Romans in China

[ZultanofZex]

Another thread was getting raped by this topic, so I started a new thread, devouted to Romans in China, and Chinese in Rome.

Found this thing, from Liang-Shu

In the ninth year of the Yen-hsi period of Huan-ti of the Han dynasty [166 C.E.] the king of Ta-ts'in, An-tun [Marcus Aurelius Antoninus], sent an embassy with tribute from the frontier of Jih-nan [Annam]

 

[ZultanofZex]

found another trace in an extract from Histoires des Huns, according to this a Roman embassy was sent to china during the reign on Vou-ti, and another, later, during the reign of Yan-hi, another embassy, the one from marc Aurelius, arrived in Han territory.

Also, the Chinese had a presence at the Caspian sea, a sea that, although not within the Roman Empire, was often visited by Roman traders and explorers. The entire area was relativly well known, especially after the preparations of the aborted Roman wars against the Roxolani in this area during Nero.

 

[ZultanofZex]

And this is from the project Gutenberg, they usually have pretty well researced sources before they print stuff,

China, in the days when her civilization towered above that of most countries on the globe, and when her strength commanded the respect of all nations, great and small, was quite accustomed to receive embassies from foreign parts; the first recorded instance being that of "An-tun" = Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, which reached China in A.D. 166. But because the tribute offered in this case contained no jewels, consisting merely of ivory, rhinoceros-horn, tortoise-shell, etc., which had been picked up in Annam, some have regarded it merely as a trading enterprise, and not really an embassy from the Roman Emperor; Chinese writers, on the other hand, suggest that the envoys sold the valuable jewels and bought a trumpery collection of tribute articles on the journey.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I've read of that one - most experts think it's just a bunch of Roman traders taking up diplomatic credentials to trade. The Chinese tributary system was one way for the foreigners to get Chinese products.

Can you imagine an official embassy fr Rome, bringing tribute to China, acknowledging China as the paramount empire on Earth? Of all peoples, the Romans would have the most to argue with that.

BTW, Roman coin and glass had been found in Cambodia too.

 

[ZultanofZex]

I don't argue that Rome and the Han dynasty was in any way close, or had any kind of political cooperation.

However, I do believe that they were aware of each other, and that traders and emessaries were, at times, exchanged. The dwarves given to Marcus Aurelis is one such tale.

I don't know enough of Han history to say how they would have reacted, but I know that the Romans were quite abale to recognise another civilzation when they saw one. Modern political politeness comes, after all, from roman and Sassanid relations. The Romans also aknowledged the parthians and the king of Armenia (a Parthian) was indeed crowned by both the king of parthia and the Emperor.

 

[Xen]

Yep, If there was going to one single empire on earth who would aknowledge no superior, it would be Rome the only way you would recieve "tribute" was if you happend to have captured an emperor (and even then there was no garuntee...) other wise you would just have to trade to recieve Roman gold, and goods

This and the fact that there are NO records, or even the slightest hint of a such an expedition (and belive, me if somthing like that happend there would have been, and a lot of it) leads me to believ that at best it was merchants from a Roman area, at worst, the interpretation of it is wrong, and it is from another country altogether

I also have my doubts as ZultanofZex presents no evedence of a militar expedition or escourt, which would have been Needed, considering that Rome happend to be on not very friendlly terms with some of those eastern empires, not to mention it was custumary, as a military escourt could... analyze the potential threat of a forigen nation (in which case china seems to have not registerd on the threat list at all, somthing which I highlly doubt... after all, it was ONLY the second largest empire in the world at that time...ofcoarse it would be considerd no threat to Rome when even its allies were considerd possibly enimies...

Now dont get me wrong, the two empires knew of each other, that much is for sure, but its doubtful if there was any ever direct links to the two, and if there was I can guarantee that there was no tribute coming from Rome, and I'm pretty sure Rome never sent any military expeditions that far, and the military, as hinted before, was the Roman foriegn policy, if you had goods to trade, and were peaceful then fine, trade, but that still didnt mean Rome wasnt wary of you...

 

[Benderino]

Wasn't there much trading along the Silk Road at the time?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Benderino
Wasn't there much trading along the Silk Road at the time?

Yes, with the Parthians as middlemen. I don't think the Chinese interacted with the Romans directly.

It was mostly one-directional; Chinese silk going to the West. Little of what Rome had to offer interest the Chinese... like Syrian glass, but nothing of the fanatical scale of the appeal of silk in the Roman Empire.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Xen
Yep, If there was going to one single empire on earth who would aknowledge no superior, it would be Rome

The Chinese never acknowledged another nation as an equal. This is as a fact.

(in which case china seems to have not registerd on the threat list at all, somthing which I highlly doubt... after all, it was ONLY the second largest empire in the world at that time...ofcoarse it would be considerd no threat to Rome when even its allies were considerd possibly enimies...

Second largest? The Han empire was, at the very least, as large as the Roman one, and at least as populous.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I've previously posted some fascinating links about this topic here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1010876#post1010876



The Roman general Crassus was defeated at Carhhae by the Parthians. Some of the defeated soldiers ended up in China as slaves. That is my earliest anecdote fo the topic.

