[GS] Rework challenge: France

acluewithout

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I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how France could (or should) be reworked?

Bonus points for making the least changes. No changing leaders. Replacing UUs or UBs entirely will be frowned on. Requiring game wide mechanics to be changed is okay, but try not to go nuts.

Thing is, I kinda like France as they. But I don't think that view is widely shared. So, thought I ask the brains trust for some suggestions.

Personally, I'd leave the UA and LA alone. I'd buff the Cheteau along the same lines as how Georgia's Tsike got buffed, and give Cheteaus an extra +2 Gold and +1 Culture (and tourism) during Golden Ages.

I've no idea how to fix their UU. It comes too late to be useful for conquest, and I'm not sure France needs a defensive unit along those lines.

Thoughts?
 
buff the Chateau like you say, and MAYBE make the Garde Imperiale replace the Musketman (Redcoat too, while we're at it) and adjust CS accordingly so you get more utility out of it (but really, I don't even care about that - just buff the Chateau). That would be about all I would change. I like Catherine/France the way she is otherwise. Really, the Garde is a great unit and though its a bit out of the way, you really only need a few of them to supplement your army.
 
Design Vision
What do we want france to be? Well, based on the leaders in game, we have medieval/chivalrous france, and the other current abilities are directed toward the popular version of modern france that is essentially, "Paris, city of love: the civ."
Hmm. Tough to work with the fixed assets but we can try.
What would I do?
In this proposal, I'm going to try to meld "medieval/renaissance romantic france" with "wonder based tourism."

LEADER ABILITY
LUAs: unchanged. The hand of Sostratus is surgically precise

CIV ABILITY

Current Civ UA: Grand Tour
+20% Production towards Medieval, Renaissance, and Industrial Wonders.
Double Tourism from Wonders of any era.

Proposed Civ UA: Grand Tour
+30% Production towards Wonders if the City already has a Wonder.
+20% Tourism for each Wonder in a City.

Rationale:
The biggest problem with French wonder spam is that the bonus only applies to a subset of wonders, is small and comes late. Further, unlike Civ5, tourism yield from wonders is tiny.
To keep the quintessential theme of France the wonderful tourist haven, I will instead allow a more powerful bonus contingent on the city having any wonder already. This is to encourage and enable actual wonder spam while keeping a challenge to actually get wonders in the first place. We don't want to make China 2.0. The tourism component has been replaced with a scaling bonus that applies to all tourism in a city, and encourages making a real life Pairs chock full of wonders, museums, tourist attraction, etc.

UNIQUE UNIT

Current: Garde Imperiale
65str, 2 move, +10str on the home continent. Cost 340.

Proposed: Musketeer
55str, 3 move, +5str on home continent. Cost 240, 20 niter.

Rationale:
Gardes Imperiale come late and cannot be upgraded into. This is not itself an issue. However, they do not synergize with the leaders' abilities which really come into force in the mid game. The GI is a clear dichotomy with the redcoat, highlighting the rivalry of France and England. However, with the shared Leader of Eleanor, i feel this is unnecessary tension-stoking and in the spirit of friendship propose swapping to an earlier UU. While changing the UU is not necessary, and would require some actual mod work, it would fit well. The idea is to have a dashing troupe of lads worthy of being written about: fast muskets that pack a punch defending La France. This is to help give France a more cohesive power spike and keep the abilities from being all over the place chronologically. It also congeals the civ identity as a mid-late power.

UNIQUE INFRASTRUCTURE

Current: Chateau
+2 culture
+1 culture per adjacent Wonder
+1 gold per adjacent Luxury Resource
+1 appeal
Tourism at Flight.
May only be built along rivers.

Proposed: Chateau
+2 culture
+2 gold if adjacent to a luxury resource
+1 appeal
+1 culture to adjacent breathtaking (4+ appeal) tiles. Stacks with multiple chateaux.
Tourism at Flight (applies to the culture spread around it!)
May not be next to another Chateau. May not be built in Tundra, Snow, or Desert.

Rationale:
The chateau needs a niche in the culture/gold space. Therefore, I have allowed it to grant culture to high appeal tiles around it. This is explicitly designed to work with the proposed Grand Tour. Not only does wonder+chateaux spamming lead to high appeal tiles, but the improvement itself allows a great deal of tourism to be generated from the terrain which can then be multiplied by any Grand Tour bonus. The design is intentionally trying to lead players to this conclusion.
Not only does france have the best Wonders, it is also the most beautiful country, period. You foreigners will simply have to settle with second place. *haughty chuckle.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of the numbers could be tweaked here and there, but this is entirely achievable without creating any new assets (we could reskin caroleans for musketeers, or just keep GIs.) I believe there is already a civ that has regular tiles get culture that is transformed into tourism at flight, so we should be able to adapt that.
 
