choice for Frederick. If you have a suggestion that better suits him, then don't hesitate to tell me.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

If you created this as a mod, I'd check it out.

 

[obliterate]

Just a couple of suggestions:

- Instead of armsman I think Men-at-Arms woul be better.
- Uhlan would be a better than Panzer as a UU for Bismark.
- Longboat instead of Longship and make it a galley that can go through ocean squares.
- Find a new units for Frederick. Hessians a a no no.

PS I can't believe you called Charlemagne a Germanic leader but I won't ruin the thread. It has some great ideas.

 

[TheDS]

To get a decent distribution of UUs over the course of the game, some sacrifices may have to be made. Panzer for Bismarck is simply one of those.

Look at the game as it is. There are several ancient units that have multiple replacements, because there are multiple ancient civilizations. Maybe Alexander and Pericles both deserve to be in the game, but at least Greece still exists, and could stand to have something a little more modern for one of them. Which one was more forward-thinking? Use that leader as the basis for a more modern unit, like maybe a Greek artillery piece. (I've also thought of a Greek Galley having the power of Greek Fire - while a different unit, it's still ancient, and not good as an example of what I'm propounding.)

OTOH, American countries haven't been around all that long, though they've been through a lot of the tech tree. The US itself has been a center of innovation over the course of nearly 2 centuries, and there are a lot of possible things to draw from. We did a lot of pioneering. The Japanese have taken a lot of American inventions and made them better and cheaper. (Japan has been relevent for over 2 millenia, epecially in recent times. There's a ton of stuff to draw on. OTOH, I never even HEARD of Khmer before Civ; how do you remain fair when comparing Khmer to Japan or the US? It's like apples and oranges and pomegranates.)

Taking a different tack, I would also like to see a truly unique unit - not just a replacement, but something that no one else has. Additionally, I'd like to see a UU based on traits (like I'd also like to see enough beginning techs for each trait to have one as its starting tech). Repeat for UBs.

I know that's a lot to ask, and I don't have much in the way of suggestions, but this thread just got some of the juices flowing.

 

[Sisko]

I like the idea, but it would conflict with a feature in BTS, namely unrestricted leaders. Now, you can combine favorite personalities with UU's and UB's of a different civ. This is impossible if you tie them to leaders instead of civs.

 

[Zenon_pt]

It had been concieved before, but when the idea of Leader-Specific UU's dawned on me, I couldn't help but write a thread about it.

Portugal​

Henrique- Carrack(Caravel)
Sebastiao de Melo - Same as above******
****** I really would like to know if there is a Renaissance era unit I could use for his UU

Again, I would appreciate any input on this subject and I hope you like!

What??? Sebastiao de Melo - the Marquis of Pombal. He was not a Renaissance persone, it's more a industrial era than a Renaissance...
And in that time (18th century) the Caravel was already outdated. You may try an infantry unit than a naval one.

 

[Kao'chai]

Why Empress wu ? Why not Taizong who lived just the same era and was way better

 

[jmarsch]

Byzantium
Justinian I- Cataphract(Knight)
Theodora- Dromon(War Galley)

I would really like to see the Varangian Guard in action, though they'd have a hard time knocking the cataphract or the dromon from the list. Maybe you could add John II Komnenos as a leader? He had a large part in the Komnenian restoration, and after his death the Empire started to irrevocably loose its power.

 

[RedRalph]

KGB under Stalin was called the NKVD, besides i think the T-34 would be a better choice. Best tank in history and specific to Stalins era

 

[Zenon_pt]

Akbar? Why not add him to India list?

 

[lutzj]

Why Empress wu ? Why not Taizong who lived just the same era and was way better

*Cough* Affirmative action *Cough*


Minutemen should replace rifles, if only because of the time period they were used in. Before you object, consider Redcoats, which used muskets for a long time and were still using musket-based tactics after they changed their red coats to khaki.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think if they wanted more units they could have created more civs? Dont enough people play the English and Romans anyway??

I would of given the English an archer or longbowmen. As for the Romans you cant have the same UU. Enough people have complained the Prets are over powered anyway. Seige weapon? Horsemen?

As for the Spanish. Phillip and ships?? Didnt they all sink somewhere outside the English coast?? I think the Spanish were more religious then ship builders. I dont think the ships they built were much better than the next nations ships. Yes im English Perhaps they would be better suited to a uu missionary??

Think Greece maybe Horse. I remember Alexander leading the horse charge when he invaded persia/India.

I am sure there is more but its late.

 

[gopher666]

Viking: I'd rather add the Longboat (which is a trademark, and a good idea for a UU for sure) in place of a galley or trireme, rather than a caravel. Caravels outdate longboats with at least three centuries.

 

[Tussilago]

Well, I was also considering the Dragoon, but that unit was used in plenty of other civs as well. It was kind of a hard choice for Frederick. If you have a suggestion that better suits him, then don't hesitate to tell me.

I'm no expert on the Prussian army, especially not the Prussians of Frederick II's day, which was a whole lot different than the one formed after Napoleon. (Generally speaking, prior to Napoleon, the Prussian army was known as the perfect tin soldier army of cadaver discipline and shady recruitment practices. After Napoleon, it was founded on the basis of romantic German nationalism and an increasingly flexible doctrine of independent initiative. This was the army that Hitler ultimately inherited and what made it so great - Aufträgetaktik, mission specific operations entrusting low echelon commanders with ultimate responsibility, unlike any armed fighting force in the world up till 1945.)

Hmm... back on track. Simply put, the greatness of the Prussian army was not so much tied to a specific unit type as to organizational effectiveness and leadership itself, Frederick II included. Like you already have recognized, choosing a certain unit to resemble it becomes a tough job. Personally, like Amazon Queen, I also thought in terms of the Uhlan as a possible alternative (a form of lancer).

However, I don't really think that's good enough. "Look at the game as it is", as TheDS put it. There is no use thinking national units must be tied to the era in which a specific leader lived, or does anyone suggest that Alexander would still rule the Greeks in the 20th century had he not succumbed to an illness in Persepolis?

No.

Therefore, my suggestion is that German leaders stay with Panzers, both of them. After all, either Frederick or Bismarck is only in the game because Hitler is not allowed to, due to contemporary hate legislation. (It may be that both of those men were infinitely superior as strategists, national leaders and human beings, but as someone said, Hitler is a "significant" character, similar to for example Ghengis Khan or Isabella.)

Also, I like to play Frederick myself (a philosophical leader), and still have access to the Panzers when I need them.

 

[Tussilago]

...besides i think the T-34 would be a better choice. Best tank in history and specific to Stalins era

*Cough* Maybe the best tank in history between approximately July 1941 and something like May 1942 when the first long barrelled Panzer IV's entered action *cough*

There is no end to historians overrating the T-34 tank.

KGB under Stalin was called the NKVD...

And before that it was called the OGPU and after that the MGB, all during Stalin's reign. Maybe simply "Spy" isn't that bad afterall?