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RoC-Unleashed! Development Thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Camber, May 11, 2005.

  1. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

    Joined:
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    Location:
    The Great Beyond
    Rhye's of Civilization has quickly become my favorite mod in the last 6 months. In many ways, it is my ideal mod, especially the Expansion module. But in other ways, it leaves me wanting more. This thread is devoted to a mod of the mod, which I call RoC-Unleashed!

    Unleashed mainly refers to my attempts to "take the lid off" the incredible expansion to the RoC mod. This is done with three main features:

    1. The addition of an entire Future era, with future resources, units, and buildings.
    2. The addition of the entire inner solar system to the game map.
    3. The addition of rare and specialized units throughout the ages, requiring highly transient resources called "Innovators."

    I'll outline each of these features in greater detail.

    1. Future Era.
    I'm scrunching together the Industrial and Modern eras, so that the Modern era ends in the early "Modern Era" tech tree page. They actually don't look much more scrunched than the tech trees of the 2 earlier ages, which were more densely packed than the last 2 (in the traditional RoC).

    I have changed the RoCX tech tree slightly as far as the pathways between techs are concerned, mostly to allow a more coherent tree when it is scrunched a bit, but with an attempt to maintain historical and scientific realism. The Future Era, as I have developed it so far, will have the following techs:

    Miniaturization (enables Silicon resource)
    Space Flight
    Synthetic Fibers
    Globalization
    --
    Robotics (requires Miniaturization; enables Titanium resource)
    The Laser (requires Miniaturization)
    Satellites (requires Space Flight)
    Ecology (requires Synthetic Fibers and Globalization)
    Cataclysmic Apocalypse (requires Globalization, triggers obsolescence for many buildings)
    ---
    Supercomputers (requires Robotics)
    Superconductors (requires Miniaturization and The Laser; enables Superconductors resource)
    Post-apocalyptic Anarchy (requires Cataclysmic Apocalypse; enables numerous "salvage" resources)
    Rise of the Machines (requires Cataclysmic Anarchy; enables Technocracy gov't)
    ---
    Fusion Power (requires Supercomputers and Superconductors; enables Fusion Cells resource)
    Space Warfare (requires Superconductors and Satellites)
    Terraforming (requires Ecology; enables some resources located off-planet, required for terraforming Mars and Venus)
    Rise of the Mutants (requires Post-apocalyptic Anarchy; enables Mutocracy gov't; enables mutant-related resources)
    Insurgency (requires Post-apocalyptic Anarchy; enables Insurgency gov't)
    Living Fuels (requires Rise of the Machines; enables Biofuels resource)
    ---
    Novum Imperium (requires Fusion Power; enables Imperial Theocracy gov't)
    Magnetic Manipulation (requires Fusion Power and Space Warfare; enables Mag Cells resource)
    Integrated Defense (requires Space Warfare)
    ---
    Energy Weapons (requires Fusion Power; enables Power Cells resource)
    Artificial Gravity (requires Magnetic Manipulation)
    Genetic Engineering (requires Terraforming)
    Biorobotics (requires Post-apocalyptic Anarchy and Living Fuels)
    ---
    Advanced Composites (requires Artificial Gravity; enables EDC--Energy-Dampening Composites (armor) resource)
    Guided Mutation (requires Genetic Engineering and Rise of the Mutants)
    ---
    Focused Plasma (requires Energy Weapons and Advanced Composites; enables Plasma Cells resource)
    Ecobalancing (requires Genetic Engineering)
    Artificial Life (requires Guided Mutation and Biorobotics)
    ---
    FTL (Faster-Than Light) Drives (requires Focused Plasma)
    Energy Shielding (requires Focused Plasma)
    Harnessed Antimatter (requires Focused Plasma; enables Antimatter resource)


    As one reads over this list, a few things should jump out.
    1. There are three pathways that are mostly independent of one another: a traditional sci-fi warfare path, an eco-terraforming-genetics path of peaceful science, and a post-apocalyptic path. These three paths allow a player to choose between two high-cost, high-returns paths to victory (peaceful or warlike), and an alternative path for those who have limited access to resources (the apocalyptic path). This also allows those who don't like certain sci-fi futures (such as the post-apocalyptic ones) to avoid them altogether.

    2. The tree is very resource-heavy and government-heavy. This is intentional and allows for leaner tech-tree boxes while still giving a fair number of buildings and units per tech. In this mod, a large number of units and buildings will not be "tech-enabled" in the editor, so that they don't show up on the tech tree visually. Instead, they will be resource- or government-enabled. This allows the tech tree to not look so dense, with smaller boxes.

    For example, the Mutocracy government will allow a player to upgrade most of his units to "mutant" versions, as will the Technocracy and Imperial Theocracy governments. So for a given resource, such as Mag Cells, it will enable several different space fighter units of similar function and stats. The direction of upgrades within each unit type (where "regular" means a unit flavor not associated with any future gov't) will be insurgency->mutocracy->regular->technocracy->imperial theocracy, so that a player switching from mutocracy to imperial theocracy would be able to change his units to the new appearance, but not the reverse. This path was determined based on the projected research costs of getting to the three futuristic governments and the projected unit costs of the government "flavor" units. Insurgency units will cost the least but will also be less powerful. They will also have very few resource-tagged units, instead using more of the guerilla-type units. The Imperial Theocracy flavor of any given unit type will be the most expensive and pack a heavy punch. Balance will be achieved through government features, such as corruption, unit support, and war weariness.

    Unit Flavors
    -----------
    The look of the four governments will reflect four distinct strains in sci-fi worlds. The "regular" units will, for the most part, look generic and won't be associated with a particular sci-fi "franchise." Examples would be most of Neomega's and bhiita's futuristic units.

    Insurgency units will look like Star Wars Rebel Alliance units but will include other rag-tag units. I'm not very committed to this, and might drop the Insurgency goverment altogether. It is meant to function mostly like a later version of Despotism.

