RFC Europe: Papal States

[Hitti-Litti]

Papal States is definitely an extraordinary nation in RFCE, I though that it needs its own thread.

1. Papal States isn't playable, right?
2. In what ways are Papal States unique in gameplay, if in any way?
3. Will conquering Rome be made tougher than it normally would be? I mean, if nation A conquers Rome, could it suffer something like a -4 diplomatic penalty towards all Christian nations, representing the great anger of Christian nations for expelling the Pope? That would also make it harder for the human player to survive after conquering Rome, neighbouring great powers would try to kill it very soon.

 

[Cethegus]

What city is Catholicism's holy city in RFCE anyway? Is it Jerusalem or Rome?
If Rome, my idea is that if Nation A declares war against Nation B who both controls the aggressor's religion's holy city and is of the same religion as him, Nation A would receive diplomatic penalty with all civs of the same religion as him.

I don't know if that's doable, but in my eyes it would help Papal States become more unique nation and help reflecting how huge of a role it had in medieval European politics. If the holy city is Jerusalem, this feature could also be bound to Apostolic Palace. If not that, Papal States could have this as its UP. Still, I don't know if pulling this off is even possible but I'd like to see it that way.

Is Apostolic Palace going to be more interactive in RFCE than it is in normal BtS, anyway? Can you control arranging a "cardinal meeting" or is it going to remain turn-bound?

 

[onedreamer]

Catholicism holy city of course is Rome. I think there are no plans currently... hence ideas are encouraged.

 

[3Miro]

Papal stuff would be tied to Catholicism and not Christianity in general.

The Papal State would be another playable civ, with rules somewhat similar to an OCC. However, there would be an entirely different way of diplomatic interaction between the Papal State and the rest of the Catholic nations.

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

 

[Cethegus]

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

Good point. Have you an idea, though?

 

[jessiecat]

Papal stuff would be tied to Catholicism and not Christianity in general.

The Papal State would be another playable civ, with rules somewhat similar to an OCC. However, there would be an entirely different way of diplomatic interaction between the Papal State and the rest of the Catholic nations.

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

I don't really understand what you're talking about. I thought it was decided long ago the Papal State was an unplayable civ. It certainly says so on the wiki. And what is an OCC anyway??

 

[Fin Imperial]

Maybe it can be used someway like in Charlemagne? Perhaps players relations drop down sometimes, need to give units etc. to increase, or otherwise excommunicated?

 

[3Miro]

Right now there is no Papal State. (Rome is independent)

We would add a Papal State and if we make it unplayable, then everyone would start asking to make it playable. So we just might make it playable.

My idea is to make it more of a Diplomatic game. The Pope (i.e. the Papal State leader) would be allowed to name HRE leaders (for diplo bonuses) and anathema to punish civs that dislike the Pope. The idea would be that if a non-Pope is nice to the Pope, the non-Pope would get some bonus. Because of the crusades in the end, the Pope would want good relations with all the Catholic civs.

The Pope would be allowed to call on a Crusade. All Catholic leaders that like the pope would send some units. The Pope's main goal would be to capture Jerusalem. That would also hit the Arabs, since they would have to defend against the Crusade.

UHVs would be: 1. Keep Catholicism at a high percentage in year X (after the protestants appear), 2. capture and hold Jerusalem for 50 turns (either the pope or any catholic nation would do), 3. Convert one traditionally Orthodox nation to Catholicism (Bulgaria or one of the Russians), use diplomacy to get OB, then missionaries, then diplomacy to force a religion switch.

All of this is kind of unclear and up in the air for now. It would not be coded any time soon anyway.

 

[jessiecat]

Right now there is no Papal State. (Rome is independent)

We would add a Papal State and if we make it unplayable, then everyone would start asking to make it playable. So we just might make it playable.

My idea is to make it more of a Diplomatic game. The Pope (i.e. the Papal State leader) would be allowed to name HRE leaders (for diplo bonuses) and anathema to punish civs that dislike the Pope. The idea would be that if a non-Pope is nice to the Pope, the non-Pope would get some bonus. Because of the crusades in the end, the Pope would want good relations with all the Catholic civs.

The Pope would be allowed to call on a Crusade. All Catholic leaders that like the pope would send some units. The Pope's main goal would be to capture Jerusalem. That would also hit the Arabs, since they would have to defend against the Crusade.

UHVs would be: 1. Keep Catholicism at a high percentage in year X (after the protestants appear), 2. capture and hold Jerusalem for 50 turns (either the pope or any catholic nation would do), 3. Convert one traditionally Orthodox nation to Catholicism (Bulgaria or one of the Russians), use diplomacy to get OB, then missionaries, then diplomacy to force a religion switch.

All of this is kind of unclear and up in the air for now. It would not be coded any time soon anyway.

That's not a bad idea. Though I'd prefer the non-playable variety as in the Charlemagne mod, as has been suggested.

BTW. I still don't understand what you mean by an OCC.

 

[3Miro]

OCC = One City Challenge. Try it on regular civ at some point, it is fun.

1. Cannot build settlers.
2. All conquered or flipped cities autodestroy. (in our case we would make exception for Jerusalem)
3. The main city can build more national wonders (we may remove this for RFCE).