@Sostratus

Some really cool ideas.

I think the UU is intended to be France's link to Napoleon (the GG points give that away). So, I'd be keen to keep it in the Industrial Era and keep it's GG points. I wonder if the UU would work better without the own continent bonus.

I like your ideas around the UI. My worry is that the coding wouldn't allow that. Are there any other UIs that enhance surrounding tiles?

What if the UA provided +Appeal to all tiles in a City with a Wonder, and then the UI provided culture for Appeal? Maybe with the UA also letting France rush Industrial and Modern wonders via Military Engineers?
 
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I think the UU is intended to be France's link to Napoleon (the GG points give that away). So, I'd be keen to keep it in the Industrial Era and keep it's GG points. I wonder if the UU would work better without the own continent bonus.
I know... that's why I mentioned changing the UU is optional. Less work for a mod!

I like your ideas around the UI. My worry is that the coding wouldn't allow that. Are there any other UIs that enhance surrounding tiles?
Seasteads enhance adj fishing boats; outback stations enhance adj pastures, for two examples. The same code that looks at earth goddess could likely be hijacked with the added "is adj to chateau" condition.
I was endeavouring under the assumption
Bonus points for making the least changes.
Because I like fake internet extra credit. So if you keep the UU (I'm either way on it, but offered an idea) then its purely some code tweak to the CUA and Chateau, and the tourism+wonders niche is still there.
 
@Sostratus

My suggested changes below.

Good point on the adjacencies for the UI. I think I may like your idea better - my idea is a little close to Mapuche. Still, see what you think.

I think I could probably mod this myself. I'll try having a go after the next patch (but no promises).

***

Leaders: Chaterine de Medici, Eleanor of Aquitaine

Leader Abilities: unchanged

Civ Ability: Grand Tour. +20% Production towards Wonders during a Golden or Heroic Age. Double Tourism and double Great Engineer, Writers and Artists Points from Wonders of any Era. French Cites with a Wonder receive +1 Appeal to all tiles in that City.

UB: Chateau. Unique Tile Improvement (one Builder Charge). Unlocks at Humanism. Provides +2 Culture, +1 Culture per Appeal Level above Charming (4 and above), and + 1 Gold for each adjacent Luxury Resource. Also provides +0.5 Housing and provides the same adjacency as a Farm.

UU: Garde Imperiale. Unique Industrial Era Melee Unit (unlocks at Military Science). Upgrades to Mechanized Infantry. Production Cost 340, Maintenance 5, Melee Strength 65, Movement 2. Additionally, +5 Combat Strength on France’s Home Continent, +5 Combat Strength if adjacent to a Great General, earns Great General points and +50% experience from Kills.

***

Rationale: improve flexibility and strength of UA and emphasize both industrial and artistic strengths of France, while maintaining focus on Wonder building and culture. Better synergy between UA and UB. Make UU more flexible and give it more utility off France's Home Continent given France did historically exert power outside Europe.

The additional housing and farm adjacency for the UI might be a bit much; and the UU is a bit wordy. I'm still thinking about those.
 
I like your idea Sostratus to make a single city a powerhouse of Tourism by spamming wonder, a little à la City of Light from Civilization V that give bonus to Paris at theming. Your idea is even better because you are not stuck to Paris (because if you have a bad start position with few wonder slot, you are screw). But it also make the civilization fairly easy to deal with: just capture that city, enjoy all the wonder for you, and eliminated a cultural threat. Furthermore:the base Tourism of a wonder is really low, making winning a tourism victory by building wonder is really difficult.

Not a fan to downgrading the Garde Impériale to earlier. I think we need a fix by putting all the unique unit out of unit line to be inside a unit line. Or if you prefer, make Garde Impériale an ealier Infantry that doesn't need oil.

Except for the Château, I think it is better to make general change that will affect all civilizations, but France will enjoy the most.


Culture and Tourism: maybe making that more useful?

In Civilization V, dominating a civilization with your culture have some nice side effet like a Science bonus on trade route, or a chance to flip city to your civilization if near you with an ideology. Maybe we need something in that spirit, and allow Tourism civilization to catch up, like draining Diplomatic Favor, a discount on science for technology already discovered, or a reduce combat strength of enemy units from dominated civilization.

Furthermore: the Wonder are a bad way to achieve a Tourism victory. Having all Ancient (6) and Classical (11) wonders yield 57 Tourism (114 with France) at medieval age. 4 Great Writers give more than that. The base Tourism from Wonders should be increased from 2 to 4.


Unique unit: on the line!