    Technocracy units will look like an amalgamation of Terminator and Star Wars Imperial units, especially favoring robotic units. The whole Rise of the Machines vision of a post-apocalyptic future is borrowed mostly from Terminator, Matrix and similar sci-fi fiction.

    Mutocracy units will be a combination of Fallout and Ork units from the Warhammer 40K universe. The idea is that following a cataclysmic apocalypse (nuclear war, severe global warming, asteroid impact, take your pick), mutants became a sizeable and powerful force on the planet.

    Imperial Theocracy units will mostly borrow from the Warhammer 40K universe Space Marines, but may also include various mech units from other sources.

    In summary, the future era will be packed full of a lot of sci-fi stuff that I certainly enjoy, and hopefully stuff that other people enjoy too. The Star Trek stuff is probably the only sci-fi artwork that I won't use. I feel that it is too iconic to be a part of a non-Star Trek mod. Maybe other people feel the same way about Star Wars or WH40K, so that is certainly up for discussion.

    Here is the current modpack:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. utahjazz7

    utahjazz7 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Even though I am not a big fan of the modern era and future eras, it certainly sounds like your mod has potential to be rather fun. Good luck.
     
  3. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    *thanks, utahjazz7, and thanks for all the great unit graphics you've made!*

    More on new units, buildings and resources. First, the Map.

    2. Map of the inner solar system.

    For my basic earth map I'm using V.Soma's 100x100 standard earth map for the RoC variation called Clash of Empires. This map I have tweaked a little, mainly by eliminating all Sea tiles and moving sea-based resources (such as Whales) to coastal tiles.

    I then expanded the map to 102x362 tiles. The extra 2 tiles width at the left edge of the map allowed me to widen the Bering Strait, and eliminate the need for LM Sea tiles that had been in the Bering Strait (these high-movement-cost tiles prevented early Bering Strait crossings).

    Space
    ------
    I added space tiles above and below earth, with the top much larger than the bottom (about 102x200 on the top, and about 102x62 added to the bottom of the map). Space tiles are represented by Sea squares, which was chosen because it can be given LM (landmark) values and I needed 2 varieties of space tiles. For the Sea tiles I'm using the wOOO tileset from Lukree's Space Terrain. In the scenario folder I have this replacing the lwSSS and wSSS tilesets (the LM and regular Sea tiles). Somewhere along the line in the development of this mod, I'm going to need someone to blend the Lukree tileset with the RoC tileset, so there aren't hard edges. That will come later.

    The LM Sea tiles are labeled Space and have a movement cost of 10. These surround Earth, the moon, all of the inner planets, and the asteroid belt. Regular Sea tiles are labeled Outer Space and have a movement cost of 100. These surround Jupiter and the Jovian moons, and also run in a band between Mars and the asteroid belt. The distances aren't exactly accurate, but they fit the expected relative distances. The effect is that going between the inner planets will be fairly fast (say, with a space ship with a movement value of 60), but will slow down to a 1-tile-per-turn grind when trying to reach the asteroid belt or Jupiter.

    Planets
    -------
    Sizes of the planets represented (Mercury through Jupiter) are based on planet diameters in kilometers. Earth at 100x100 tiles was the starting point, all planet sizes are relative to earth but reduced to 1/4 size (so that 25x25 would be roughly the same size as a 100x100 Earth), to properly represent their reduced inhabitability per square kilometer (it would be ludicrous to have Venus or Mars support more inhabitants than Earth).

    Formula for planet size is as follows: [(Diameter)(proportion of Earth actual to Earth in-game)]/4. Proportion of Earth actual (12,756 km) to Earth in-game (100) is 0.0078394.


    Planet/Satellite----Diameter (km)----x0.0078394----/4-------In-game Size
    _________________________________________________________________
    Mercury-----------4,878------------38.24---------9.56------10x10
    Venus------------12,104-----------94.888---------23.9------24x24
    Earth-------------12,756-----------100.00---------n/a------100x100
    Moon--------------3,476------------27.25---------6.88-------7x7
    Mars--------------6,794-------------53.26--------13.32------14x14
    Phobos--------------42--------------0.32----------0.08---not represented
    Deimos--------------24--------------0.19----------0.05---not represented
    Asteriods----------varied------------varied--------varied---1x1, only the largest asteroids are represented
    Jupiter*----------142,980----------1120.88--------280.22-mostly off-map, only the leading edge is shown
    Amalthea-----------170--------------1.33----------0.33-------1x1
    Thebe--------------100--------------0.78----------0.20---not represented
    Io-----------------3,630------------28.46----------7.11-------7x7
    Europa------------3,130-------------24.58---------6.13--------6x6
    Ganymede---------5,268-------------41.30---------10.33-----11x11
    Callisto------------4,806-------------37.68---------9.42------10x10
    Himalia--------------185--------------1.45----------0.36-------1x1
    _________________________________________________________________
    *Jupiter has at least 27 other satellites too small to represent on the map.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Tileset
    ------
    I originally wanted all extra-terrestrial bodies to use terrain tiles from Smoking mirror's Mars Mod (Landmark Desert, Plains, Grassland, Hills, and Mountains only). Although the red color is off for many objects (most notably the Moon), it will be close to appropriate for Mercury, Venus, and Io, and certainly looks better than green tiles. I had to scrap this idea however, because I need to use LM Forest tiles on Earth (this will be explained later), and this caused graphical problems around LM Forest and also on Io and Venus where Volcanoes bordered LM tiles. For the present, I am using the same tileset for all planets and satellites. Ideally, I would use a tileset that I described in this post if I could find someone to make it.

    As mentioned, I removed all Sea tiles from Earth, and replaced these with Ocean. I made Whales a coastal resource, and moved all Whales to a nearby coastal tile. I removed Food and Commerce values from Space and Outer Space. I will also remove all Food and Commerce values from Coast. Coastal bonuses will be resource-determined. I will add the 3-blank (___) RoC resource to all terrestrial coastal waters, with a Food value of 1 and Commerce value of 2. I will also raise food and commerce values of all
    other coastal resources by 1 and 2, respectively (Fish, Whales, etc., all 16 coastal resources except the 3-blank resource and two negative resources just before Silver (in case they were made for lakes).

