Rubber, and War

[vorlon_mi]

Playing as the Byzantines, Regent, and drew a Pangaea map when I asked for a random map. I'm having trouble running CivAssist II under Win7, so I'm asking for some help here.

1. Where are the rubber sites? I can't tell if there are some located *under* AI cities. I just launched a bloody war against the Inca to take their source of rubber, but I'd like to know if there are others within reach.

2. War weariness is killing my economy, due in part to a "bright idea" I had that backfired on me, big time. I'm trying to decide whether to:
a) swing south, and take some cities that the Inca conquered in the former Iroquois peninsula.
b) swing west, and raze one or more Inca core cities to cripple them permanently.
c) pay for peace, get my science rate back up, and go back to pursuing a space victory like I had planned in the early game.

I can discuss my tactical and diplomatic errors (of which there were many) in a later post.

 

[Elephantium]

If you hit CTRL-SHIFT-N, you can select "clean map" options. CTRL-SHIFT-M will toggle between normal and clean map modes. Set it to hide cities and units, and you'll be able to see all the resource sites.

Edit: I looked at your save. I have a few questions.

1. Why are you building Battleships? You don't need any naval power for this map.
2. You're building lots of TOW Infantry and only one Tank. How come? Tanks will do a lot more to help you win this war than TOWs.
3. Why are so many cities on Wealth? You could be building Artillery and Settlers in those cities.

I went through your empire and did some MM. You still have a lot of places where some Worker tasks would be helpful -- mining spots in your core and irrigating spots on the far peninsula.

n.b. I just realized that Cattaraugus is about to riot, so you'll want to deal with that if you play on from this save

 

[vorlon_mi]

If you hit CTRL-SHIFT-N, you can select "clean map" options. CTRL-SHIFT-M will toggle between normal and clean map modes. Set it to hide cities and units, and you'll be able to see all the resource sites.

Edit: I looked at your save. I have a few questions.

1. Why are you building Battleships? You don't need any naval power for this map.
2. You're building lots of TOW Infantry and only one Tank. How come? Tanks will do a lot more to help you win this war than TOWs.
3. Why are so many cities on Wealth? You could be building Artillery and Settlers in those cities.

I went through your empire and did some MM. You still have a lot of places where some Worker tasks would be helpful -- mining spots in your core and irrigating spots on the far peninsula.

n.b. I just realized that Cattaraugus is about to riot, so you'll want to deal with that if you play on from this save

1. I wanted one or two, for bombardment and fleet escort if I perform another D-day style invasion at the other end of the continent. Since I seem to be the dominant sea power at the moment, I should probably switch to offensive land units.

2. Tanks require rubber, and TOW do not. I had a trade deal with the Inca for one of their spare sources of rubber, and queued up some tank builds. They wouldn't renew the deal, but the build that was started, was able to continue. I'm planning to switch back to tanks once my rubber is connected to the core.

3. I'll check that. Once I get to the modern age, I usually set cities which are making 3 shields per turn or fewer to wealth. If there are some that should be still producing, I'll go back and get 'em working.

 

[Quintillus]

Actually, I don't think war weariness is that big of a problem here. You've got 50% luxury tax, but you don't actually need that. Put it at 0%, hire a few clowns, put science at 50%, and you've got decent science going again. Or 10%, science at 50%, and a slight defecit. You're going well beyond what you need in luxury taxes. As the war drags on, it might get worse... but for now it's not bad. It does help that you have 7 luxuries, too.

It also looks like you still have rubber (connected via the port at Rubber), so tanks should be rolling off line soon.

Assessing the war situation, you could cripple the Inca in a couple ways. The easy way is to swing south and take Oka, and with it their oil. Not as devastating as taking their rubber, but a lot quicker (Vitcos, where their rubber is, would require a naval invasion). However, I think a better option might be taking Cuzco and its wonders. Sun Tzu's, J.S. Bachs, and The Pyramids are all nice, all three at once is all the better. Especially the first two could be useful if a war with the real rival, the Ottomans, comes to be. This also has the potential advantage of allowing the Inca some decent units to fight the Ottomans with if they get invaded - whether that's worth it depends on if you plan to conquer them before the Ottomans or not.

It looks like the Ottomans are up you in technology by at least Fission plus a bunch of older techs, so I wouldn't let the war drag on too long lest war weariness increases, you wear yourself down against the Inca, and they threaten a space race victory. But Cuzco at least appears worth it, and possibly more depending on how the war goes and how quickly tanks get to the front.