It is simple: all unique unit that are not a replacement can be upgraded from a less advanced unit of the same line and can be upgraded to the earlier unit of the line. For the Garde Impériale: can be upgraded from Musketman and upgrade to Infantry (and not have to wait to Mechanized Infantry).
Some side note: Garde Impériale should not cost Niter to upgrade, or very few, because the Musketman already have it.
Something to think about: should Archer upgrade to Maryannu Horse Archer or Saka Horse Archer? It is the same line of promotion afterall.


Focus on France: le Grand Tour des Châteaux!

One funny thing about France is that the bonus Production don't work for the Eiffel Tower, because it is a Modern Era wonder, but Grand Tour stop at Industrial. As era pass, the number of wonder of wonder available decrease: 6 Ancient, 11 Classical, 10 Medieval, 7 Renaissance, 8 Industrial, 4 Modern, and 3 Atomic. It will not be a great change to allow France to have an increased production for 7 more wonders, even if Modern era focus a lot of Tourism.

Château is weak compare to Rapa Nui or Granada UI. We can't make it a fort: it will be to similar to Great Wall or Alcázar. Maybe we need to get more inspired from Cahokia Mount. Like a 1 Culture, 1 Housing, 1 Appeal, 1 Amenity if next to a luxury (multiple Château around a single luxury can only have 1 Amenity), +1 Culture for each adjacent wonder, +1 Culture at Cultural Heritage.


So, in final, I will end by something like that:

Grand Tour
Double Tourism from Wonders of any era.
+5% Production towards Ancient Wonders, increased by 5% for each following era wonders.

Basicly: +5% for Ancient, +10% for Classical, +15% for Medieval, +20% for Renaissance, +25% for Industrial, +30% for Modern, and +35% for Atomic era Wonders.


Garde Impériale
Can be upgraded from Musketman, without costing any Niter.
Upgrade to Infantry, and doesn't have to wait to Mechanized Infantry.

Château
• 1 Culture, 1 Housing, 1 Appeal
• 1 Amenity if next to luxury ressource (multiple Château around a single luxury can only have 1 Amenity)
• 1 Culture per adjacent wonders
• 1 Culture at Cultural Heritage
Tourism from Culture at Flight.
Can only be built on river.

Tourism & Unique Unit change (general for all civilizations):
  • Base Tourism of Wonder are now 4 (instead of 2).
  • Civilization dominated by Tourism now give extra benefit to the dominant Civilization. If a civilization have a Tourism higher than 25%, 50%, 100% and 200% of domestic tourism of an other civilization, it have those bonuses*:
    • 25%: Enemy units have -2 CS against yours
    • 50%: Enemy unit have -3 CS against yours, and you enjoy 10% discount on Science for technology discovered by that civilization.
    • 100%: Enemy unit have -4 CS against yours, you enjoy 15% discount on Science for technology discovered by that civilization, and you drain 2 diplomatic favor per turn.
    • 200%: Enemy unit have -5 CS against yours, you enjoy 20% discount on Science for technology discovered by that civilization, you drain 3 diplomatic favor per turn, and cities of that empire suffer twice as much your loyalty pressure.
  • Unique units out that don't replace a unit can now be upgraded from a unit of earlier era. They can by upgraded to the earliest unit of the same line available, but that unique unit become obsolete only at the second earliest unit of the same line available (for example: Garde Impériale now can be ugraded to Infantry but get obsolete when Mechanized Infantry is avalaible). When two units are available (like Crossbowman and Crouching Tiger), the unit upgrade to the unique if it is inside a city-center or an encampment, and to the regular one elsewhere. If the unit need strategic ressource, but the upgrading unit already use that strategic unit, therefore it doesn't need that strategic ressource to upgrade (for example: Musketman doesn't need Niter to upgrade to Garde Impériale, but the Swordsman need Niter).
* : Those values and effects are not definitive. The whole idea is to give player focusing on Tourism to have some catch'up mechanic. I have choose to help those cultural civilization to defend better, catch'up in Science, being a threat in Diplomatic Victory and, in the end, becoming a real pain to contain if a neighbour completely ignore Culture. The value can be changed. Even some catch'up can disappear if not relevant.


Basicly, Tourism victory is now a threat and you have to watch out for your Culture if you don't pursue a Tourism Victory, or your whole civilization can flip while loosing diplomatic access. Furthermore, wonders give more tourism, making France, China and Egypt more useful for a Tourism Victory with wonders, and France have a production boost toward wonders that increase with the era. Now that Musketman upgrade to Garde Impériale without costing any Niter (or costing Niter if from Swordsman), France have an edge to conquer all the continent with ease at Industrial era. The Château is different and allow french cities to grow happier with extra Housing, but will have a little less Culture at the start and overall in exchange. Finally, I propose more change than I thought I will propose.
 