    Harbors, Spaceports, and other Necessary Changes
    -------------------------------------------------
    It would have been a problem to have Harbors still functioning in the space-colonization era, if it weren't for the ability to remove the the "allows trade over sea tiles" flag from the Astronomy tech. I haven't yet tested this in-game, but I believe that trade can occur across Ocean if it is enabled, while it is simultaneously barred across Sea. I also removed the "reveal map" flag from the Satellites tech. This will come much later, perhaps with the FTL Drive tech.

    So I won't need to make Harbors obsolete, but I think I will need to make Airports obsolete around the same time that the first transport-enabled spacecraft becomes available, so that resources can't be traded across space right away. They will be replaced by a Spaceport building.

    I have made Sea impassable by wheeled units, and made all naval vessels wheeled, so that all naval units are barred from entering Space tiles.

    Non-earth Terrain and Terraforming
    ----------------------------------
    On planets other than Earth, the tiles will mostly be Landmark, allowing for "Grasslands," etc. with no food value on Mars and Venus that can later (with terraforming techs) be irrigated and even "forested." The ability to irrigate without water will be moved from Electricity to the Ecobalancing tech. The ability to plant forest will be moved from Engineering to the Terraforming tech. On Earth, all "forest" tiles are actually represented by LM Forest. The LM tileset used is Combined Forests by Telgar/Rhye/Snoopy.

    This frees up the "forest" tileset to be used for a future-era improvement, the Biopod. I renamed Forest to Biopod. Gave all biotic resources to Biopod (Game, Horses, Elephants, etc--and gave them a low disappearance probability, so that some will reappear on Biopods later in the game). took away all non-biotic (Coal, Uranium, etc.) so that we don't have Coal appearing on top of Biopods on Mars late in the game. Gave Bipod a food value of 3, shield 1 and commerce 1. Gave these the Hydroponics graphic by bhiita.

    The surface of Venus will be covered with pollution, to simulate the toxic heavy clouds covering the planet. The "edge" of Jupiter, on the top of the map, will be just pollution, with no land underneath. We don't want anyone "landing" on Jupiter! Pollution also represents sulphur on surfaces of Io and Amalthea.

    *more soon to come!*
     
  4. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    I am placing here the current map, to give a feel for what things look like. I will update it over time as things move along. To view the map properly, I recommend downloading the RoC and RoCX files (without them, some resources may not appear). You don't have to download the Combined Forests file; I'm using one that I've adapted from Telgar's original.

    Some things I need to do next: Change all the tiles on non-Earth planets to LM tiles (with no food value); place the craters on Mars; place the toxic atmosphere on Venus (represented by pollution); delete all the unneeded Barbarian camps leftover from the import of V.Soma's map.

    Currently I am working on putting resources on the map. V. Soma's map (100x100) was made for 8-15 civilizations, and I'm going to be putting 31 on it. So you will notice that the starting positions are pretty densely placed. Never fear, there are ways that I will compensate for the crowding!

    1. I am making sure that there are adequate resources on the planet for all 31 civs. As a reference point, I am using the RoCX map and placing all the resources onto this one (as much as possible) in the same locations. If you look at England, Netherlands, France, Spain, and Portugal, you will see my progress on this. The resources are thick! Basically this means that every city in the game is going to be super-productive. This will reduce the need to adjust tech costs (and other costs) of RoCX to fit the 100x100 map. Certainly a lot of balancing will need to be done once all the resources are placed. The RoCX ruleset allows for 22 "invisible" resources that can further adjust the value of a city site, to allow for further balancing. Some of these have negative values (such as -1 shield), and others have positive values. Crowded Europe, for example, had many of these, to make it competetive with civs like Russia and America that had far more real estate.

    As an example, here are the resources that I added already to the 5 civs I mentioned. Only "visible" resources are listed, and resources that I couldn't fit onto the map (but were present on the RoCX reference map) are listed in parentheses. RoCX has some food resources that appear later in the game (such as Wheat , Wheat , and Wheat ). I record these as "Wheat-", "Wheat--", and "Wheat---" to help me keep track of the spaces after their names.

    England
    -------
    Horse, Dyes, Cattle--, Coal2, Furs3, Oil2, Gold, Saltpeter2, Iron
    Oil also on an island NE of Scotland
    GoodyHut2
    Fish6

    Netherlands
    -----------
    Dyes2, Cattle, Saltpeter2 (shared with Berlin)
    GoodyHut
    (Game-, Cattle in Denmark--no room)

    France
    ------
    Core: Wheat-, Coal, Wines
    Near Germany: Wine, Iron2, Coal (shared)
    South: Horse2, Uranium, Saltpeter, Wines, Aluminum3
    GoodyHut2

    Spain
    -----
    Core: Uranium, Saltpeter, Dye, Cattle, Iron
    North: Iron2 (one didn't fit), Saltpeter, Coal
    South: Silver, Horse, Sugar-2, Wine2
    GoodyHut
    Fish6

    Portugal
    --------
    Core: Game-, Wheat--
    Wine, Saltpeter, Cattle-- (shared with Spain)
    GoodyHut
    Fish4

    2. I am increasing the city population limits to 7 and 15, from 6 and 12. This will enable 2-3 cities for a civ to give you close to what you would get from 4-5 cities in the CoE mod that the 100x100 map is based on (V. Soma spent a lot of time balancing the map for 4-5 cities per civ).

    3. One concern I would have with 2-3 cities per civ is finding production space for building Wonders. I have developed an innovation to handle this concern that I call "Barracks Add-ons," or BAOs.

    Every time a unit becomes available to be built, a Barracks Add-on (or Airport or Harbor Add-on) also becomes available with it. I will make the basic explanation using land units, but understand that it applies to Naval and Air units also.

