Right to Rule - New Wonders

[Menocchio]

Wonders definitely need a balance pass; I'm positive that they were under-tuned across the board with the expectation that players would build them for their adjacency effects as much as for their own abilities. You end up with plenty that kind of do nothing after their era, or outside of their city: the House of Wisdom is great, but its slots are only relic slots, so in the Modern Age there's not much of a house left to store any wisdom in.

 

[Siptah]

So, I just built Thanh Hue, and well... it is as it sounded on paper. It is a nice bonus, but it requires a too large investment. Yes, the wonder becomes better with even more investment. But for just one city, it's not that great. And I don't want to build extra walls in another city just to make it worthwhile. At least, I got the challenge ticked off now.

On the plus side, I don't see the AI snatching that wonder.

 

[disjointaccount]

Wonders definitely need a balance pass; I'm positive that they were under-tuned across the board with the expectation that players would build them for their adjacency effects as much as for their own abilities. You end up with plenty that kind of do nothing after their era, or outside of their city: the House of Wisdom is great, but its slots are only relic slots, so in the Modern Age there's not much of a house left to store any wisdom in.

I do think that specifically for wonders, changing codex/relic/artifact slots to just "great work slots" would be a good change. For how competitive they are, it sucks to have Nalanda and HoW essentially get bricked in subsequent ages.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I do think that specifically for wonders, changing codex/relic/artifact slots to just "great work slots" would be a good change. For how competitive they are, it sucks to have Nalanda and HoW essentially get bricked in subsequent ages.

From a historical realism standpoint having Nalanda and the House of Wisdom go obsolete is exactly correct: neither one was a going concern after the Exploration Age period.

Of course, that might be the only time the Civ franchise paid any attention to a historical realism standpoint.

But IF we want Wonders to maintain some importance between Ages other than as a source of Adjacency bonuses, then I suggest two possible ways:

1. Change any inherent 'slots' or Wonder bonuses to a more generic Great Works or Resource, and define Distant Lands/Treasure Resources, Factory Resources and/or Civ Resources all as Special Resources so that any resource-based bonus can apply one way or the other in all three Ages.

2. Change the amount of bonus as the Ages change. As noted, a +2 Gold/Science/Culture is nothing in later Ages, so that kind of Wonder Bonus has to scale with the Ages to be anything like Wonderful.

 

[socratic]

Yeah Wonders definitely need to be reworked. Getting a wonder in previous games was so much fun because building one would give you an amazing ability that lasted the whole game. A lot of them now only give yields that drop off once you hit the next age. There should be more percent-based wonders like the new Ubidiah Mosque in eariler ages.

 

[Siptah]

I actually think it's fine that the wonders that are super good for a specific victory condition (House of Wisdom, Rila, Nalanda) lose most of their worth in the next age. They've done their job, presumably, and still there for adjacencies and some x from wonders yields.

 

[disjointaccount]

I actually think it's fine that the wonders that are super good for a specific victory condition (House of Wisdom, Rila, Nalanda) lose most of their worth in the next age. They've done their job, presumably, and still there for adjacencies and some x from wonders yields.

House of Wisdom I think is fine because it offers more value towards the relevant legacy path since it gives the relics and it still provides a bonus in the next age since it's "yields on great works", so artifacts still count.

My issue with Nalanda is that it's not even that good to begin with, since all it does is provide codex slots, which are super easy to come by otherwise, along with a science attribute point. The attribute point is nice, but comparing Nalanda to HoW, the latter is strong enough to justify its dropoff; the former isn't.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

House of Wisdom I think is fine because it offers more value towards the relevant legacy path since it gives the relics and it still provides a bonus in the next age since it's "yields on great works", so artifacts still count.

My issue with Nalanda is that it's not even that good to begin with, since all it does is provide codex slots, which are super easy to come by otherwise, along with a science attribute point. The attribute point is nice, but comparing Nalanda to HoW, the latter is strong enough to justify its dropoff; the former isn't.

