Running Marathon (pun intended)

[lymond]

I normally play Epic speed except for certain GOTMs and other series that run normal. Epic had definitely been my preferred speed as I think it's paced well. Normal is okay but things go by too fast as far as warfare. Marathon has started to interest me lately after reading several post here about it. One of my main issues with CIV is the inability to enjoy a certain era of warfare for a longer period (especially at the advantage). I'm not that fond of warfare in ages greater than Renaissance. Actually, I hope to see the CIV provide options to set up a game to either occur in a era or go from like Ancient to Medieval with it's own set of VCs. Anyway, I digress.

I'm interested in a few pointers on playing Marathon. My understanding is that it's generally a bit easier, although I'm not necessarily concerned about that. How does this effect the game at say levels above Prince? (the level I currently beat)

I've come to the assumption that a plethora of workers on Marathon is extremely advantageous, whether built or captured. Workers are always important, but it seems that having massive stacks of workers are great at marathon. Is this true.

Also, interestingly I almost never - actually never - use the Serfdom civic. However, I was so frustrated with slow worker builds that I gave it a shot. Not bad. Is it common for marathon players to actually use this civic a bit more. Otherwise, I generally ignore it at normal and epic speeds.

Any other quick tips on Marathon speed to get the most out of it.

 

[Fleme]

I just recently started a series featuring Immortal/Marathon and have almost finished my first game of the series.

I suppose the easiness of Marathon comes from the fact that the AI doesn't prioritize military with correct scaling, occasionally resulting in no real military contest. This can be fixed with Aggressive AI, but then the AI teching slows down a notch. Personally, I still like marathon wars.

Furthermore, to add to difficulty, the AI doesn't give away techs when you sue for peace because they value beakers the same way as they do on normal, resulting in pretty much every tech after the medieval period to be too expensive for them to consider giving it away a fair deal.

Workers are good no matter the speed. The time it takes to improve your empire is equal to that on normal. However, I agree on the fact that having more workers on marathon than on normal would be more advantageous because stacking workers makes more sense. Still, it's not a big deal.

Serfdom shouldn't be used. Slavery and CS will always be better and if you want more worker speed, just build a few more workers and enjoy the benefits of the better civics.

And to conclude, I'll obviously point you to my Marathon Runner signature

 

[iggymnrr]

Don't know if I can do your question justice, but they say marathon doesn't scale well. This doesn't apply to workers however, they are really slow. So yes having more of them is nice. At higher levels, especially deity, you steal them. It's harder to do on prince because the AI doesn't have them early enough. I haven't tried marathon at prince, but have on immortal and settler. (Wide range!) You can steal on immortal and on settler sometimes my first two builds in a city will be worker/worker (assuming barbs off.) So I guess prince may be somewhere in the middle.

 

[lymond]

@jfleme - I'd love to try your series eventually. Immortal is a bit tough going for me at the moment although I do try the GOTMs which are sometimes at IMM or Deity. They blow me away.

Also, it appears you run your game with BUG in custom assets which means your saves are neutral and won't work for me. I prefer WB saves like a lot series use so that I can run it with BUFFY or BUG. I don't put any mod in custom assets since it jacks with other mods I play with.

Looks like a great start forHannibal though.

 

[lymond]

Actually jfleme, I see that your save is a BUG 4.1 save. I was going to load it to create my own WB save and things went haywire. Good thing is this has prompted me to update my BUG to 4.1 (note: there's actually a 4.2 now) I install using the multiplayer option so that it installs as a regular mod even though I don't play multiplayer.

I thought I'd attempt this for kicks although I expect to get slaughtered. Don't recall playing as Hannibal before.

 

[madscientist]

I have said this before but I will do it again. Former Marathoner from the beginning, Epic speed player since Summer. All my Classic RPCs were at marathon speed for walkthroughs.

Comments

1) Military is built 2X faster at marathon while buldings are 3X. Also movement does not scale, so you gat a cheaper army that moves techwise faster. Go Kill and Enjoy!

2) The Peaceful game of wonderspamming and researching to space is more difficult at marathon because the local moron AIs can bring nasty stacks unexpectedly (you have 3 times the chance of the AI declaring war) which are difficult to counter effectively. Want a challenge, run an 18 leader Pangea map game and try to win via culture or space!

3) Golden Ages are 2X normal speed, which scales equally with military but NOT buildings. Thus Great People are a little less valuable because the golden ages are slightly less efficient.

4) Gold from pillaging and city capturing does NOT scale with game speed. Thus capturing an early city in normla speed gets you enough gold to fuelk the treasury and research alot more things then marathon. However, with one of the patches goody huts now scale with speed.