    A Barracks Add-On (BAO) is a Small Wonder that can only be built in a city containing a Barracks. The cost of the building is twice that of the unit associated with it. So if Warriors cost 10, the BAO associated with it has a cost of 20. Once the BAO is built, it begins autoproducing that unit at a rate that is relative to the cost of the unit. Exact values have not been worked out yet, but suffice it to say that a Spearman BAO would produce Spearmen faster than a Knight BAO would produce Knights.

    The BAO becomes obsolete with the technology that enables the next upgrade for the unit associated with it. So the BAO for Spearmen, available with Bronze Working, would become obsolete with the Feudalism if we were talking about C3C, since Feudalism enables Pikemen and Spearmen upgrade to these. Thus, it becomes very important in the game that there not be any dead-end units, so that the BAO for units will always have a point of obsolescence. Thus, I will have Industrial and Modern-era upgrades for Cavalry (I've found some nice advanced mounted unit graphics for this purpose).

    I expect that there will be some major questions about this feature, since it will alter a fundamental aspect of the game. Bear in mind that there will only be one of these per civ (though they won't disappear when the city they are in is conquered, because they won't generate culture), that they can have a decent maintenance cost, and that all of the units produced will also require maintenance. The rate of autoproduction can also be tweaked to provide balance. The main purpose of BAOs is to free up civs from having to only work on building units, especially if a civ only has one or two cities.

    4. I am also reducing movement on roads to 2 (from 3) to make the closeness between civs a little less suffocating. I don't feel the need (yet) to adjust naval movement values. That may come later.

    .biq file removed after 47 views. Check first post for current .biq file. NOTE: it is not a complete modpack, so it won't have all the files needed to run, but can be opened just fine in the editor.
     
  5. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    If this all goes according to plan, it will be simply awesome.

    My only caveat is with the Barrack Add-Ons. I've found that unit-producing improvements should be used with caution. The reason is that they do subvert a basic principle of the game, which is that you must have something to do with your resources. That is, a city gathers resources from its tiles, and it must have somewhere to put them - there needs to be flow. If your units being auto-spawned then that removes - or at least reduces - one of the key things to do with your resources. So if you go down this route you should be careful at least to ensure there are plenty of other things to build - that is, more improvements, for example, than the standard game provides. Otherwise you may find that the player builds everything available too quickly (because of needing to build fewer units) and it becomes less interesting.
     
  6. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    Wow, great advice. I hadn't thought of it that way. My initial response was to say that BAOs would be more limited, but there is a simpler way to eliminate the need for producing units by hand, when production space is limited. Conscription. What if conscription became available earlier, such as in the Ancient Age? Historically, militias and conscriptions have always been a part of civilization. So why not make it available from the start? Resources would always be needed in the process, ready-made units would come at a cost (hit points, unhappiness, loss of population). It looks to be a more tidy a solution than BAOs.
     
  7. Scytale

    Scytale Shaping the Old World

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    I have just seen the map and your ideea is great! I can't wait too see more and if I can help I will(even if for the next month I can't do anything because of my exams after that I will be offering my full asisstence for whatever you might need...except units :) ).
    Also, I was wandering if aliens would play a part in your mod? Still with or without them(aliens) this is one of the greatest ideeas in a long time! I wish you luck!
     
  8. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    Thanks, Scytale, I will enjoy having your help! Aliens will definitely be in the mod, but not likely as "aliens." Instead, they will be mutant units that can be built after the Cataclysmic Apocalypse tech turns the world inside-out. So, for example, CivArmy s. 1994's Alien unit will be something that can be made using Guided Mutation. But they won't invade from outer space.

    I originally toyed with the idea of having two types of civs: the 15 "main" civs found in Clash of Empires (by V. Soma), and then minor "rogue" civs that acted as barbarians. There are several piratey-type units graphics that would work with this concept, and even a pirate leaderhead (though it is not era-specific). This also lead to the idea of having space pirates that hang out on the dark side of Granymede or in the asteroid belt. Here are my production notes from that time:

    The "two more Rogue techs" refers to the Ancient and Medieval-era techs that are religious-specific. For Rogue states, there would be piratey techs instead. I also planned to have a Future-era rogue tech called Cloaking that would allow them to build invisible ships (probably Klingon Birds of Prey). But invisible units don't work in the game the way they should.

    I gave up the idea of rogue civs as too complicated, especially when I could see that there wouldn't be enough units to really flesh them out as a distinct type of civ. Plus, to really make them effective, they would need their own culture group. I like the idea of aliens, but I think that having mutant civs (see post #1 about the Mutocracy government) in the future era will suffice instead.
     
  9. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    3. Innovators. As mentioned in post #1, I'm also going to be "taking the lid off" the number of units and buildings available in RoC-Unleashed! by adding rare and specialized units that require highly transient resources called "Innovators."

    I didn't want the number of extra units to be overwhelming. When there are too many available (RaR comes close to this), and there is just no way to build them all, it becomes frustrating to someone like me who wants everything. So I wanted these things to not be available to everyone all the time. Enter the Innovators.

    Innovators are individuals who had unique ideas and changed the status quo by coming up with something truly different. In Civ4 it sounds like Firaxis is going to be making more use of great leaders, such as Prophets, Tycoon, Scientists, etc. This is coming from a similar idea, where the Innovators are like great leaders. But instead of units, they will be resources.

    By "highly transient" I mean that they have an extremely high disappearance probability. I want there to be just enough time, once you get one of these, to start building a couple of units, and then it will be gone. So I'll probably max out the disappearance probability for Innovator resources.

    They will also be extremely rare, with usually only 2 per Innovator type in the whole game--and in some cases, perhaps 3 (see below). So getting one within your borders will be a real treat, and seeing one within your neighbor's borders will be a real motivation to go capture a city.

    There will be eight Innovator types, each with a distinct resource icon. In a separate thread, I've made a request for some of these graphics. I didn't include a request for the Beaker, which I need to ask for also.

