Revamp of Religious Spread Mechanis

[Softly]

I think it is fair to say that Firaxis missed the mark on how it implemented its Missionary/Apostle/Inquisitor religious spread system. Missionaries clog up the map and the whole thing basically exists on a plane parallel too, but separate from, the rest of the game. I had an interesting idea for an overhaul of this system that would make pursuing religious victory a lot more strategic and satisfying.

• Remove missionaries and inquisitors. Proportionally increase the cost and power of the apostle unit. (No more religious unit spam).
• Base religious pressure (brp): All cities following a religion will exert 1 (2 for holy city) unit of religious pressure to all other cities within 10 tiles.

Now this is where it gets interesting. All cities with a religion will also exert religious pressure based on the districts present in that city. Assume values are per turn and are multiples of brp defined above.

(a) Harbor: Any trade route originating in this city that passes over water will exert 2*brp (city’s base religious pressure) to the destination city.

(b) Commercial District: Harbor: Any trade route originating in this city that passes over land will exert 2*brp to the destination city.

(c) Industrial: Reduces all other religion’s influence by 2*brp per turn.

(d) Entertainment: Exerts 1*brp to all of the city owner’s other cities.

(e) Theater: City extends its religious pressure two tiles further (12 tiles vrs. 10 tiles).

(f) Campus: Exerts 1*brp to all other cities with a campus district that religion’s owner has vision of.

(g) Encampment: Any unit that falls in combat within the cities borders will increase brp by 3 for that turn.

(h) Holy District: Increases the base religious pressure of the city by 1 (brp = 2, 3 for holy cities.)

Apostle could either instantly exert 100 units of religious pressure or 10 RP + converts 10% of all other religion’s cumulative religious pressure to your own (3 charges. 2nd option is better as it prevents older cities from becoming unconvertable).
Under this system, religious units are more expensive and rare. Making the correct decision on which city(s) to use them on is what will lead you to religious victory. More importantly, this will integrate religious victory with the other game mechanics. Build up lots of harbors/commercial districts and unleash a focused barrage of religious pressure onto a key city. Convert your opponent’s encampment cities before declaring war and watch your religion expand around the fallen martyrs.

Would obviously mean a major overhaul of many wonders, civ/leader traits, city state bonuses and beliefs, but opens up the possibility for many new ones (i.e Phillip could get double the pressure from harbor/commercial districts on trade routes sent to foreign continents. The Hagia Sophia could exert its citiy’s brp*5 to all city states you are Suzerain). Looking for theorycrafting/opinions on this, as I think that if implemented correctly this could be a change for the better. Obviously not married to any of the values or the specific district bonuses. Would love some ideas for a more active (like harbor/comm/encampment) bonuses for the campus and entertainment district, especially ones that would allow your religion to spread to cities far away from your core religious cities. Lastly if anyone with a coding background could let me know if this would make turn times better or worse than the current missionary spam.

 

[Zuizgond]

Looks really interesting and a good way to remove the extremely boring religious war with units! Maybe one suggestion : how about holy districts generating pressure like cities do but from their own location? So that their tile placement also becomes strategic.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Moderator Action: This topic fits better in the "Ideas and suggestions" sub-forum. I've therefore moved it to there.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I just want religious units to have their travel routes automated. Like caravans. Then maybe you could walk through them, too.

Tying effects to districts and getting all fancy with typed bonuses is gimmick circus. And right in line with the design for this game. So, congrats for predicting the mechanics of Expansion 1.

 

[Sostratus]

I like the idea of making apostles the primary religious unit. The AI just goes absolutely bonkers with missionaries and religion spam in general- to the point that I think it holds them back in many cases.
While the different promotions would need to be rebalanced, I think it would be much more satisfying if the religion game was mostly passive spread plus the strategic usage of Apostles.

I would further suggest allowing players to earn apostles through Great Prophet Points, finally giving those some use. After founding a religion, players could earn apostles in their holy city, with an increasing GPP cost based on how many they've earned already. In addition, any city with the requisite level of Holy Site development could purchase an apostle with faith. Sort of making Apostles like mini-great prophets from Civ 5, in terms of how you get them. The power of your passive spread (influenced by trade, city location, and possibly the holy site project boosting it) lays out your general zone of influence, with special apostles letting you make advances faster than normal.

That said, I think there is room for the great person system to incorporate some prophets after all religions have been founded. After all, we have a huge variety to choose from- and they could act as buffed apostles, because they would be competed for globally. Possibly with special retirement type abilities!

For the sake of game balance, players would probably want to have the ability to make inquisitors, at least to have some defence against a larger faith. How powerful they would be, and at what faith cost, would depend on how strong apostles are.

 

[Softly]

Looks really interesting and a good way to remove the extremely boring religious war with units! Maybe one suggestion : how about holy districts generating pressure like cities do but from their own location? So that their tile placement also becomes strategic.

I thought about this as well. Trying to decide if you want to build your holy site next to that mountain range to the east for the extra faith or on your border to the west to exert extra influence on your neighbor is the type of interesting decision you want the game to force players to make. Honestly though I think that Holy Sites doubling the effect of other districts (as is the case in the original post) would be best. Holy Sites are one of the first districts you build in each city when going for religious victory and at that time your borders aren't really big enough to put them more than one or two tiles away from your city center.

I just want religious units to have their travel routes automated. Like caravans. Then maybe you could walk through them, too.

Tying effects to districts and getting all fancy with typed bonuses is gimmick circus. And right in line with the design for this game. So, congrats for predicting the mechanics of Expansion 1.

Honestly I think the game should avoid this. Religious victory right now is already fought on a separate plane from the rest of the game. I think that the biggest benefit of my idea is that it ties religious victory in with the rest of the game mechanics. Don't see it as a "gimmick" but can understand your position.

I like the idea of making apostles the primary religious unit. The AI just goes absolutely bonkers with missionaries and religion spam in general- to the point that I think it holds them back in many cases.
While the different promotions would need to be rebalanced, I think it would be much more satisfying if the religion game was mostly passive spread plus the strategic usage of Apostles.

I would further suggest allowing players to earn apostles through Great Prophet Points, finally giving those some use. After founding a religion, players could earn apostles in their holy city, with an increasing GPP cost based on how many they've earned already. In addition, any city with the requisite level of Holy Site development could purchase an apostle with faith. Sort of making Apostles like mini-great prophets from Civ 5, in terms of how you get them. The power of your passive spread (influenced by trade, city location, and possibly the holy site project boosting it) lays out your general zone of influence, with special apostles letting you make advances faster than normal.

That said, I think there is room for the great person system to incorporate some prophets after all religions have been founded. After all, we have a huge variety to choose from- and they could act as buffed apostles, because they would be competed for globally. Possibly with special retirement type abilities!

For the sake of game balance, players would probably want to have the ability to make inquisitors, at least to have some defense against a larger faith. How powerful they would be, and at what faith cost, would depend on how strong apostles are.

I totally agree, they should make Great Prophets available even after all religions have been founded. Under my proposed system, maybe using a Great Prophet increases the base religious pressure of all cities following your religion by 2 for 10 turns. Maybe lets you declare a holy war (reduced warmonger) against an opponent of a different religion and any city you conquer automatically converts.

I would be fine with keeping some sort of inquisitor mechanic as long as it doesn't bring us back to having the map clogged up with religious units. Perhaps they are expensive units that reduce all other religion's BRP on that city by 1 a turn while they are "fortified" in a holy site (half the industrial districts effect). That plus they reduce the effectiveness of enemy apostles by 25% to make religious defense more active.