5) The first build and research item is a littel odd. You will always get the worker built before you research the first tech, thus sometimes your first worker is twiddling his thumbs waiting for animal husbandry or agriculture. Not a big deal at easier levels but can be critical as you play more difficult levels.

 

[banson]

im a mara player and i can tell you what to expect. youll want about 2workers per city and 6 in 1 go to make a road in 1 turn and more to do farms and mines. you can generaly expect alot of techs to start off early in game around 30-40 turns each. and dou to the slowness, the cottages become very important. they takes 30 turns to grow to lvl 2 then 60 turns to lvl 3 then 120 turns for lvl 4.

warfare is darn fun, but youll need to build units from the start to keep up a army. in a good prod city real early making a unit in 3 turns isis pretty fast. average good prod times will be around 5-6 turns. and more for those citys not so good in prod. still even if its 7 turns thats ok when you have all your citys making units in total war mode. but 9-10 turns is generaly a very slow prod city.

a couple of improvements give more hammers like workshop and mills. you can usualy expand to 5-8 citys before you have to wait on your econ or really worry bout war with a rival.

and the notion of you cant make units fast enou if you got no army... i do that all the time. i dont keep one till i need one and just have a few defenders in citys . but total war mode allows me to get units out fast enough to not lose a city, or if i do im ready to make hell on earth with them.

the thing you can take advantage of is they wont attak your citys right off , they will get rid of the defences. depending on how high you have them you can have enough turns to have a round or 2 or of your citys making units.

 

[banson]

Comments

1) Military is built 2X faster at marathon while buldings are 3X. Also movement does not scale, so you gat a cheaper army that moves techwise faster. Go Kill and Enjoy!

3) Golden Ages are 2X normal speed, which scales equally with military but NOT buildings. Thus Great People are a little less valuable because the golden ages are slightly less efficient.

golden ages last 16 turns and military is not built faster in mara at all. normal can have units out every turn but to even get 3 turn unit in mara will require alot of hammer investments.

 

[madscientist]

golden ages last 16 turns and military is not built faster in mara at all. normal can have units out every turn but to even get 3 turn unit in mara will require alot of hammer investments.

MArathon golden age is 16 turns, normal 8. That's twice as long.

Buildings and research go 3 times longer in marathon, while units are 2 times longer.

However we term it, the speeds do not scale to each other very well.

 

[Navarre]

If you must remember one thing to play marathon, it's this: don't ever get caught with your pants down.

You must anticipate declarations of war, and you must anticipate them soon enough to build troops. Always have your border cities well defended, coastal as well, and make sure you have a quick response force which can be rapidly deployed to deal with incomings. Between the two or three turns of anarchy every time you change a single civic and the time it takes to build troops, switching to slavery or nationhood hoping to whip/draft troops won't save your threatened cities once the enemy comes knocking with a large stack.

 

[zizzeus]

One further thing about building units and game speed. On Normal, your HE city should be building 1 unit/turn once it's improved. There is no need to add a Military Academy or IW to this city, unless you're trying to overflow gold as well. In order to have enough units, you'll need a few cities building troops, which means generals are spread out or you have some green troops (siege probably).

On epic, it's tougher to get 1/turn but not impossible. I haven't played marathon in awhile (girlfriend complains too much whenever I start one of those) but I don't think it's possible without all the corps and junk. The consequence of that is if you are going to increase your troop building capacity via academy, you may as well do it for the HE city, and settle your GGs there. Of course you can still whip/chop/draft your other cities, as it's even more effective on slow speeds when they can't just switch to rifling and have it in 5 turns.

This is the only speed where I would consider building IW with HE, and only with an engineer. No sense wasting turns when troops could be built.

 

[madscientist]

One further thing about building units and game speed. On Normal, your HE city should be building 1 unit/turn once it's improved. There is no need to add a Military Academy or IW to this city, unless you're trying to overflow gold as well. In order to have enough units, you'll need a few cities building troops, which means generals are spread out or you have some green troops (siege probably).

On epic, it's tougher to get 1/turn but not impossible. I haven't played marathon in awhile (girlfriend complains too much whenever I start one of those) but I don't think it's possible without all the corps and junk. The consequence of that is if you are going to increase your troop building capacity via academy, you may as well do it for the HE city, and settle your GGs there. Of course you can still whip/chop/draft your other cities, as it's even more effective on slow speeds when they can't just switch to rifling and have it in 5 turns.

This is the only speed where I would consider building IW with HE, and only with an engineer. No sense wasting turns when troops could be built.

Excellent assessment of the Heroic Epic regarding speeds. It is correct although I never pieced it together until reading this.