 

[bigFRANK]

Havent looked at the save but if you can cap 3 wonders in one that has to be a key target, obviously you want the rubber maybe make that part of the post war settlement?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Can you get resources/luxes as part of a peace deal? I always thought you can't negotiate resources/luxes unless you have a valid trade route and the game considers being at war not a valid route.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Actually, I don't think war weariness is that big of a problem here. You've got 50% luxury tax, but you don't actually need that. Put it at 0%, hire a few clowns, put science at 50%, and you've got decent science going again. Or 10%, science at 50%, and a slight defecit. You're going well beyond what you need in luxury taxes. As the war drags on, it might get worse... but for now it's not bad. It does help that you have 7 luxuries, too.

It also looks like you still have rubber (connected via the port at Rubber), so tanks should be rolling off line soon.

Assessing the war situation, you could cripple the Inca in a couple ways. The easy way is to swing south and take Oka, and with it their oil. Not as devastating as taking their rubber, but a lot quicker (Vitcos, where their rubber is, would require a naval invasion). However, I think a better option might be taking Cuzco and its wonders. Sun Tzu's, J.S. Bachs, and The Pyramids are all nice, all three at once is all the better. Especially the first two could be useful if a war with the real rival, the Ottomans, comes to be. This also has the potential advantage of allowing the Inca some decent units to fight the Ottomans with if they get invaded - whether that's worth it depends on if you plan to conquer them before the Ottomans or not.

It looks like the Ottomans are up you in technology by at least Fission plus a bunch of older techs, so I wouldn't let the war drag on too long lest war weariness increases, you wear yourself down against the Inca, and they threaten a space race victory. But Cuzco at least appears worth it, and possibly more depending on how the war goes and how quickly tanks get to the front.

I started with my lux rate at 10% when the war started, and cranked it up by 10% as more and more cities started rioting. The war weariness got pretty severe, since I tried to be clever in my tactics, and it backfired. Yes, I realized that rubber (from my invasion town, called "Rubber") was finally hooked up. I landed some troops, founded the city, disbanded an old unit and cash-rushed the harbor. Rubber was still not hooked up, until the cultural radius increased a bit (I later rushed a library, since I'm scientific). Builds were switched to tanks straightaway.

Learn-from-my-fail in war weariness: When I do an invasion, the AI always counter-punch with an invasion somewhere else on my border, where I have a slightly weaker defense. Since I had such a long border with the Inca, I couldn't reinforce everywhere. So, I thought... I'll take a city and pull all the defenders out. Put them in the mountains on the next tile, and wait for the Inca to take the bait. My troops will come down from the mountains with a strong def bonus, and crush his counterattack.

It worked ... at first. But they had more troops, and attacked that city again. I hadn't sufficiently stomped on his forces; more kept coming, and I had concentrated more forces in my invasion to get the rubber. Each time I lost a city (including the first one), war weariness leapt upwards. Even though I kept getting them back, the people got angrier and angrier.

I should have taken the advice here about conquering Cuzco. I found that I could get peace with the Inca for about 40 gold, and reset my economy to peacetime values (10% lux, 50-60% science), so I stopped the war before crushing the Inca. Both the Ottomans and Aztecs continued to bash them; I built tanks and tried to catch up in science.

You're right; the Ottomans are the biggest threat as the game enters the 20th century. They got SETI, and beat me to Hoover by a couple of turns. I've successfully run MPPs with them over the last 800 years, and they helped me dogpile the Iroquois and the Americans (now both dead). Did I chicken out? Probably. I'm hoping that lots of science farms and core cities with factories and hydro plants will let me beat them to space. The Aztecs have a bunch of territory, but are weaker militarily. I'm building the UN, so I can *not* schedule votes. The Aztecs hate me more than the Ottomans, and I can't count on their votes.

