Revamping: Espionage and Diplomacy PART 1

[amphreded]

A whole new espionage system is needed.
Currently, you only gain new espionage units through entering a new era, or by completing National Intelligence Agency, or if you're playing as England. Personally, I feel this is too limiting. The following is a huge list of what could be implemented to future Civ games.

Summary:

• Spy and diplomat to be separate units, not switchable unit.
• Acquiring new spy and diplomat is no longer dependent on era, but rather the number of all cities and city-states you have discovered.
• Change so that espionage/diplomacy units are no longer obtained for free, but needed to be hard build from a city - spy with constabulary, diplomat with a department of foreign affairs, and ambassador with ministry of foreign affairs.
• Add ambassador, whom can only be installed in other civilization's capital cities as a "chief diplomat".
• Can stack multiple diplomats or spies into a single cities or city-states.
• Diplomat and ambassadors to have more varied effects.
• Each ambassador and diplomat stationed in another civilization's capital city allows you to trade for one additional world congress proposal (currently having a diplomat in a capital allows you to trade for both proposal).
• Instead of having 2 proposals per world congress, there is more proposals per session.
• Diplomats can be installed in city-states to gain influence.
• Spy can be used in many extra ways, both in foreign cities, city-states, and your own.
• Spy can stay in the cities of civilizations and city-states you are at war with, but with greater risk involved in most cases.
• Spy in another civilization's city can go on different missions: steal technology, steal information, sabotage city's production, create confusion in war time, create cultural propaganda, create religious propaganda, terrorize, or rescue captive units.
• Spy in your own cities can go on different missions: feed false information to enemy spy (for example, give an impression we have a superior army), create extra surveillance that increase chance to kill or capture enemy spy, or do patrols which reduce enemy's spying effectiveness.
• Spy in city-states can go on different missions: rig an election, steal resource, or prevent other civilization's influence.
• Spy cooperation, teaming up spies to complete a mission faster, or to minimize risk.
• Change to spy leveling up system, introducing "half level". Spy now has up to 5 levels. Spy is capable of losing level in certain situations.
• Anti-spying buildings such as constabulary and police station to have more effects. For example, police station allows you to build prison, which holds more captives.
• New system of [Capture and Ransom] where spies, ambassadors, diplomats, civilian units can be taken captive. Spies can get interrogated for information.
• Captured diplomats, ambassadors, spies, and civilians can trigger new negotiation screen where civilizations can use them as ransoms to extort money, technology, votes, amongst others. Allied civilizations can help another out by negotiating for captive release.

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Diplomacy

Department of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Foreign Affairs

• Department of foreign affairs is a new building of the Renaissance era, available after the banking technology has been researched just like the constabulary. The building costs 2 gold maintenance, requires 160 hammers, allows international trade routes originating or coming to the city gains +1 gold, and allows diplomats to be hard built in the city. After the world congress has been founded, department of foreign affairs will also provide +1 local happiness.
• Ministry of foreign affairs is a new national wonder that can only be built in the capital city, available also with banking technology. The building provides free department of foreign affairs in the capital city. It costs 2 gold maintenance, requires 250 hammers, and allows international trade routes originating or coming to the city to gain +1 gold, which stacks with department of foreign affairs to become +2 gold. It allows ambassadors to be hard built. After the world congress has been founded, ministry of foreign affairs will also provide +1 local happiness, and an additional +1 local happiness when the United Nations is founded. It also provides 1 great merchant slot.