BTW, does anyone know about China's attempts to steal Glass Technology from the Romans. I read about the Glass-Silk wars in Count Belisarius, but that's as far as I've read on the topic.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by XIII
The Chinese never acknowledged another nation as an equal. This is as a fact.

Second largest? The Han empire was, at the very least, as large as the Roman one, and at least as populous.

Ahhh but if I used China as the example.... well I'm Roman and I dont feel like having an equal today

Are you counting Rome before or after the Trajan expamsions, therer is a very large territorial diffence...


_Calgacus do you have any proof? I've always heard that the Parthians took no prisoners in that fool Crassus' campaign...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by calgacus
The Roman general Crassus was defeated at Carhhae by the Parthians. Some of the defeated soldiers ended up in China as slaves. That is my earliest anecdote fo the topic.

Yeah, there're records of that in Imperial Chinese records too. The Han soldiers who marched into Central Asia found a Parthian frontier post with 'strange' soldiers. These surrendered and joined the Han.

China didn't practise slavery - they're settled as freemen military colonists somewhere in NW China. Chinese records said something of their 'fish-scale' armor formation - you know, that classic Roman legion manoevur.

BTW, does anyone know about China's attempts to steal Glass Technology from the Romans. I read about the Glass-Silk wars in Count Belisarius, but that's as far as I've read on the topic.

Never heard of it.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by XIII
Yeah, there're records of that in Imperial Chinese records too. The Han soldiers who marched into Central Asia found a Parthian frontier post with 'strange' soldiers. These surrendered and joined the Han. China didn't practise slavery- they're settled as freemen military colonists somewhere in NW China. Chinese records said something of their 'fish-scale' armor formation - you know, that classic Roman legion manoevur.

Do you have the name of the records in question?

Originally posted by XIII

China didn't practise slavery

Didn't know that.

Originally posted by XIII
Never heard of it.

I know glass was a western invention, and there is much Roman glass that ended up in China. Robert Graves (and this is historical fiction) said that the Chinese got the secret through the same nomads who helped deliver the secret of silk to the Romans. It would be interesting to know when exactly the Chinese did manage to obtain the secret of glass-making.

I can quote this from a book called Glassmakers

An emperor of China, intrigued by the sparkling imitation jades and colorful eye-beads which had been brought into China for centuries by Western traders, upon learning that the exotic artifacts were man-made in a furnace, requested that this strange material be produced within his realm. A glassmaking facility was obligingly built and operated by some foreigners to the great delight of the Chinese court. Thus, it was said, was glassmaking introduced into China.

There are numerous Chinese literary works concerning this event, among which the most commonly quoted version is a historical work of the fifth century, the Pei-shih, in which it is related that, during the reign of Emperor T’ai Wu, traders from the West came to his capital and stated that they could produce stones of any color for the emperor by melting together certain minerals. They were given leave to obtain the minerals from the near-by hills. They did so and were successful in producing glassware even superior to that which had previously arrived from the West.

The story is not without merit, reported the scholar Herada Yo****o in his study, Ancient Glass in the History of Cultural Exchange, The tradition has it that certain Western traders boasted that they could produce liu-li, "glass," in five colors, that is, they could duplicate five different precious stones by fusing together locally available minerals, and that, challenged to do so, they proceeded to perform the process so perfectly that the resultant gems were indeed of far greater beauty than was the imported variety...

 

[John Bull]

This from the 'Everyman's Classical Atlas' of 1961:

From the Everyman's Classical Atlas, 1961
From the Chinese Annals it is known that an able general, Pan Ch'ao, had re-opened the Tarim silk roads, and sent an envoy to Babylonia, who picked up a vague notion of Ta-ts'in (the Roman Empire, especially Syria). Modern explorers of the silk-roads like Sir Aurel Stein have found much evidence of a strange mingling of influences, including a classical Athena on an Indian seal east of Khotan.The agents knew Stone Tower (Daraut-kurgan?) near 'the starting-point of traders for Sera the capital' (Irkeshtam, where the Alai trough leads to Kashgar?). Sera is no doubt Si-an, near the bend of the Yellow River.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Why is this thread stuck?

And why is this post before Pawpaw's?

Weird

 

[CruddyLeper]

Another commodity that passed up the Silk road was pepper.

A recent find of a gold pepper pot in East Anglia (about 420AD), just when the Romans were pulling ou) suggests pepper was a highly valued luxury.

I have to admit though, it came from India, not China.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Sera is no doubt Si-an, near the bend of the Yellow River.

At that time, Xi'an was still known as Chang'an, and would still be known as Chang'an for at least more than a thousand years hence.

 

[allhailIndia]

The other possible connection could be the throught the Pandyans of South India who had had trading links with both the Romans and Chinese, as far back as 50 A.D.

 

[PolishAssassin]

Originally posted by XIII

China didn't practise slavery -

nope never have. since their war with the Huns in 200 BC theyve always treated POWs with respect. their government forbid brutality against captives. hell, one Hun captive even became the second highest official in the imperial court! theyve always used a "brainwashing" technique to get POWs to convert to the Chinese way of life......

 

[PolishAssassin]

how is pawpaw at 2010????????