Furthermore:the base Tourism of a wonder is really low, making winning a tourism victory by building wonder is really difficult.
It is sad that wonders do squat for tourism- but that is why i was trying to make it so that Chateaux give tourism from their own tiles plus high appeal surrounding tiles, which is then boosted by the per-wonder bonus.
Also, obviously, don't lose "paris-" the own continent bonus of the UU (GI or replacement) helps with that. Every wonder builder is vulnerable to that! (Plus the effect in one city is only so strong since you have to spread out chateaux and great works- but its 'infinite scaling' gives players something to strive for!)
 
Does France's tourism bonus apply to great works in your Wonders or just to the Wonders themselves.
The Grand Tour's tourism effect is called TRAIT_CIVILIZATON_WONDER_TOURISM. I'm preeeetty sure from my attempt at getting the chateau achievement, it's just wonders' base tourism effect.
I mean almost any other civ's tourism ability is stronger than Grand Tour's tourism. The only real thing they have going for them is the tile tourism at flight. :(

But that's why I thought giving a modifier to all local tourism contingent on wonders in the city was a good way to give them real tourism teeth while keeping it tied to wonders.
 
Does France's tourism bonus apply to great works in your Wonders or just to the Wonders themselves.

Either way, another option might be to extend the Tourism bonus to Great Works (maybe limited to paintings).

The Grand Tour ability of France only works for wonders. Giving the bonus to the Great Works inside a wonder, à la Civilization V City of Light, will make the ability really close to the Kristina, Minerva of the North, that give a theme for wonders with slots and museum.
 
The Grand Tour's tourism effect is called TRAIT_CIVILIZATON_WONDER_TOURISM. I'm preeeetty sure from my attempt at getting the chateau achievement, it's just wonders' base tourism effect.
I mean almost any other civ's tourism ability is stronger than Grand Tour's tourism. The only real thing they have going for them is the tile tourism at flight. :(

But that's why I thought giving a modifier to all local tourism contingent on wonders in the city was a good way to give them real tourism teeth while keeping it tied to wonders.

The Grand Tour ability of France only works for wonders. Giving the bonus to the Great Works inside a wonder, à la Civilization V City of Light, will make the ability really close to the Kristina, Minerva of the North, that give a theme for wonders with slots and museum.

Agreed and agreed. But it also seems to me that, thematically, France should also get some bonus for artists. I'd originally suggested maybe extra great people points from wonders that give great people points - that would at least tie into the overall Wonder Bonus.

Maybe Tourism from Wonders and any Art Works in those Wonders would work? Or maybe additional tourism from Art from Medieval to Industrial Eras?
 
'Maybe Tourism from Wonders and any Art Works in those Wonders would work?'
This is really close to Kristina that have a theme for slots in Wonders. You can make it specific for Arts, but only the Hermitage is an Art museum. Well, Kristina ability could be Louis XIV, as Queen's Bibliotheque could be the Versailles palace, and wonders with slots would have more sense for France since the Louvre, Orsay or even that Centre Pompidou (that look like nothing you expect for a french museum).

Or maybe additional tourism from Art from Medieval to Industrial Eras?
Too restrictive, and frustrating mechanic. Arts have already too many restrictions and are already frustrating:
  • Arts are not as powerful than Artifacts, and don't have a Great People that give crazy yield (Mary Leaky!)
  • Arts are downgraded to 1 Culture and 1 Tourism if a piece of Art of the same Artist is in the Museum
  • Theme are harder to get.
So it will be better to have a bonus to Art (Paintings) of all kinds. It could be a bonus Culture and Tourism to make them worth more than Artifacts, or even others yields like Faith; have the ability to mix Arts and Artifacts in the same museum à la Louvre and get more bonuses from that (but that need to rethink how Archeologist work), or get bonus diplomatic point from themed museum or even Amenity.

But we can do something, France history is so rich that you can put almost every gamemechanic and have sense. Being a religious civilization? Medieval France is here, with Mt St Michel or Notre Dale. Being a secular civilization? Lumière era France is here. Being a warmonger civilization? Napoléon, and a lot of sucessful general! Being a defensive civilization? France was the crossroad of many nations that always wanted to invade him, so it isin his DNA. Being a colonial power? Of course! Being a pacific civilization? Well, not really. Since 2000, France went at war like, 10 times or more, and was more at war than peace since the last 1000 years. Being a cultural civilization? Of course, through softpower, diplomacy, wonders and great work! Don't you know all those painters? Being a diplomatic civilization? Possible, the french was the diplomatic language after all! Being a science civilization? Where does Pasteur, Lavoisier, most Curie, Laplace, Pascal, and many more came from?

Basicly, France can be everything you want, except a peaceful nation.
 
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