Ambassadors

• Ambassadors are special units that can only be hard built in capital city with ministry of foreign affairs, and can only be installed in foreign capital cities of other civilizations that you share an embassy with.
• An ambassador's function is like the current diplomat, with extra flavors and limitations. An ambassador has a low chance of obtaining intrigues, allows one world congress proposal to be traded. Adding an extra diplomat to the city where an ambassador is in will increase the chance of obtaining intrigues as well as allowing one more world congress proposal to be traded.
• An ambassador also exerts 1 tourism per each era starting from the Renaissance to the assigned civilization.
• If you have founded a religion, the ambassador will also exert religion pressure to the foreign capital city. The strength of the ambassador's religion pressure depends on the diplomatic relationships between the two empires. A higher diplomatic point means that the ambassador can exert more religion pressure to the city per turn. An ambassador also gives +1 happiness to both empire, as well as allowing you to view the existing buildings of the other civilization's capital city, but do not allow you to know what the city is currently building.
• The total number of ambassadors you can have in the game is the total number of other civilizations you have met in the game. Each foreign capital city can only have one of your civilization's ambassador in it.
• There's no limitation to when you can build an ambassador. There's no need to advance an era to gain a extra slot for an ambassador. As soon as you have completed the ministry of foreign affairs, ambassadors can be hard built until reaching the limits.
• Once you deploy them into a foreign capital city, they cannot be reassigned to another foreign capital city until a world congress session has passed. If you have an ambassador in each other civilizations' capital city, there is no need to switch around since every ambassador is the same.
• Ambassadors do not have levels.
• If the civilization that you have an ambassador in their capital city has declared on you, the ambassador will try to escape the city. While trying to escape, there is a chance of getting captured. An escaped ambassador can be reassigned to another peaceful civilization's capital city, or must be stationed in your own capital city if all other capital cities already have your ambassadors installed.
• If the city your ambassador is deployed in has been attacked by another civilization, the ambassador will automatically try to escape. The ambassador also has a chance of getting instantly killed if the city is bombarded by ranged units such as cannons or bombers. If the invading civilization is hostile against you or dislikes you, the ambassador can potentially be taken for ransom. If the invading civilization is peaceful with you or likes you, and if that civilization finds the ambassador before he can escape, the ambassador can be returned to you peacefully - though the AI will count this as "you owe me" and expects you to return the favor.
• If the ambassador returns safely to your empire, he can be reassigned to the same civilization, in their new capital city.
• If the captured city is the civilization's last city, and all other civilizations' capital cities already have your ambassadors in them, the ambassador will turn into a diplomat. An ambassador who has turned into a diplomat cannot turn back into an ambassador. If you also have reached your diplomat limits, the ambassador will be permanently lost. In case someone liberates the city of a defeated civilization, you will need to hard build a new ambassador again.
• When escaping a city from war or when another civilization is capturing the city your ambassador is in, if you have a spy in the same city, the chance of ambassador's escape is increased. The more spies you have in the city, the higher their levels are, the better chance for your ambassador to make a safe escape.

Diplomats in Other Civilizations

• Diplomats can be hard built from a city with a department of foreign affairs. A diplomat can be installed in any city of any foreign civilization's that you have found, as well as city-states. They, however, can only be installed in another major civilization that already has your civilization's ambassador.
• They do not have levels.
• Having an ambassador in a foreign capital city only allows you to gain one trade of world congress proposal. If you install a diplomat in a foreign capital city, you gain an additional congress proposal vote trade, quicker access to intrigues, as well as enhanced tourism and religion pressure.
• If you install a diplomat in a non-capital city, you will not gain the additional congress proposal vote trade, but will be able to perk into the city's existing buildings, while exerting half the religion and tourism pressure.
• If your ambassador has moved away from a civilization your diplomats are installed in, your diplomats will return home the following turn to be reassigned.
• You can have more than 1 diplomat in 1 city which will increase the overall effects. Second diplomat will enhance effect by 50%, third diplomat by 33%, fourth by 15%, and so on. This creates scenarios where you have to make a decision: is it worth employing more than one diplomat in one city and faced with reduced efficiency, or is it better to spread diplomats over multiple cities but risked not gaining enough influence in any of them.
• Diplomats can be captured or killed like ambassadors. For more information, read the ambassador section.

Diplomats in City-States

• Installing diplomats in city-states will make elections harder to rigged. Diplomats will also exert religion pressure to the city-state, reduce the rate of influence decay, and most importantly, increase city-states influence by 1 per turn.
• You can stack multiple diplomats in city-states; but like stacking diplomats in another civilization's cities, each subsequent diplomat's effectiveness would be reduced.
• Certain special policies or UAs can alter the effectiveness of deploying diplomats in city-states. For example, patronage can make influence increases by 2 per turn instead, piety can double the religion pressure exerted by diplomats, commerce allows +1 extra gold with trade routes to and from the city-state, honor allows better pledge to protect if a diplomat is installed, etc.
• Diplomats in city-states can be captured or killed like ambassadors. For more information, read the ambassador section.

World Congress: More Proposals

• Each session of world congress to have more proposals, giving reason to stack multiple diplomats in a single capital considering that only one ambassador/diplomat grants only one trade for one proposal.