 

[vicawoo]

Seems drafting should be worse since you're getting half your hammer's worth.

Getting double the units while growing means fogbusting is easier and scouting is a lot easier.

And they "fixed" gold overflow, the bastards.

 

[Passionario]

Speaking of game speed, does anyone play on Quick?

 

[lymond]

Thanks for the info and please keep it coming if there's more. I'm a little confused by the whole scaling of units and buildings. Buildings do seem way slower. Whipping is great but growth is slow - even with granaries. Units do seem more reasonable as far as speed which I guess it good and bad.

It's interesting how the speed of the game changes the strategy.

I'm playing JFleme's Immortal Hannibal right now for kicks. I'm proficient on Prince now but this still kicks my ass. It's amazing how quick the AI can expand even on immortal and guys like Biz are even quicker with their traits. Just got attacked by 3 civs at once. The hardest thing is expanding quickly enough and keeping up with tech.

 

[naterator]

Thanks for the info and please keep it coming if there's more. I'm a little confused by the whole scaling of units and buildings. Buildings do seem way slower. Whipping is great but growth is slow - even with granaries. Units do seem more reasonable as far as speed which I guess it good and bad.

There's 3x as many turns, techs cost 3x the and buildings cost 3x the , but units only cost 2x the . So compared to other speeds, units are cheaper. That's why the increased unit production of aggressive AI can help them (or create a shaka-monster).

here's the XML file, it has all the breakdowns of exactly what costs what at each speed. Notice anarchy is 2x while barbarians are 4x.

Spoiler :