    Here are the Innovator types and their icons. I have marked with an asterisk (*) the ones I need help getting graphics for.

    Type---------------Icon----------Tech**-------------Civ(s)***
    _________________________________________________________________
    Innovator---------Lighbulb*-------none---------------China, Egypt, Babylon
    Civic Innovator----Marble Pillar-----Code of Laws-------Greece, Persia
    Scholar/Artist-----Scroll-----------Feudalism-----------France, Arabia
    Mech Innovator---Gears*----------Printing Press-------Germany, Rome, England
    Naval Innovator---Anchor----------Naval Tactics-------Portugal, Spain, China
    Air Innovator------Feather*-------Humanism-----------France, Rome
    Space Innovator---Saturn*--------Space Flight--------Russia, America
    Mad Geneticist----Beaker*--------Genetic Engineering--England, America, Japan, Babylon
    _________________________________________________________________
    *Graphic icon not yet made/found
    **Tech that triggers the appearance of the resource
    ***Civ(s) that the resource will be placed nearest.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Innovators will only be able to appear on tiles that are terrestrial or terraformed (we don't want one to appear on Mars and get stuck there for 3/4 of the game!). So they will only be able to appear on Hills, Forest, Jungle, Marsh, and Floodplains tiles (which means Biopods will also get them when these become available, since the editor doesn't distinguish between regular and LM versions of terrain). I just realized that I had Hills tiles in space, so I will need to remove those.

    What will Innovators be used for?
    --------------------------------
    1. All the Wonders made by Firaxis and other creators, that have someone's name attached to it (like Newton's University) will require an Innovator of some sort to build.

    2. Also, units associated with a certain single inventor, like Leonardo Da Vinci, or "fantasy" units that were never even built, like the Steam Tank.

    3. Other specialized units that weren't widely used, like the Phalanx, Sycle-Wheeled Chariot, and V-2 Rocket, but aren't in the game as UUs.

    Innovations
    -----------
    Innovations, as I call the buildings and units that require Innovators, won't show up on the tech tree for the most part. Instead, they will be triggered almost entirely by resources. Leonardo's Tank, for example, won't show up on the Humanism tech. Instead, it will simply require the Mech. Innovator, whose appearance is triggered by Printing Press (just before Humanism).

    Using a resource like Coal or Uranium as a second required resource for an Innovation will give it a proper historical placement in the timeline. This will not always be done according to the material requirements of the unit, but rather will sometimes be done for purely historical placement purposes.

    So, for example, an Innovation that should appear in the early Industrial era might require Coal, even though in reality its material requirements do not include Coal at all. This is done to help keep the tech tree from getting clogged with too many units, especially ones that most civs will never even build.

    Barracks Add-Ons
    -----------------
    If I do use the Barracks Add-Ons concept, I will never make any BAOs for Innovations. I might go with Ancient conscription instead. But in either case, Innovations will never be given the "Draft" flag.

    *next post, a list of units and buildings requiring Innovators*
     
  10. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    This list of Innovations in RoC-Unleashed! will evolve as the mod becomes more refined. Probably the most glaring example of its incomplete state is the lack of future-era Innovations, which I haven't yet worked out completely.

    Resource Abbreviations
    ______________________
    AI Air Innovator
    Al Aluminum
    AM Antimatter
    CI Civil Innovator
    Co Coal
    ED Energy-Dampening Composites (EDG)
    FC Fusion Cells
    TA Toxic Agents
    Ho Horses
    In Innovator (generic)
    Ir Iron
    MC Mag Cells
    MG Mad Geneticist
    MI Mech Innovator
    NI Naval Innovator
    PC Power Cells
    Pl Plasma Cells
    Ru Rubber
    SA Scholar/Artist
    SC Superconductors
    Sl Silicon Chips
    SI Space Innovator
    SP Saltpeter
    Ti Titanium
    Ur Uranium
    ______________________



    Unit/Building---Graphic Artist---Required Resources---Link to Unit Thread
    _________________________________________________________________
    Ancient Era

    U: Barbarian Galley---Labmonkey---In---link
    ---or
    ---Pirate Galley---Kryten---In---link
    ---Hidden Nationality, 1.1.3
    U: Spearmaiden---embryodead---In---link
    ---Amazon, 1.2.1 +1 hp, upgrades to Pikeman
    U: Merchant Ship---Kryten---In---link
    ---faster than Galley, ups to Caravel, can't transport, low defense
    U: Priest---JimmyH---In---link
    ---able to convert, 1.0.1, ups to Prophet
    U: Prophet---MazterJo & Firaxis---In + Incense---link
    ---converting unit, 1.1.1
    U: Samoan Clubman---Kinboat---In---link
    ---"Champion", 2.1.1 with +1 hp, ups to Swordsman
    U: Tribal Guardian---Kindred72---In---link
    ---buff guy with pecks, ups to Spearman, 1.1.1 +1 hp
    U: Sickle Chariot---(none yet)---In + Ho---(no link)
    ---ups to Horseman, 1.1.2 +1 hp
    U: Amazon Rider---embryodead---In + Ho---link
    ---ups to Knight, 2.2.2
    U: Bronze Age Wargalley---Smoking mirror---In + Ir (Iron)---link
    ---Great Galleas of DyP
    ---Kublai-Khan Ship---aaglo---In, Ir---link
    ---Asian flavor(Junk?)
    ---Haida Canoe---aaglo---In + Ir---link
    ---Mesoamerican flavor (Alcalai?)
    U: Panarch's Legion---CamJH---In + Ir---link
    ---Heavy Swordsman, 3.2.1, ups to Colonial Infantry.
    U: Roman Archer---aaglo---In + Ir---link
    ---Armored Archer 1.2.1 +1 hp, ups to Crossbowman
    U: Macedonian Phalanx---Kryten---In + Ir---link
    ---Phalanx, 2.2.1 +1 hp, ups to Spearman
    ---Civilopedia for Phalangite by Bjornlo
    U: Auxilia Cavalry---BeBro---In + Ir + Ho---link
    ---Heavy Horseman, 3.2.2, ups to Knight
    W: Tzu's Art of War---Firaxis---In + Ir---(Civ3)
    W: Eratosthenes' Find---Hrafnkell---CI---link
    W: Plato's Republic---(not made yet)---CI---(no link)
    I: Roman Hospital---Ukas---CI---link
    ---allows city size 2, obsolete with Feudalism
    I: Academy---Ukas---CI---link
    ---Increases research
    ________________