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Espionage

Constabulary Change

• Constabulary now allows spies to be hard built. Costs more at 2 gold maintenance but production cost retains at 160 hammers. Constabulary reduces every type of enemy spy efficiency by 15%, as well as reduces religion and tourism pressure from each foreign diplomat residing inside the city by 15%. Constabulary can hold up to one captive. After your civilization has adopted an ideology, constabulary also counters against 1 local unhappiness created by public opinion.

Police Station Change

• Police station costs more at 2 gold maintenance but production cost retains at 300 hammers. Police station reduces every type of enemy spy efficiency by 15%, as well as allowing civil security units to be stationed in your city (see below: Spy in Your Cities). Police station grants 2 additional captive slots, and increase interrogation effective by 25% (see below: Capture and Ransom). Police station is also a requirement to build prison.

National Intelligence Agency Change

• Instead of giving an extra spy, National Intelligence Agency provides 15% boosts to all of your spies' effectiveness. It still reduces enemy spy's effectiveness by 15%.

Prison

• New building that's available after replaceable parts has been researched. Costs 2 gold maintenance and 400 hammers. Prison gives -10% penalty to each of enemy's Rescue Agent in the city. Prison grants 4 additional captive slots in the city.

Alcatraz Island

• World wonder available after replaceable parts has been researched. +1 Great Engineer Point. Contains 2 engineer slots. -7 unhappiness from public opinion. Each captive in Alcatraz Island does not cost gold per turn. Grants 4 additional captive slots in the city it is built in. Requires autocracy. The city must have a solitary hex of land off the coast.

Spies: Preface

• Spies can be hard built from any city with a constabulary. Spy can still be installed in any cities, whether your own, foreign, or city-states. Whenever a spy is planted in a city, you can choose various roles to suit your need.
• Spied now have more varied missions, with differing risks and level promotions.
• Spies can now work in team when assigned the same mission.
• Spies within the same city as other diplomats and ambassador can help other escape more successfully when war is escalated. Certain spy types are more skilled in helping diplomats, ambassadors and other spies escape to safety.
• You can still have your spies inside cities or city-states you are at war, but they are likelier to get found out. If they are found out, however, the diplomacy hit will not be as bad as when you are at peace with them.
• Once found by the other civilization, a spy can be captured, killed, or escaped.
• Captured spies: I will explain this in later section [Capture and Ransom] since it also involves ambassadors, diplomats, and other civilian units.
• Killed spies: a killed spy is permanently lost. He can give away your identity and what information has been stolen by you before he gets killed. The higher level the spy has, the likelier the other civilization will not find out what nationality he is. On the contrary, the level of other civilization's spies stationed in the city and bonuses from buildings such as constabulary and police office will increase the success of the other civilization finding out your spy's identity and mission's motif.
• Escaped spies: when your spy gets found out, he has a chance to escape successfully with or without giving away your identity, chance depending on his skill level as well as the other civilization's counterintelligence spy level and building bonuses. An escaped spy can be reused, but with greater risk if you install him again in the same civilization he was found out.

Spy Levels and Injury

• Spy starts at level 1 and can go up to level 5.
• Introducing "half level". A spy starts at Level 1, and can be Level 1.5, Level 2, Level 2.5, Level 3, and so on. I've introduced this system so that a spy completing smaller tasks will also gain some progress.
• The higher level the spy has, the more effectiveness he is in his task, the less risk there is of him getting found out, killed, or caught. Higher level spies can also be more resilient when captured, not giving away your identity or information.
• A spy can also lose levels. A spy loss level points by -0.1 for every turn he's not doing a mission such as moving to a new location, tending an injury, or escaping a city. When being held captive, the spy loses level at a rate of -0.3 per turn (see below under Capture and Ransom section).
• Escaped spies can be potentially injured instead of getting killed or captured. When a spy is injured, you have to wait a few turns before reassigning him. High level spies heal faster.
• Though the spy's level cap is 5, he can go higher. The level point can go up to 10.0, but the spy's effectiveness remains at level 5 no matter how many points he has. A spy with higher than 5.0 level points will gain the benefit of being held captive for a long time.

