Civ Discussion - Ming

[bengalryan9]

The next alphabetical civilization on our list of exploration civs is the Ming. The Ming are an economic and scientific civilization with a starting bias towards silk and coastal terrain. Their associated wonder is the Forbidden City, which gives +2 base culture and +2 culture and gold on all fortification buildings in the settlement. To unlock them you can either play as Han in antiquity, as Confucious as your leader, improve 3 silk tiles, or have 8 resources slotted in one settlement. They automatically unlock the Qing in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Great Canon of Yongle, which gives +50% science in the capital at the cost of -15 science per turn for each social policy (non-tradition) slotted.
Their unique military unit is the Xunleichong, a swordsman replacement that gets +4 CS in featureless tiles as well as a ranged attack.
Their unique civilian unit is the Mandarin, a merchant replacement that gains 100 gold any time it builds a road.
Their unique infrastructure is the Ming Great Wall, which gives +5 culture as well as +1 gold for every adjacent fortification. They can only be built in a line, with no forks or branches.

Ming Civics:
Nine Garrisons – unlocks the Ming Great Wall, the Divine Engine Division tradition, and at mastery gives +2 gold on Great Walls in settlements with a bank as well as +3 CS to ranged units adjacent to Xunleichong.
Lijia – unlocks the Baojia tradition and gives +25% gold towards purchasing buildings in towns. At mastery it grants +2 resource slots to your capital.
Da Ming Lu – unlocks the Grand Secretariat tradition and gives the mandarin 25 science anytime they build a road. At mastery it unlocks Forbidden City and gives +1 settlement limit.

Ming Traditions:
Divine Engine Division - +2 science in any settlement with a garrisoned unit
Baojia - +1 science for each resource assigned to a city, which becomes +2 in cities other than your capital
Grand Secretariat - +2 science on gold buildings and +2 gold on science buildings

What are your thoughts on the Ming? Strong, weak, or just right? What part of their kit are you a fan of, and which do you feel are underwhelming? Which leaders pair well with them, and which civs make for good compliments in the antiquity or modern ages? What’s the longest Great Wall you’ve managed to build?

 

[bengalryan9]

I think Ming provides a pretty strong mix of culture and science.

The Ming Great Wall provides a ton of culture and is IMO much easier to take advantage of than the Han Great Wall - in antiquity your settlements are still growing and so you might not have access to the tiles you really want to put your walls on, but in exploration I find that is much less of an issue and I can build some pretty nice ones along my border tiles and around my resources. These can really nullify your need to build culture and gold buildings if you want to focus on other things, and they obviously pair amazingly well with Forbidden City. I think I managed to get a wall that was 9-10 tiles long in my last game with Ming... it was curving all over the place, but it worked for me! The Great Wall also counts towards the new Vietnamese wonder effect, too, so take advantage of that for extra specialist slots.

Your capital is obviously going to be producing a ton of science. The malus is pretty easy to ignore as long as you are coming from an antiquity civ with decent cards... I usually don't see the penalty at all until close to the end of the age when I've got more slots than I do traditions. Baojia is probably their best tradition. Divine Engine Division is easy science for someone like me that keeps a garrison in every city, but it's probably not going to be all that much - (20-30 science, max?). Grand Secretariat is nice but nothing earth shattering, though gold producing science buildings paired with your great walls will really help your economy and you get to purchase buildings at a 25% discount too.

Xunleichong is pretty strong. Mandarin not so much. Ming is also a very easy unlock in my experience (8 resources in one settlement is simple).

I feel like Ming can work well with just about any leader. If you're looking for someone not quite as obvious, try Achaemenid Xerxes to further strengthen your Great Walls and Mandarins. As far as civs to pair them with, Han obviously fits like a glove in antiquity, but consider Assyria or Mississippian for something a little more not traditional. In the modern age I could see Mughal being a fun pairing.

 

[tedhebert]

I dislike Ming. contains a malus, first of all… and I feel all the abilities are really Meh ! The mandarin doesn’t add anything of interest, the wall is ok I guess gives culture but I’m not into spamming endless walls…

The CS part of xunleichong is extremely situational. the ranged attack is nice, but not fantastic.

The traditions are decent.

anyways this is the explo civ that feels the most bland to me, I never choose them anymore.

 

[Leucarum]

Their malus really depends on whether your previous civ has good traditions... Which most of the civs in antiquity do. You probably won't want too many celebrations but avoiding the malus isn't too hard.

Still, this is not a civ which gives me much desire to play on into exploration if it's my best choice...

 

[disjointaccount]

I'm realising over the course of these threads that there are definitely far fewer explo civs that appeal to me than antiquity ones. Ming are fine; I just don't see much of an argument for playing them over Abbasid for science. Definitely one that leans towards tall play, but again I'm just not convinced they're the best option for that. And the malus can really stack up if you're getting lots of celebrations. The wall working for Thanh Hue actually seems like a really cool synergy I'd like to try out.

 

[Leucarum]

I'm realising over the course of these threads that there are definitely far fewer explo civs that appeal to me than antiquity ones.

I've felt that too, but in previous games 80-90% of my favourite civs were also ancient civs, so I'd assumed it was that... But these threads seem to have gotten a lot quieter in exploration.

 

[pjotroos]

I think it's just much easier for Antiquity civ to feel impactful, because every little extra matters. Then again, there are some standout civs in Exploration (Bulgaria, Abassid, Dai Viet) and some that provide a fun spin on one of the era objectives (Mongolia, Inca, Songhai), and Ming is neither of those.

They are decent across the board, though - with solid boost to science that more than makes up for their malus, and possibility for a lot of extra gold and culture out of their great wall. They're not what you'd pick to complete any of the exploration objectives - they don't make relic gathering, collecting the treasure convoys, or colonisation any easier - but they can set you up for a very solid start in Modern; I always have easy time getting some future research and civics done with them, and I love the mini-game of building the greatest wall possible, meaning the turn 1 yields in modern will be high, and the tech and civic costs low. They're definitely in the upper half performance-wise, just more of a jack of all trades.

Great synergies with Assyria (for science on great wall), pair really nicely with their own wonder. Odd anti-synergy with Han, and the same-but-better unique improvement. I enjoyed playing them whenever I did, because the sim-city aspect of planning a long, uninterrupted great wall is a fun spin on exploration play, but they're a textbook good-not-great pick.

 

[disjointaccount]

Then again, there are some standout civs in Exploration (Bulgaria, Abassid, Dai Viet) and some that provide a fun spin on one of the era objectives (Mongolia, Inca, Songhai)

Yeah, this is what makes me think it's maybe just that antiquity's roster is just more interesting lol. Antiquity is definitely the most exciting part of the game, but I do still enjoy exploration and it has some great civs; it's just that those great civs are fewer than in the prior age.