Reworking Hell

[tesb]

This week i want to redo the hell terrain (and hero claases) graphically, i intend only minor gameplay changes.


First let me summarize what i feel is wrong with the current implementation:

1) It is painful to look at, especially over longer gaming periods. Before i redid the fields of perditions the tiles would not even blend seamless into each other and even with this issue fixed the terrain itself is a strain on the eyes.

2) It is dull and lifeless. This is mostly the case because there are no trees or other features that blow 'life' into this terrain.

3) The flame improvement is way too spectacular, especially burning sands can make the eyes bleed if there is more than say 6 tiles.

So what i am going to do:

a) Redo the textures for fields of perdition and broken lands. i want to make the terrain less detailed (corpses, skulls, ...) and more regular like any other terrain. I will in cooperate more orange and try not to make it too dark.

b) Trees/Jungle/Ancient Forests and New Forests will no longer be removed when on hell terrain, instead they are converted into burnt forest. @Sephi i already did this coding via python, the only thing i would ask of you is some way that burnt forest does not automatically upgrade to new forest while on hell terrain. currently if burnt forest upgrade into new forest it will be reconverted into burnt forest the next round. Alternatively i could make a second type of burnt forest that act and looks the same, but does not upgrade to new forest and is placed when the other forests types get replaced by it. I think this would be a decent workaround, but if you have a better idea let me know

Spoiler :

Secondly i hope to change lumbermills so you can build them in burnt forests, i.e. evil civilizations can still get lumber (ever tried to get spears with the infernals?)

I will also add some new features that are spread with hell terrain (similar to flames on burning sand) and just look hellish (for example glowing rock formations, etc.). They are only there to spice the looks up (perhaps they have gameplay impacts later on in development, but i have nothing planned)

c) make a new flame improvement that looks not that distracting and perhaps reduce the chance for flames to spawn on burning sands (not so sure about that last part)

d) what i would also really like to make are different looking rivers on hell terrain, but i have no clue if that is even possible (the art assets can be done quickly, but that would chance the looks of all rivers)

 

[Tschuggi]

@ c) you could try to make them rivers into lavastreams... difficult thingy would be, how to handle rivers which cross normal and hellish land...

btw, very nice work, tesb

Greez,

Tschuggi

 

[dommain]

River should expand hell terrain quicker then the rest.

@ c) you could try to make them rivers into lavastreams... difficult thingy would be, how to handle rivers which cross normal and hellish land...

btw, very nice work, tesb

Greez,

Tschuggi

 

[tesb]

i don't think rivers are possible at all. the art for them can be made quickly, but i never saw any xml containing art entries for rivers. to me it seems that rivers are pretty much hard coded (i.e. rivers can have only have 1 look and not two, depending on terrain)

 

[esvath]

how about forest/ancient forest --> hell forest (couldn't find more appropriate name atm). the graphic is more frightening than burnt forest (tree glowing red, some infernal will-o-wisp play between the trees etc). the burnt forest is too boring for a hellish landscape, imho.

beside graphical benefits (more terrifying hell), there also gameplay benefit. we can add some "infernal" lumbermill in Ashen Veil sacred knowledge to be placed in the hell forest. thus, evil civs following AV (or at the very least, researching AV deep enough) will still able to harvest lumbers.

on hell terrain we have gulagarm, nightmare and razorweed too. maybe adding more interesting art for them will make hell more attractive.

 

[JujZe]

Yeah, those green resources does not really fit in hellish terrain.
too bad for the river thing..

 

[tesb]

tree glowing red,

the glow has to be static though

some infernal will-o-wisp play between the trees etc

not possible with tree tiling. the tiling removes any animation, i tried that already. but i will include some new features for better looks that can spawn in burnt forests and will make them look similar to what you suggested.

there also gameplay benefit

yes, but i don't want to go down that road too much. gameplay features is for sephi to worry about i still have to redo hero classes and port the aristrakh to the 1.3 economy once the economy is more or less finished. to be able to place regular lumbermill in burnt forests is more like bug fix to me, so every civilization can get lumber.

currently my priorities are:
-making new terrain textures for hell terrain
-redoing the flame feature
-create a new feature (with variations) that can spawn in hell terrain and set it up int he spawning code
-make lumber mills build able in burnt forests
-fix the issue with new forest regrowing for one turn on hell terrain

 

[esvath]

Actually, I proposed the new hell forest so that burnt forests remain un-lumber-able (is that a word? ). To be able to build lumbermills in burnt forests remove the tactical benefit of burning forests.