Spy in Another Civilization's City: Options

• [1] Steal technology (takes long time, medium risk of getting found, medium diplomacy hit if found out, gains 1.5 level if successful)
• [2] Steal Information, finding out intrigues, able to view what the city is building and what existing buildings are already in the city. Steal Information gets sped up if there's any of your diplomats in the same city (medium time, low risk of getting found, low diplomacy hit if found out, gains 0.5 level for each successful intrigue). This type of spy automatically gives bonus to diplomats and ambassadors escaping the city safely when war triggers, and automatically gives bonus to other spies trying to escape the city for whatever reasons.
• [3] Sabotage Production, only available after entering industrial era, lowering the city's production and food outputs (effects continually get stronger each turn the spy is not found out, medium risk of getting found, high diplomacy hit if found out, gains 0.5 level for not getting found out every 10 successive turns).
• [4] Confusion Agent, creates military disorder, lowers the combat effectiveness of the spied civilization's military units within 3 hexes of the city your Confusion Agent is in. Useful even if you're not at war against this civilization - if the civilization is in the lead to obtain a victory, you can bribe other civilizations to DoW and install an agent this way (effects continually get stronger each turn the spy is not found out, high risk of getting found, high diplomacy hit if found out, gains half a level for not getting found out every 5 successive turns)
• [5] Terrorist, the spy attempts to create chaos that affects the city in several negative ways. He can kill off population, in which the effect is buffed with biology and dynamite technology (i.e. can kill more than 1 population off at once), and at times can temporarily disconnect roads or rails connections or shut down buildings such as airports and hotels (every turn there is a low chance of terrorism success, very high risk of getting found, high diplomacy hit if found out to all civilizations, gains a 1.5 level each time terrorism is successful).
• [6] False Prophet, interferes with the city's religion, pushing your religion influence to the city, reducing influence of other religions in the city, as well as lessens religions pressure except yours exerted from this city (effects continually gets stronger each turn the spy is not found out, risk of getting found out and the severity of diplomacy hit depend on the civilization's degree of religious commitment, gains 0.5 level for not getting found out every 10 successive turns). An inquisitor can reduce false prophet's effectiveness and increase his risk of getting found out.
• [7] Cultural Propaganda, the spy will uses media to spread your tourism while attempts to hampers the city owner's tourism influence towards other civilizations. Gains more effectiveness with printing press, radio and internet (effects continually get stronger each turn the spy is not found out, low risk of getting killed, low risk of getting found out, gains 0.5 level for not getting found out every 20 successive turns)
• [8] Rescue Agent, the spy will try to get captive diplomats, ambassadors, civilian units, and other spies out of the city (takes longer time for each captive person, the riskiness of getting found out depends on the number of people you are trying to rescue as well as their importance, the severity of diplomacy hit depends on whether the captives are being held because of your aggression or the other civilization's aggression, gains 1.0 level for each captive rescued this way). If you are at war against the civilization, military pressure will affect the performance of the Rescue Agent. For example, you are trying to rescue your units in York, your own military presence plus military presence from other civilizations and city-state that are also at war against England will improve the chance of rescue success; the enemy is too distracted with war to care much about captive civilians. Furthermore, you can select who to rescue for each rescue mission. If there are 5 captives in the city, you might want to consider attempt to break only one out since you don't have many spare spies and/or your spy isn't high enough in level, thus risky. You can also rescue captives that do not belong to your civilization, whether another civilization or city-states. When you rescue captives not native to your civilization, you can return them to gain diplomatic influence, return them to gain city-state influence, negotiate with another civilization for exchange (I will return your diplomat if you give me your citrus), or use them as your own (such as workers, great general, etc.)