 

[Quintillus]

Hmmm... sounds like a predicament. I'd consider the following options:

• If the Ottomans or Aztecs are threatening to take Cuzco, consider declaring on the Inca to take if first.
• It might be worth working towards Modern Armor to get it before the Ottomans, and thus perhaps attack them with a Modern Armor advantage. Or, I suppose you could go the nuclear route, although that could of course get ugly if they are right on your tail.
• Some precision strikes against the Ottomans could also work quite well. In particular, I'd consider striking against their aluminium cities - Baltimore and Seattle, possibly (depending on border expansions) Tulúm, and Buffalo (likely via Kirklari). Baltimore and Seattle could be razed by Marines, and the others (with current borders) could be razed by Modern Armors that you drop off outside the city before declaring war. If the Ottomans now have Kahnewake, you could take it similarly. This would prevent them both from getting the spaceship, and from building modern armors. You wouldn't need to keep the cities to disrupt the Ottomans for a significant length of time.
• A similar uranium strike (if feasible) would deny them SS Fuel Cells and nukes. Denying them rubber looks unlikely. You could likely nuke their one source (it's in the middle of three cities, so razing isn't a viable option, though repeatedly bombarding from Battleships might work OK with carrier and fighter support to fend off enemy bombers), but they could probably afford to buy one of the Aztecs' extra supplies, so you'd have to take their out, too.
• Of course, going for the histographic win might also be possible. Although if the Ottomans have continued to snap up cities, they might be gaining on you right now, you could probably stay ahead with some luxury tax and peace - assuming they aren't going to win through the space race.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Here's the latest save.

I like your ideas about precision strikes, in an effort to slow down the Ottomans.

I'm thinking about 3 options.

1. Berserker. Forget about space race, and build lots of tanks. Tech until I get to synthetic fibers, then turn down the science and use the cash to upgrade to modern armor. Stage a tactical invasion of one of the Ottomans's aluminum cities, but send a big stack of doom at the closest cities, razing as I go. Enlist the Aztec's help, to distract the Ottomans, and deliver a beat-down until I win by histographic.

2. False friend. Get an MPP with the Ottomans (i've had one twice before), and then pick a fight with the Aztecs. But it's a phony war; I don't actually invade the Aztecs, I just repel their incursions with my current crop of tanks (and upgrades to MA). Every shield that Osman spends to fight the Aztecs is a shield he's *not* using to build spaceship parts, and I work to win by space while he's distracted.

3. Duck and cover. According to the military advisor, I'm stronger than the Aztecs but weaker than the Ottomans at present. The Aztecs and Ottomans have fought before, so I think they're probably furious with each other. I continue to build some units and tech towards space, and Osman will decide that Monty is an easier target. They share a long, sloppy border and invading Monty's core will be easier than invading mine.

 

[Quintillus]

There are opportunities here.

1. Go attack the Aztecs and take Cuzco! Yeah, they might be a foil for the Ottomans, but that's 3 wonders just waiting to be captured! Smith's and Sun Tzu's alone would be worth it, together with the Pyramids as icing, and Cuzco even being a size 2 city for the time... it should be calling your tanks like a magnet calls iron!

2. It appears that the Ottomans' only source of Gems is the two colonies near Oil Springs that you could poach with a settler. Might as well. I'd settle the gems southwest of Boston, too. And since the city probably would fall in a war, I'd leave them disconnected on purpose so that even when the Ottomans take the city, they don't have the gems right away.

3. I'd consider relocating your capital. Right now you have 49.8% corruption of your income, which is rather high, and your forbidden palace in Adrianople is right next to your palace. Leader-rushing a new palace somewhere further from Adrianople, and ideally near a bunch of potentially productive cities, would be ideal. Another alternative is disbanding Constantinople. This would move your capital to your largest city, but as you have a bunch of size 12 cities, I'm not sure which one it would be, and it might be Ancyra, which wouldn't really be an improvement. Rushing a hospital in the desired city to get it to size 13 should guarantee the new capital's location (maybe NeoTikal or NeoCopan?). Constantinople has no active wonders, so after you move all the ships outside of the city, all you'd really lose is having to rebuild the Military Academy and some shield production, some of which Yamama could pick up in the meantime. I think with a palace move you might be able to surpass the Ottomans in production, and would also see a noticeable post-corruption income increase.

4. I'm not sure it's the greatest idea to build The Manhattan Project right now. The Ottomans have Sateillites, so as soon as it's build, they can start building ICBMs; you can't (I'm surprised they aren't building it). The exception is that it might be worthwhile as a prebuild for The Internet.

I think militarily, any of your 3 options are workable. Especially if you choose 2 or 3 though, I'd upgrade your obsolete units (like the 10 Cavalry) to Mech Infs, to deepen your defences against the Ottomans. I'd also replace the conscripts with veteran mech infs or tanks, and build up to the forcelimits. The Ottomans might have a fairly strong initial invasion if they choose to declare war.