    Medieval Era

    U: Fire Galley---SpencerH---SA---link
    ---2.1.4, light bombard 2.1.1
    U: Ranger---Kinboat---SA---link
    ---unwheeled version of Crossbowman
    U: Chu-Ko-Nu---Aluminum---SA---link
    ---Rapid-fire Crossbowman, 1.4.1
    U: Martial Artist---Kinboat---SA---link
    ---3.1.2 -1 hp, only available to Asian civs
    I: Monastery---Drift---SA---link
    ---obsolete with Enlightenment, +50% research, +25% shields
    U: LandsKnecht---Kinboat---SA + Ir---link
    ---Heavy swordsman, 4.1.1, ups to Colonial Infantry
    U: Legion of the Wall---CamJH---SA + In + Ir---link
    ---Halberdier, 4.3.1, ups to Fusilier
    U: Troubadour---Kinboat---SA + CI---link
    ---0.1.1, all terrain as roads, ups to Explorer
    W: Leaning Tower---AK47---SA + CI---link
    W: Copernicus Obs.---Firaxis---SA---(Civ3)
    W: Sistine Chapel---Firaxis---SA---(Civ3)
    ---requires Cathedral
    W: Marco Polo'Voyage-Kent'arka---In---link
    ---requires University
    W: Luther's Thesis---Rufus T. Firefly---SA---link
    ---requires Cathedral
    W: Holy Inquisition---Ukas---CI---link
    ---requires Cathedral
    W: Michelangelo's David-Yoda Power---SA---link
    ---requires Cathedral
    W: Dante's Divine Comedy---Rufus T. Firefly---SA + SP---link
    U: Fluyt---Orthanc---In + SP---link
    ---2.1.8, enslaves, ups to Privateer.
    U: Golden Hind War Galleon---aaglo---link
    ---3.3.15 bombard 3.1.1, ups to Frigate
    U: Man-at-Arms---Kinboat---In + SP + Ir---link
    ---2.5.1, ups to Rifleman
    U: Dwarven Organ Cannon---aaglo---In + SP + Ir---link
    ---6.1.2 (low bombard, high RoF), ups to Cannon.
    W: Colombo's Discovery---Rufus T. Firefly---In + SP---link
    W: Voltaire's Encyclopedia---Straczynski---SA + CI + NI---link
    I: Clockworks---???(DyP)---MI---(no link)
    W: Gutenberg Bible---???(DyP)---MI---(no link)
    ---Obsolete with Mass Production
    U: Da Vinci's Tank---aaglo---MI + SP---link
    U: Napoleonic Horse Artillery---BAP---MI + SP + Ho---link
    ---12.1.2 bombard, ups to Artillery
    U: Settler Wagon---Kryten---CI + MI + Ho---link
    ---Pop cost 3, ups to Motorized Settler
    W: Shakespeare's Theatre---Firaxis---SA + tech---(Civ3)
    ---requires Free Artistry
    U: Airship---embryodead---AI + SP---link
    ---ups to Zeppelin, range:5, bomb 6.0.2, Bomb/Recon/Rebase
    U: Pirate---Smoking Mirror---NI + SP---link
    ---Hidden nationality, 3.1.1, amphibious assault
    U: The Trident---Orthanc---NI + MI + SP---link
    ---5.6.12, bombard 6.1.2, ups to Ironclad
    U: Baode Luan---by aaglo---NI + MI + SP---link
    ---Chinese treasure ship, Asian flavor of Trident
    U: Corvette---Orthanc---NI + SP---link
    ---4.3.18, bombard 6.1.2, ups to ship of the Line
    U: 19th-century pirate frigate---aaglo---NI + CI + SP---link
    ---4.4.18, bombard 8.1.2, Enslaves, ups to Cruiser, has transport capacity of 2.
    W: Prince Henry's Seafaring School---Ukas---NI---link
    ---requires Harbor, produces Caravel every 15 turns, obsolete with Enlightenment
    W: Magellan's Voyage--Firaxis---NI + SP---(Civ3)
    ---requires Harbor
    W: Newton's University--Firaxis---NI + SA---(Civ3)
    W: Adam Smith--Firaxis---NI + CI---(Civ3)
    W: Clausewitz on War---Rufus T. Firefly---In + NI + SP---link
    ---Civilopedia in DyP
    _____________