 

[jessiecat]

OCC = One City Challenge. Try it on regular civ at some point, it is fun.

1. Cannot build settlers.
2. All conquered or flipped cities autodestroy. (in our case we would make exception for Jerusalem)
3. The main city can build more national wonders (we may remove this for RFCE).

Oh. I see. I haven't played reg. civ for nearly a year. And I've never tried that.

 

[micbic]

I don't really understand what you're talking about. I thought it was decided long ago the Papal State was an unplayable civ. It certainly says so on the wiki. And what is an OCC anyway??

OCC stands for one city challenge (only one city can be built/ have to raze every other)

EDIT: @3Miro: Didn't notice your answer, I am currently working with turtle-speed internet.

 

[onedreamer]

I disagree about the Pope naming HR Emperors. This should be done through election among HRE members. I also find the Charlemagne implementation an acceptable one.
Or we could look at other games like Europa Universalis where one civ can become "Papal Controller" and have the ability to excommunicate leaders (not sure what this would mean since Civ4 doesn't implement casus belli) and other bonuses and/or be able to propose AP resolutions.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Actually, it was in Crusader Kings where one could become the Papal Controller..

 

[3Miro]

I want to give the Papal player a diplomatic tool to either punish or reward nations. We could put anathema/excommunication as the "punishing" thing. What do we do for reward. HRE looked natural to me, but we could think of something else. What about elect a Pope from the specific nation and give that nation some AP abilities, the point would be that the Papal player would choose the AP controller and thus everyone would have an interest to be nice to the Papal player.

 

[Fin Imperial]

That's a good idea, but that would make it so that ANYONE, even warmongering war country could become the papal controller and use that to its advantage. Anyway, my point is that it would base on Temples, Monasteries and cities with Catholicism who makes the next Pope, much like in Apostolic Palace.

 

[onedreamer]

Actually, it was in Crusader Kings where one could become the Papal Controller..

CK is based on Europa Universalis, which is the main title from Paradox, which has Papal Controller.



@3Miro

Actually I don't know if a playable Papal States is a good idea. It is very hard to implement especially because it is not a proper civ (IIRC none declared war on the Papal States directly, for example). The Popes crowned the HRE -until a certain point in History- but didn't elect him.
Your idea about the Papal Controller sounds cool, although it requires the Papal States to be playable and maybe some code to prevent it from going into war -at least with catholic non excommunicated civs.
One great power you could give to the Papal Controller is the following:
catholic civs receive huge diplo penalties with all other catholics when they declare war to another catholic civ. This penalty is lifted when they declare war to civs that are excommunicated, which can be done by the Papal Controller but only if the relationship between the excommunicated civ and the Papal States are below a certain threshold.
Instead I would leave to the Papal States player the ability to propose AP resolutions, and maybe its vote should count double.

 

[jessiecat]

As I said before, I really don't see much point in making the Papal States playable. What's the human player going to do? Build nice artistic wonders and sit around drafting AP resolutions? I'd much rather see an AI that controls the Papacy and AP that interracts with human players either positively or negatively. Like initiating crusades, excommunicating civs (big happiness and diplomatic penalties) or sending extra troops to friendly (Catholic) players. Much like the model used in the Charlemagne mod combined with the Apostolic Palace from RFC and with some of our own features added. At least that model is already coded for that mod and should be easy to incorporate into ours. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[3Miro]

The AI for the Papal State would be the hardest thing to do anyway. Giving the control to the human would be easier. Charlemagne's mod has many features, but the AI is just "stupid". For example, in Charlemagne they have an Inquisitor unit, when do you think the AI would build Inquisitors? Answer: randomly, with no underlying logic. When should the AI in RFCE build Inquisitors? Answer: (assuming I coded it properly), if the AI is running proper civic, and has foreign religion in the empire and there is no immediate danger to the city or empire (i.e. if the AI is at war, it would build units and pay less attention to internal religious affairs), then the AI wold build an Inquisitor.

Human Papal Controllers would build Missionaries and Inquisitors, ensuring the spread of Catholicism. Then they would have to use diplomatic tricks (excommunication, HRE or whatever) to gain highly favorable ratings with all Catholic nations. Then summon Crusades and conquer Jerusalem.

I want to make the Papal game unlike all other games in civ.

 

[Cethegus]

3Miro's mention about the missionaries brought one question in my mind: Could the AP resolution be coded so that the Papal States receive more counts as there are Catholic cities? This perhaps would encourage the Papal States spreading the Catholic faith in the world and be worth it from their point of view. If the Papal States aren't going to control more cities than just Rome, they would have to get their diplomatic points from somewhere else. Maybe this would be their UP? "+1 AP resolution vote for every Catholic city in the world." It would possily also encourage them not to target just certain nations in the world but spread the fun around so one nation doesn't become diplomatically too strong by building lots of religious buildings, thus topping the Papal States' AP votes.

However, they probably would have to be superbly dependant on Missionary activity. Maybe their UU could be a missionary that ignores border limits as long as the PS and the other country aren't at war with each other? That way the Papal States would have to put forth some effort into Christianizing the world and would benefit from it in the end.