My main concern would be keeping an eye on their space race. It might be worth planting a spy to keep an eye on that, although it's risky since they're furious - they might declare war if it fails. So it's probably not worth it until you have Synthetic Fibers researched.

 

[vorlon_mi]

1. Yes, I like the idea of taking Cuzco from the Aztecs.

2. I wondered about the gems colonies. That's a good idea also.

3. Adrianople was not my first choice for the FP. I lost the race for a wonder (Copes, IIRC) and didn't want the shields to go to waste, so I built the FP there. It's been a decent producer, but the overall impact on the empire is lessened because it is so close to the capital. Constantinople was a great settler producer in the ancient age, but that's less important now. I like the idea of building one hospital, so that I have one large city as a target for the palace.

4. Manhattan is a prebuild for the first spaceship part, once Apollo finishes. I don't intend to finish it.

 

[CKS]

Use CivAssist II to see where the palace will jump to. You can stuff your desired target city with units to help make it the choice, too. It doesn't just go to the biggest city.

 

[bluebox]

Use CivAssist II to see where the palace will jump to. You can stuff your desired target city with units to help make it the choice, too. It doesn't just go to the biggest city.

Yes, CA II can help with that, but as he said

... I'm having trouble running CivAssist II under Win7, so I'm asking for some help here.

 

[vorlon_mi]

There are opportunities here.

1. Go attack the Aztecs and take Cuzco! Yeah, they might be a foil for the Ottomans, but that's 3 wonders just waiting to be captured! Smith's and Sun Tzu's alone would be worth it, together with the Pyramids as icing, and Cuzco even being a size 2 city for the time... it should be calling your tanks like a magnet calls iron!
... snip, snip ...
I think militarily, any of your 3 options are workable. Especially if you choose 2 or 3 though, I'd upgrade your obsolete units (like the 10 Cavalry) to Mech Infs, to deepen your defences against the Ottomans. I'd also replace the conscripts with veteran mech infs or tanks, and build up to the forcelimits. The Ottomans might have a fairly strong initial invasion if they choose to declare war.

My main concern would be keeping an eye on their space race. It might be worth planting a spy to keep an eye on that, although it's risky since they're furious - they might declare war if it fails. So it's probably not worth it until you have Synthetic Fibers researched.

Finally finished this game (alas, too many interruptions from RL). I chose option 2, the "False Friend" option; I didn't relocate my capital. I took Cuzco on the first turn, and another Aztec city that turn before even contacting the Ottomans. They agreed to an alliance against the Aztecs for a tech, and off we went.

I launched a small d-day invasion into the Aztec core, and grabbed 2 luxuries that I didn't have. I did succeed in planting a spy with the Ottomans, while the alliance was still in effect. Took about 5 tries before it succeeded; I kept plying the Ottomans with 1 gpt gifts every 2 or 3 turns, to create a nice ladder of beneficial trades.

The Ottomans eventually wiped out the Aztecs (no surprise), but never built a single spaceship part . I self-teched to the end, built all 10 parts, and launched in the year 2000. I'm not sure why they didn't even *start* building the spaceship; they stayed in Fascism for much of the war, perhaps that had something to do with it. In my other production cities, that weren't making spaceship parts or prebuilds for them, I kept pumping out Modern Armors. The Ottomans had 130 or so Mech Inf, so yes, their initial invasion would have been pretty devastating, if it had ever occurred.

In the end, I found it a little ironic. The Byzantines and Ottomans -- both from Turkey -- were the last two tribes left, ruling the world between them.

 

[MysteryX]

The Ottomans eventually wiped out the Aztecs (no surprise), but never built a single spaceship part . I self-teched to the end, built all 10 parts, and launched in the year 2000. I'm not sure why they didn't even *start* building the spaceship; they stayed in Fascism for much of the war, perhaps that had something to do with it.

Is it possible to build spaceship parts when mobilized for war?

 

[vorlon_mi]

Is it possible to build spaceship parts when mobilized for war?

Good point... I'm not sure that I would be able to tell whether Osman was in "mobilization" or not. But I think you're right -- if he were mobilized, he couldn't build the parts, or the Apollo program.

IIRC, mobilization ends when peace is declared, or the war ends. The Azteks were defeated about ten or twelve turns before I finished my last spaceship part. If he had built Apollo before I convinced him to declare on them, he would have been able to start a part or two. But my spy always reported 0 completed, 0 in progress.