    Industrial

    U: Victorian Secret Service---Kinboat---In + Co---link
    ---Hidden Nationality, ups to Sniper
    I: Workshop---(none yet)---In + Co---(no link)
    ---increases shields by 25%, obsolete with Mass Production
    U: Victorian Land Battleship---Hikaro Takayama---In + MI + Co---link
    ---tech-tied to Steel, high cost, ups to Tank
    U: City Gun---Hunter---MI + Ir + Co---link
    ---Ups to Dora Rail Gun. Immobile.
    U: Empire Steam Tank---aaglo--MI + Ir + Co---link
    ---ups to Tank
    W: Chopin Works---osakki---SA + Co---link
    W: Stradivarius---osakki---In + Co---link
    W: Freemason's Guild---by Ukas---CI + Co---link
    ---"Illuminati," obsolete with Marxism
    W: Lincoln Memorial---Rufus T. Firefly---CI + Co---link
    W: Edison's Workshop---???DyP---CI + MI + Co---(no link)
    ---might be tech-tied to Electricity
    U: Chilean Steam Frigate---wyrmshadow---NI + Co---link
    ---War Tiger Paddleship---aaglo---NI + Co---link
    ---Asian flavor of steam frigate
    U: Paddle-wheel Ironclad---aaglo---NI + Co + Ir---link
    ---Steam Tiger Ironclad---aaglo---NI + Co + Ir---link
    ---Asian flavir of Paddle-wheel Ironclad
    U: CSS Hunley---Wyrmshadow---NI + Co + Ir---link
    ---ups to submarine
    U: Captain Nemo's Nautilus---Wyrmshadow---Ir + NI + MI---link
    ---ups to submarine, high cost and stats
    W: Theory of Evolution---Firaxis---CI + Co---(Civ3)
    W: The Communist Manifesto---Straczynski---CI + Co---link
    U: War Balloon---Vuldacon---AI + Co---link
    ---ups to Zeppelin/Bomber
    U: FF Steam Powered Airship---Hikaro Takayama---AI + Co + MI---link
    ---Ups to Bomber
    U: 34-gun Paddlewheel Frigate---wyrmshadow---NA + Ru---link
    ---Ups to cruiser. Good defense.
    U: FF Hi-Tech Airship---Hikaro Takayama---AI + Ru + MI---link
    ---better than Zeppelin (rockets!), ups to Bomber
    U: Mortar---Cris2000---In + Ru---link
    ---Ups to TOW Infantry, low bombard, cheaper than artillery, decent stats.
    I: Chemist Lab---Nikox---In + Ru---link
    ---also in RaR, +50% research
    W: Picasso's Studio---Ukas---SA + Ru---link
    W: Freud's Psychoanalysis---Ukas---In + Ru---link
    W: Nuremberg Party Rallies---Ukas---CI + Ru---link
    ---Requires Fascism
    W: Maxim Machine Gun---Ukas---MI + Ru---link
    ---Either autoproduce Gatling Gun, or reduce upgrade cost until Tanks arrive
    U: Gas---Smoking Mirror---In + Oi---link
    ---(attach to Biplane or artillery animations for attack).
    U: MKIV---Kinboat---MI + Ru + Oi---link
    ---Ups to Tank
    U: Mobile Infantry---Smoking Mirror---In + Ru + Oi---link
    ---Ups to Mechanized Infantry
    U: Avro Autogyro---Wyrmshadow---AI + Oi---link
    ---ups to Attack Helicopter, low bombard
    U: FF Airship Mk II---Hikaro Takayama---AI + Oi + MI---link
    ---ups to bomber
    U: Turret---GoodWin---In + Oi---link
    ---ups to futuristic turret
    W: Henry Ford's Factory---Rufus T. Firefly--MI + Oi + Ru---link
    ---+50% production
    W: TV Invention---Bjornlo---In + Oi---link
    ---Icons by Bjornlo
    W: Kitty Hawk---Bjornlo---AI + Oi---link
    ---Icons by Bjornlo
    W: Maginot Line---Ukas---In + MI + Oi---link
    ---Grants walls or Barracks in all cities on Continent
    W: Einstein's Relativity---Ukas---SA + Oi---link
    ---Civilopedia in DyP
    U: Flamethrower---Firaxis---In + Oi---(Civ3)
    ---Ups to Modern Marine
    ---Civilopedia icon by Bjornlo
    U: V-1 Reprisal Weapon---Pablostuka---In + Al---link
    ---ups to Cruise Missile
    U: E-3 Sentry---pesoloco---AI + Al + Oi---link
    ---ups to U2
    U: B-17G---ripptide---AI + Al + Oi---link
    ---"Firebomber," with lower bomb strength but heavy ROF
    U: B-29 Superfortress---aaglo---AI + Al + MI---link
    ---Long-range bomber. Longer range and heavier bombs.
    U: ME262 A1---Bjornlo---AI + Al + MI---link
    ---ups to Jet Fighter, heavier attack strength than Fighter
    U: P-38 Lightning---Firaxis---AI + Al + Oi---(Civ3)
    ---"Fighter-Bomber," ups to Jet Fighter, heavier bombard than Fighter
    U: Russian JS-3---ripptide---In + Al + Oi---link
    ---Heavy Tank (1 higher hp, 1 higher def)
    U: Russian SMK Superheavy tank---ripptide---MI + Al + Oi---link
    ---+2 hp, +1 Attack & Def
    U: JSU-152 Assault Gun---ripptide---In + Al + Oi---link
    ---Tank with bombard ability. Ups to Modern Tank.
    U: P-61 Black Widow---ripptide---AI + Oi + Al---link
    ---Heavy fighter (ups to Jet Fighter) higher hp, higher def
    U: Russian BA-10 Armoured Car---ripptide---In + Oi + Al---link
    ---Heavier armored car, higher hp, attack; ups to Mechanized Infantry
    U: Bazooka---LouLong---In + Al---link
    ---Bazooka Gunner civilopedia icon by Bjornlo:
    ---Ups to TOW Infantry
    W: Peenemünde V 2 Lab---Rufus T.Firefly---MI + In + Al---link
    U: V-2 (A-4) Rocket by Krayzeenbk: link
    ---autoproduced by Peenemunde Lab, ups to Cruise Missile
    W: Disneyland---???(DyP)---CI + Al---(no link)
     
  11. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    Innovations Continued:

    Modern Era

    U: Atomic Device---The TMT---Ur + SA---link
    ---No aluminum, range of 1--basically a suicide weapon.
    U: Tomb Raider---Kindred72---In + Sl---link
    ---Lara Croft, all terrain as roads, movement 1, stealth attacks.
    U: Bond---Kinboat---MI + Sl---link
    ---Hidden Nationality, stealth attacks.
    U: M113 Adats---ripptide---MI + Sl + Oi---link
    ---Tank with light bombard, radar
    U: Zsu 23/4---ripptide---MI + Sl + Oi---link
    ---heavily armored AA (tanklike)
    U: Napalm Bomb---pesoloco---In + Sl + Oi---link
    ---Tactical missile, add to Cruise Missile graphics
    U: Scud Launcher---Dark Sheer---In + Al + TA---link
    ---tech-tied. Nuke effect (biological/chemical attack).
    U: Mi-24 Hind D---ripptide---AI + Sl + Oi---link
    ---Russian heavy attack helicopter (heavier attack)
    U: Rockwell B1B Lancer---shammy---AI + Sl + Oi---link
    ---ups from B-52 and Heavy Bomber
    U: Su-25 Frogfoot---ripptide---AI + Sl + Oi---link
    ---Modern Russian ground attack fighter (higher ROF)
    U: Pentagenesis: Warcarrier---Neomega---NI + Ur + Sl---link
    ---double deck carrier, higher defense, AA, and transport capacity
    U: Modern Legion---Kinboat---In + Oi + Ti---link
    ---Armored Infantry: includes paradrop
    U: Blended Wing Body Cargoplane by wyrmshadow---AI + Ti + Oi---link
    ______________

    Future Era

    U: Modern Soldier---Kinboat---In + Ti---link
    U: Baneblade Super-heavy Tank---muffins---MI + Ti + Oi---link
    U: Tesla Tank---Hikaro Takayama---In + SC + Sl---link
    U: Hover Tank---Level---In + SC + PC---link
    U: Pentagenesis JumpRAV---Neomega---MI + SC + PC---link
    U: Shadow Infantry---Piernik---In + SC---link
    U: Shadowsword Super Heavy Tank---muffins---MI + SC + Sl---link
    ---Maybe a regular unit?
    U: Prometheus class super carrier---Wyrmshadow---NI + MI + SC---link
    U: Daedalus class assault carrier---Wyrmshadow---NI + MI + SC---link
    ---able to carry superlarge units (non-foot)
    ---most transports will be limited to foot units
    ---most land units will be labeled as foot, except Mechas
    U: Deathglider---bhiita---AI + SC + Ti---link
    ---ups from stealth
    U: F-302---bhiita---AI + SC + PC---link
    ---SG-1 unit. upgrade from advanced fighter, also stealthy
    U: 3 Anti-grav tanks---The Great Apple---In + MC + PC---link
    U: Gravity Armor---Piernik---In + MC + Pl---link
    U: Star Wars Unit: YT-2400---Pleb---SI + AM---link
    ---Space freighter, very fast
    U: Plasma Russ---muffins---MI + Pl + Ti---link
    ---Very heavy artillery, might make it a regular unit
    U: Star Wars: Dark Trooper---CivGeneral---In + PC + ED---link
    U: Vampire Plane---Piernik---AI + Pl + ED---link
    U: Star Wars AT-AT Walker---TheMorpheus---MI + Pl + ED---link
    ---post#500; requires Technocracy govt
    U: Victory Class Star Destroyer---TheMorpheus---SI + FC + Pl---link
    ---carrier
    U: Tau Firewarrior---Smoking mirror---In + ED + Pl---link
    ---lacks icons and sounds
    U: Death Star---Pleb---MI + SI + AM---link
    ---Battlestation, Technocracy
    U: Deathclaw---screenstorm---MG + TA + Ur---link
    U: Pipboy2000---screenstorm---MG + SC + Ti---link
    U: Clone trooper---Pleb---MG + Ti + PC---link
    U: Heavy stormtrooper---pleb---MG + ED + Pl---link
    U: Zombie---embryodead---MG + TA---link
    U: Fleshhound---embryodead---MG + Ur---link
    U: Squiggoth---The Great Apple---MG + Elephants + Ti---link

    More to come as production advances...
     
  12. Goldflash

    Goldflash Grumpy Old Man

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    I'm not sure Rhye appreciate you screwing with his mod. Do you have permission? If you did something like this to my mod, I'd gut you.
     
  13. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    I haven't checked with him directly; I was under the impression that he is less available these days. I did check with V. Soma about making a mod of his variation on RoCX (Clash of Empires). It isn't the same thing as asking Rhye, so I will check with him. Thanks.

    It sounds, Goldflash, like you may have a personal objection. I don't know if it has anything to do with me using WH40K units in this mod. In the past I've seen you get a wee bit territorial about people making mods with those units.

    My main purpose is to give RoCX a future era and a chance at colonizing the solar system. Star Wars, WH40K, and other "franchised" units don't have to be a part of it--that is negotiable. What I absolutely will hang onto is the use of space units. There are plenty of "generic" ones out there. I really can't see why Rhye would have a problem with a future era, but that is for him to decide. If there is a problem, I will continue making the mod for my own use, since I've already put a lot of work into it and really look forward to playing it.
     
  14. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    He's not screwing with Rhye's mod - he's making a new one using Rhye's work as a basis. I don't see what's wrong with that!
     
  15. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

    Joined:
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    hello everybody. I'm very busy these days but I still look at my user control panel every day. So I'm still here for anybody.

    I have nothing against his work, being an "unofficial" version.
    Just give credit to what's being used from RoCX.
    I'll even advertise it on the site if you want. ;)
     
  16. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Your map is a very unique idea.

    I recommend to delete some modern unit in the process of shrinking industrial and modern eras. Bring it back to normal, with only one destroyer, no biplanes, etc.

    By the way, don't be too confident about people making those icons on request. Be prepared to draw them yourself...
     
  17. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    Thank you, Rhye! I will start a new thread referencing this one, but most especially making more extensive references to the existing RoC and RoCX work that I'm basing this on.
     
  18. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    you already have this one, don't you?
    i think you should start a new thread only when you have a finished full beta
     
  19. Camber

    Camber Resident Family Therapist

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    LOL! Okay. Well, I was hoping I wouldn't have to, but your PM gave me the impression that you wanted me to start a new thread right away. Silly me! I can be slow to understand people correctly sometimes :blush: Okay, then I shall carry on.
     
  20. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    that's because at that time I hadn't seen this thread.
     

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