 

[tesb]

yes, i might do that. that would also solve the issue with the regrow of burnt forests on hell terrain (and immediately being switched back to burnt forests)

 

[Valkrionn]

i don't think rivers are possible at all. the art for them can be made quickly, but i never saw any xml containing art entries for rivers. to me it seems that rivers are pretty much hard coded (i.e. rivers can have only have 1 look and not two, depending on terrain)

Sticking my nose in...

From what I've seen, rivers cannot be modified. I know for a fact that Xienwolf had looked into this, as have many other modders, but the result is always the same; It's all or nothing.


Also, your terrains are looking great, btw. I may be asking to use them in the future, if you don't mind.

 

[tesb]

you can use any art assets from MoM that i created if you want

 

[Valkrionn]

Good to know... But we'd still ask each and every time.

Will you also be changing how hell is spread, or no? Interested to hear your ideas, seeing as we plan to revisit hell as well (Some of that can be found here)

 

[tesb]

yes there are plans for hell terrain, but i will focus on making the art. for actual gameplay you have to contact sephi. i am a bit cautious giving away internal discussion

 

[Valkrionn]

Eh, just passing curiosity. Not curious enough to make a pm.

Our (announced) plans focus mostly on how it spreads, but that mechanism also relies on our 'new' alignment method; Probably not a situation where the two mods would be similar.

 

[tesb]

i am too lazy to make another thread on the MoM forum, that is why i continue here:

When doing the hell terrain one thing that was very important to me is that you can look at the terrain for a gaming session, i.e. it should not place a strain on the eye. unfortunately most people associate fire and ash (i.e. red and dark grey/black) with hell. if i would have chosen these colors, especially for the most far spread terrains like broken lands and fields of perdition, it perhaps would look like hell, but it would also be a pain to watch at for longer periods.

So here is what i came up with:

Broken Land (South) and Fields of Perdition (North):

Spoiler :

Broken Lands (North) and Burning Sands (South)

Spoiler :

Fields of Perdition (North East), Burning Sands (South East) and Shallows (West)

Spoiler :

The terrain was placed via worlbuilder, so it look quite naked (no features, improvements, units, ...). Secondly you have to keep in mind that shallows are pretty rare and the most widespread terrain is broken lands and fields of perdition. Perhaps i chance Shallows with Burning Sands or make a different texture for Shallows. But i am pretty happy with the rest.

Now is the time to make improvements/features to spice the terrain up

 

[JujZe]

Well it certainly looks more hellish.
Are you planning to make forest in tundra and ice corrupted also?

sry my bad english

 

[tesb]

Are you planning to make forest in tundra and ice corrupted also?

Probably not. Hell terrain will probably see a change in the distant future anyways, so it will no longer be necessary to have hell versions of every terrain.

i changed the shallows terrain:

Spoiler :

it looks less hellish, but on the other hand it looks more in accord with the other hell terrains and it is easier on the eye.

i will put the fire/lava effects not into the terrain, but into features and improvements.

 

[JujZe]

Okies, can't wait to see this all in action!

 

[Tschuggi]

fields of perdition and burning sands look great, awesome, imho much better than the previous ones but I have to confess that the shallows hurt my eyes a bit, mostly because of the agressive red colour - maybe it's only because of the strong contrast... black - red...
Will there still be places that actually burn and are covered with flames, impassable terrain except for those with fire resistance or demonic race? OTOH these terrains always hurt my eyes a lot and were not were friendly to my RAM either, but it kind of looked terryfying - but there was always too much of it.

What do you have in mind for the improvements? Resources? Roads? Rivers (xml hardcoded, so maybe no rivers at all? Would look kind of strange when there is an idyllic bluish river floating through hell...)? Did you already speak with Sephi about the burnt forests and lumber? Will there be new resources? Couldn't you use Tarquelne's haunted lands, too? Maybe for the broken lands?

Greez,

Tschuggi

 

[Tschuggi]

Edit: didn't see the new shallow lands, like them more than the black-red version. Haunted lands??