Spy in Your City: Options

• [1] Counterintelligence, your Counterintelligence spy will create false information to other enemy spies in the city. Enemy's Steal Technology spy will fail to gain free technology from you, enemy's Steal Information spy will get false intrigue (which you can choose, such as you have a strong army when you actually don't). Counterintelligence can also thwart enemy's Confusion Agent and Rescue Agent spies. Anytime Counterintelligence spy successfully interacts with enemy's spy, he gains 0.5 level. The downside is that he cannot capture or kill other spies, only preventing them for achieving their missions. Counterintelligence spy has no effect against Sabotage Production, Terrorist, False Prophet, and Cultural Propaganda spies.
• [2] Surveillance, surveys your own city for potential enemy spies of all kind to either kill or capture them (though they can still be successfully escaped). A surveillance spy gains 0.5 level for finding out enemy spy and forces the spy to escape, 1.0 for killing them, and 1.5 level for capturing enemy spy. Sometimes the enemy can escape, get killed or captured without revealing its identity. The higher the level surveillance spy has, the likelier he is to find out which civilization the enemy spy is from. Surveillance's effectiveness increases as computer has been researched.
• [3] Civil Security, reduces the effectiveness of enemy's Sabotage Production, Confusion Agent, Terrorist, Cultural Propaganda, and Rescue Agent spies, as well as able to find them out and capture them. Only cities with police station can have this kind of anti-spy unit. Civil Security unit has no effect against Steal Technology, Steal Information and False Prophet spies. Like surveillance spy, a civil security spy gains 0.5 level for finding out enemy spy and forces the spy to escape, 1.0 for killing them, and 1.5 level for capturing enemy spy. The higher the level civil security spy has, the likelier he is to find out which civilization the enemy spy is from.

Spy in City-States: Options

• [1]Rig an Election, spy attempts to rig election, reducing other civilizations' influence as well as increasing your own (takes medium time, medium risk of getting found out by other civilization that is the current ally of the city-state, medium diplomacy hit if found out, gains 1.0 level for each successful rig).
• [1]Steal Resource, only useful if you are not an ally with the city state. The spy will attempt to steal a resource of that city-state. No diplomacy hit if the city-state currently has no ally, but if you get found out by the city-state itself your spy could get killed, captured (or escaped) and negative influence will be imposed upon (takes short time, medium risk of getting found out, low diplomacy hit if found hit by the city-state's ally, gains 0.5 level for better successful, steals the resource for 30 turns).
• [3]Prevent Foreign Influence, attempts to thwart other civilization's election rigging and steal resource. Reduces foreign diplomats' influence by 15%, 25% if you are the current ally of the city-state. Reduces foreign religion pressure to this city-state (effectiveness gets strong each turn, medium risk of getting found out by other civilization that is the current ally of city-state, small diplomacy hit if found out, gains 0.5 for each prevention of election rigging and steal resource).

Spy Teams

• You can stack more than one spy on a spy mission.
• Additional spy added to a mission can have three differing tasks: tag team, support, or scout.
• Tag team spy basically adds effectiveness to the mission. If the first spy is level 3 and second spy is level 2, then the mission is carried out as if a spy of level 5 is engaging it.
• Support spy adds some effectiveness to the mission, but is more worried surroundings. A support spy finds way to reduce the effectiveness of city's anti-espionage bonuses from buildings such as constabulary or police station, as well as reducing the effective of anti-espionage units in the city.
• Scout spy adds some effectiveness to the mission, but is more worried about safe escape routes. A spy mission with a scout can lead to a safer escape in case the mission fails. In case any of the spies in the team get found out, they are more likely to escape without getting killed or captured, and less likely to give away your identity.
• When a mission fails, some, none, or all of your spies in the team can be escaped, killed, or captured, with or without giving out your identity.
• When a mission is completed, level points is awarded evenly among all spies, taking their current levels into account (i.e. highest ranking spy will receive the most points, while lower ranking spies receive less level points).

see Part 2 for more

 

[searcheagle]

Wow, you wrote a book and to be honest, it's too much for me to read. Smaller posts get more hits! and more responses!

A whole new espionage system is needed.
Currently, you only gain new espionage units through entering a new era, or by completing National Intelligence Agency, or if you're playing as England. Personally, I feel this is too limiting. The following is a huge list of what could be implemented to future Civ games.

Espionage should be related to things you can control in the game. Not how far along the tech tree you are!

Summary:

• Spy and diplomat to be separate units, not switchable unit.[/quote]
  
  You should get all of the information that you get from diplomats from Embassies. Because at this point in time, I don't see the point of embassies.
  
  This thought appeared in my mind too. When I converted a spy to a diplomat and thought about what a country would think of this IRL.
  
  

  [*]Acquiring new spy and diplomat is no longer dependent on era, but rather the number of all cities and city-states you have discovered.

  
  Spies should be earned after you earned a certain number of espionage points. I don't want to see a hard cap on the number of spies you can have but should be based on the number of spy related activities you've done (techs stolen, spies defeated, turns based in a city, etc)
  
  

  [*]Change so that espionage/diplomacy units are no longer obtained for free, but needed to be hard build from a city - spy with constabulary, diplomat with a department of foreign affairs, and ambassador with ministry of foreign affairs.