Nalanda is, to my mind, one of the most situational Wonders. If you are playing Carthage, it is almost a Must Have because for one-city Carthage Codex slots are not easy to come by. For anybody else, it's no better than 'Nice to Have' and not worth scrambling for.

Which, I think, is a problem, because it introduces an unnecessary Heirarchy to Wonders. If some are meh and some provide useful game-long bonuses, then there is going to be (all other things being equal) massive competition for some Wonders and nearly none for others.

My favorite for a Type of Wonder design is the Terracotta Army. One of its effects - an extra Army Leader - is extremely useful in early to mid-Antiquity when it becomes available, but the requirement to put it on a flat grassland tile means any Civ that starts in Tropical, Tundra/Taiga, or Desert tiles will rarely have a chance to even start it. That's the kind of 'exclusivity' I'd like to see more of, where building a Wonder is connected to what your Civ is already trying to do and/or where it is doing it, rather than everybody being able to build the same Wonders for the same Bonuses regardless of biome, culture, government, or in-game situation.

 

[Xandinho]

The bonus from the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus feels odd because it doesn’t seem to have much historical connection to it

 

[Siptah]

The bonus from the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus feels odd because it doesn’t seem to have much historical connection to it

Maybe because it's a Mausoleum and has a Chariot on top in some reconstructions...

Funny thing with Halicarnassus is that the units don't respawn at the Mausoleum, nor necessarily the city it was built in, but in your capital. At least in later ages. I have to say though that I really got its worth in my current game. Seems quite a good pick if you planning for an aggressive game.

 

[Siptah]

House of Wisdom I think is fine because it offers more value towards the relevant legacy path since it gives the relics and it still provides a bonus in the next age since it's "yields on great works", so artifacts still count.

My issue with Nalanda is that it's not even that good to begin with, since all it does is provide codex slots, which are super easy to come by otherwise, along with a science attribute point. The attribute point is nice, but comparing Nalanda to HoW, the latter is strong enough to justify its dropoff; the former isn't.

Yes, Nalanda isn't as good as House of Wisdom or Rila, but you get not just two slots. It's also a free codex, which can be quite handy, depending on the city state or narrative event situation. That said, I hardly ever build it, because the AI is always faster. I don't see the value for Carthage that much, I always have enough slots with my 10+ towns

 

[disjointaccount]

If you are playing Carthage, it is almost a Must Have because for one-city Carthage Codex slots are not easy to come by.

Tbf, I think that's much less so the case these days with urban centers making it even easier than the previous setup with trade outposts.

My favorite for a Type of Wonder design is the Terracotta Army. One of its effects - an extra Army Leader - is extremely useful in early to mid-Antiquity when it becomes available, but the requirement to put it on a flat grassland tile means any Civ that starts in Tropical, Tundra/Taiga, or Desert tiles will rarely have a chance to even start it. That's the kind of 'exclusivity' I'd like to see more of, where building a Wonder is connected to what your Civ is already trying to do and/or where it is doing it, rather than everybody being able to build the same Wonders for the same Bonuses regardless of biome, culture, government, or in-game situation.

Agree with this. I'm very glad that all terrains are viable now but I do think it'd still be nice if they influenced how your empire grew. Mundo Perdido and Petra are great for providing big benefits to certain terrains; it'd be really cool to see more to allow your cities to take on identities based on the terrain they're in.

 

[Berrern]

So, I just built Thanh Hue, and well... it is as it sounded on paper. It is a nice bonus, but it requires a too large investment. Yes, the wonder becomes better with even more investment. But for just one city, it's not that great. And I don't want to build extra walls in another city just to make it worthwhile. At least, I got the challenge ticked off now.

On the plus side, I don't see the AI snatching that wonder.

I guess it depends on your civilization. I just built this wonder as well, and I'm Dai Viet, whose civics give great bonuses to building walls.
I've actually got 7 cities with 7+ walls, in one city I even have 12! Getting the Enlightenment legacy path done with the bonus from this wonder was a breeze