  
  I think that is better done with espionage points.
  
  

  [*]Add ambassador, whom can only be installed in other civilization's capital cities as a "chief diplomat".
  [*]Can stack multiple diplomats or spies into a single cities or city-states.
  [*]Diplomat and ambassadors to have more varied effects.

  Why?
  
  

  [*]Each ambassador and diplomat stationed in another civilization's capital city allows you to trade for one additional world congress proposal (currently having a diplomat in a capital allows you to trade for both proposal).

  Diplomats should be allowed to lobby for proposals but that shouldn't change how many proposals are out there.
  
  

  [*]Instead of having 2 proposals per world congress, there is more proposals per session.

  How many things will there be to vote on? for or against?
  
  

  [*]Diplomats can be installed in city-states to gain influence.

  what type of influence? They can already overthrow allies.
  
  

  [*]Spy can be used in many extra ways, both in foreign cities, city-states, and your own.

  Specifically?
  
  

  [*]Spy can stay in the cities of civilizations and city-states you are at war with, but with greater risk involved in most cases.

  
  Spies already can. Diplomats can't.
  
  

  [*]Spy in another civilization's city can go on different missions: steal technology, steal information, sabotage city's production, create confusion in war time, create cultural propaganda, create religious propaganda, terrorize, or rescue captive units.

  
  Yessssss! What is Cultural propaganda?
  
  

  [*]Spy in your own cities can go on different missions: feed false information to enemy spy (for example, give an impression we have a superior army), create extra surveillance that increase chance to kill or capture enemy spy, or do patrols which reduce enemy's spying effectiveness.

  
  I do want information to be available. Like sizes of their military, military in or around a city, etc
  
  

  [*]Spy in city-states can go on different missions: rig an election, steal resource, or prevent other civilization's influence.

  How would spies steal a resource? everything else, yes.
  
  

  [*]Spy cooperation, teaming up spies to complete a mission faster, or to minimize risk.

  
  In order to accomplish this, you need to create multi-country alliances, aka NATO, Warsaw Pact.
  
  

  [*]Anti-spying buildings such as constabulary and police station to have more effects. For example, police station allows you to build prison, which holds more captives.

  
  That is adding too much more depth than a game should have.
  
  

  [*]New system of [Capture and Ransom] where spies, ambassadors, diplomats, civilian units can be taken captive. Spies can get interrogated for information.
  [*]Captured diplomats, ambassadors, spies, and civilians can trigger new negotiation screen where civilizations can use them as ransoms to extort money, technology, votes, amongst others. Allied civilizations can help another out by negotiating for captive release.

Hmmm... I don't think that is too "small potatoes" for a game like this.

 

[plastiqe]

Espionage is pretty good in Civ IV. You can build Spies at Alphabet and run Spy missions with them which are able to do many things and influenced by many factors. I personally think that for a future Civ game, Civ IV has a lot better systems than Civ V does to build on, but that's me.

You've put a lot of thought and effort into this which is nice to see. I find it a little difficult to relate to all the changes you propose since I'm not a Civ V player tho so I won't give any specific feedback.

Just a tip but I think a paragraph or two summing up each section, followed by examples of how it would work is easier to read for anyone. Eg. Spies should work like _____ because _______. Here's a list of new Spy abilities:
*
*
*
etc.
Anyways, that's just how I'd do it. : )

 

[amphreded]

Hey guys thanks for the feedback. Yes, I should've had condensed the information better, it was over 30,000 total (and more than 2 hours to write and re-write!)

@ plastiqe
I haven't played Civ IV so I'm just basing things off Brave New World. Personally I feel like espionage/diplomacy can be explored more into by the developers. There's a beauty with how simple the system is now, but it isn't quite realistic to not be able to install spies or diplomats in several cities, and long as you have the resources for them.
I'll give a thought on how to present my ideas better. I'd figure most people would be overwhelmed by the mass of text.

@searcheagle, I'll respond by quoting you in bold

Regarding spy and diplomat being switchable unit: This thought appeared in my mind too. When I converted a spy to a diplomat and thought about what a country would think of this IRL.

Yes, that's one of the main reasons why spy and diplomat shouldn't be interchangeable.

Spies should be earned after you earned a certain number of espionage points. I don't want to see a hard cap on the number of spies you can have but should be based on the number of spy related activities you've done (techs stolen, spies defeated, turns based in a city, etc)

Earning more spies and diplomats through espionage point is a great idea. You suggested that espionage point goes up with spy activities, but I think that perhaps espionage point could work like great person point. Your constabulary and National Intelligence Agency can have spy specialist slots. The main reason why I wanted to change how we are currently earning spy is because it's completely disproportional to the map size, number of civilizations, etc. You can play a map with 20 other civs but only have less than 6 spies?? Seems off to me.
My idea for earning spy/diplomat is based off on the number of cities and city-states you have found, and that percentage gets scaled for each advancing era. For example, in Renaissance era, you can have up to 15% of total number of cities you've found other than your own. When you've reached Industrial, 20% instead, and so on. For me, this would reflect espionage and diplomacy realistically since you should be able to have more spies and diplomats as there are more cities in the world.


Regarding spy and diplomat in war time: Spies already can (stay in the city of civ you are at war with). Diplomats can't.

You're right! For some reason I thought the spy will automatically escape. Anyhow, spies in cities you are at war with should have greater risk of getting caught, but can provide you with more options like creating confusing in military order, giving combat penalty to the city's army and such. Another idea is that instead of automatically escaping the city, your diplomats can be caught for ransom. If you've installed a spy in the same city, the chance of diplomats escaping is higher. If your diplomats (or spies) get caught, the civ that holds your units captive can ask for ransom in exchange to return your diplomats (or spies) safely. They can ask you for a free technology, artifacts, money, resources, amongst others. If you cannot afford to give them what they want, your diplomats can get killed, resulting in unhappiness in your empire.

Regarding spy missions: Yessssss! What is Cultural propaganda?

Cultural Propaganda Mission: the spy will uses media to spread your tourism while attempts to hampers the city owner's tourism influence towards other civilizations. Gains more effectiveness with printing press, radio and internet. Each turn there's a chance the spy will get found out by the other civ, but if the spy successfully spreads cultural propaganda for successive turns, he will gain a level. You can read more in details under Spy in Another Civilization's City: Options written in the first post

Regarding stalling spy in city-state: How would spies steal a resource? everything else, yes.

If you are not an ally of a city-state, but want to obtain a resource that city-state owns, instead of trying to ways to increase your influence until you are allied with him or take over the city-state, you should be able to use your spy to steal resource instead. Right now we can only rig election, but sometimes rigging election is not doable since another civ has also installed their spy in them, and have 200+ more influence than you. So giving a spy a mission to steal resource would make them more useful in such scenario.

Regarding teaming up of spies: In order to accomplish this, you need to create multi-country alliances, aka NATO, Warsaw Pact.

That's a good idea as well. Perhaps you can ask other civs to provide you with their extra spy. Missions like steal technology will grant free technology to both players like completed, etc. This will make espionage more diplomatic as well. Now you can earn diplomatic points with another civ through fighting a common foe, why not earning diplomatic points spying on a common foe as well.

 

[plastiqe]

The thing with espionage/spies in any Civ game is that it's another layer of micro. You've already got the world, the cities, the units and then invisible-non combat units are another thing to manage. Best system would be something that is easy to control but difficult to master. You have A LOT of content here so I dunno if there is room for all that in a standard game of Civ that lasts 6000 years through all the eras.

I think a scenario or mod that delved really deep into diplomacy and espionage would be pretty cool tho.

 

[amphreded]

My ideas definitely would drag civ sessions longer (which is already long as it is). Perhaps an expansion, or scenario/mod like you said, focusing on espionage and diplomacy would be better. G&K introduced religion and I really like how it is in BNW - it has depth, but not overwhelmingly difficult to manage. Hopefully in the future the developers do the same for espionage/diplomacy. I would love to see spies and diplomats playing a larger role.

 

[plastiqe]

For them to have a larger role imagine if the expansion pack for Civ VI is called Overthrow and it's based on a new revolution mechanic whereby empires can be split apart when they are too large/corrupt/different religions/etc. I'm thinking it would be better as less active missions where you micro a unit and more like a build your own story event system as you play.

Spies would still have their place cause they could do a destabilization mission that could speed the revolution or coop along in your enemies territory. Or like a civil war breaks out in a neighbouring Civ and you could choose to do a mission to support the rebels. Diplomats could be the counter to the offensive missions done by spies.