[B]<Civ4GameSpeedInfo xmlns="x-schema:CIV4GameInfoSchema.xml">
	<GameSpeedInfos>
		<GameSpeedInfo>
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			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_MARATHON</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_MARATHON_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>300</iGrowthPercent>
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			<iCreatePercent>300</iCreatePercent>
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			<iImprovementPercent>300</iImprovementPercent>
			<iGreatPeoplePercent>300</iGreatPeoplePercent>
			<iCulturePercent>300</iCulturePercent>
			<iAnarchyPercent>200</iAnarchyPercent>
			<iBarbPercent>400</iBarbPercent>
			<iFeatureProductionPercent>300</iFeatureProductionPercent>
			<iUnitDiscoverPercent>300</iUnitDiscoverPercent>
			<iUnitHurryPercent>300</iUnitHurryPercent>
			<iUnitTradePercent>300</iUnitTradePercent>
			<iUnitGreatWorkPercent>300</iUnitGreatWorkPercent>
			<iGoldenAgePercent>200</iGoldenAgePercent>
			<iHurryPercent>33</iHurryPercent>
			<iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>300</iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>
			<iInflationPercent>10</iInflationPercent>
			<iInflationOffset>-270</iInflationOffset>
			<iVictoryDelayPercent>300</iVictoryDelayPercent>
			<GameTurnInfos>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>180</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>100</iTurnsPerIncrement>
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					<iMonthIncrement>24</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>201</iTurnsPerIncrement>
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					<iMonthIncrement>12</iMonthIncrement>
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				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>6</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>180</iTurnsPerIncrement>
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				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>3</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>264</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>1</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>156</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
			</GameTurnInfos>
		</GameSpeedInfo>
		<GameSpeedInfo>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_EPIC</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>150</iGrowthPercent>
			<iTrainPercent>150</iTrainPercent>
			<iConstructPercent>150</iConstructPercent>
			<iCreatePercent>150</iCreatePercent>
			<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
			<iBuildPercent>150</iBuildPercent>
			<iImprovementPercent>150</iImprovementPercent>
			<iGreatPeoplePercent>150</iGreatPeoplePercent>
			<iCulturePercent>150</iCulturePercent>
			<iAnarchyPercent>150</iAnarchyPercent>
			<iBarbPercent>150</iBarbPercent>
			<iFeatureProductionPercent>150</iFeatureProductionPercent>
			<iUnitDiscoverPercent>150</iUnitDiscoverPercent>
			<iUnitHurryPercent>150</iUnitHurryPercent>
			<iUnitTradePercent>150</iUnitTradePercent>
			<iUnitGreatWorkPercent>150</iUnitGreatWorkPercent>
			<iGoldenAgePercent>125</iGoldenAgePercent>
			<iHurryPercent>66</iHurryPercent>
			<iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>150</iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>
			<iInflationPercent>20</iInflationPercent>
			<iInflationOffset>-135</iInflationOffset>
			<iVictoryDelayPercent>150</iVictoryDelayPercent>
			<GameTurnInfos>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>300</iMonthIncrement>
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				</GameTurnInfo>
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				<GameTurnInfo>
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				<GameTurnInfo>
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					<iTurnsPerIncrement>220</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
			</GameTurnInfos>
		</GameSpeedInfo>
		<GameSpeedInfo>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_NORMAL</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_NORMAL</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_NORMAL_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>100</iGrowthPercent>
			<iTrainPercent>100</iTrainPercent>
			<iConstructPercent>100</iConstructPercent>
			<iCreatePercent>100</iCreatePercent>
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			<iBuildPercent>100</iBuildPercent>
			<iImprovementPercent>100</iImprovementPercent>
			<iGreatPeoplePercent>100</iGreatPeoplePercent>
			<iCulturePercent>100</iCulturePercent>
			<iAnarchyPercent>100</iAnarchyPercent>
			<iBarbPercent>100</iBarbPercent>
			<iFeatureProductionPercent>100</iFeatureProductionPercent>
			<iUnitDiscoverPercent>100</iUnitDiscoverPercent>
			<iUnitHurryPercent>100</iUnitHurryPercent>
			<iUnitTradePercent>100</iUnitTradePercent>
			<iUnitGreatWorkPercent>100</iUnitGreatWorkPercent>
			<iGoldenAgePercent>100</iGoldenAgePercent>
			<iHurryPercent>100</iHurryPercent>
			<iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>100</iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>
			<iInflationPercent>30</iInflationPercent>
			<iInflationOffset>-90</iInflationOffset>
			<iVictoryDelayPercent>100</iVictoryDelayPercent>
			<GameTurnInfos>
				<GameTurnInfo>
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				</GameTurnInfo>
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				</GameTurnInfo>
			</GameTurnInfos>
		</GameSpeedInfo>
		<GameSpeedInfo>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_QUICK</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_QUICK</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_QUICK_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>67</iGrowthPercent>
			<iTrainPercent>67</iTrainPercent>
			<iConstructPercent>67</iConstructPercent>
			<iCreatePercent>67</iCreatePercent>
			<iResearchPercent>67</iResearchPercent>
			<iBuildPercent>67</iBuildPercent>
			<iImprovementPercent>67</iImprovementPercent>
			<iGreatPeoplePercent>67</iGreatPeoplePercent>
			<iCulturePercent>67</iCulturePercent>
			<iAnarchyPercent>67</iAnarchyPercent>
			<iBarbPercent>67</iBarbPercent>
			<iFeatureProductionPercent>67</iFeatureProductionPercent>
			<iUnitDiscoverPercent>67</iUnitDiscoverPercent>
			<iUnitHurryPercent>67</iUnitHurryPercent>
			<iUnitTradePercent>67</iUnitTradePercent>
			<iUnitGreatWorkPercent>67</iUnitGreatWorkPercent>
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			<iHurryPercent>150</iHurryPercent>
			<iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>67</iHurryConscriptAngerPercent>
			<iInflationPercent>45</iInflationPercent>
			<iInflationOffset>-60</iInflationOffset>
			<iVictoryDelayPercent>67</iVictoryDelayPercent>
			<GameTurnInfos>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>720</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>50</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>480</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>30</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>360</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>20</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>240</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>30</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
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					<iTurnsPerIncrement>25</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>60</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>40</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>24</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>65</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
				<GameTurnInfo>
					<iMonthIncrement>12</iMonthIncrement>
					<iTurnsPerIncrement>70</iTurnsPerIncrement>
				</GameTurnInfo>
			</GameTurnInfos>
		</GameSpeedInfo>
	</GameSpeedInfos>
</Civ4GameSpeedInfo>[/B]

 

[zizzeus]

Well, I still play 3.17 since all my MP friends still play 3.17. I've only used the gold overflow tactic in OCC anyway.

As far as drafting, yes it's weaker in terms of hammers, but stronger as far as having units immediately after gunpowder/rifling, to enjoy longer before anyone catches up. Even on marathon, you can find a Globe city where you can draft every turn from pop 6-5, although it might be better used for the NE, or both. I would do that on Marathon if I only had one food rich city. I would never consider combining Globe + NE on the faster speeds, because drafting cities can be made out of much less (like tundra with 2 seafood and a few forests for the Globe).

Damn, all this talk is making me want to start another Marathon Huge map. I'll clear off my social calendar ... o wait.

Z

 

[Bezurn]

I used to be an epic player for the longest time, but now I've been playing week long games on Marathon. I really enjoy it during a war I can spend a lot of time in that era if I wish before upgrading my troops.

My latest game was with Isabella on Prince level, and I had stone in BFC. Stonehenge, 'mids, Hanging Gardens, and founded 5 of the seven religions It's a GG, now just waiting for Aposticle Palace to let me win with diplomacy... or I could just dominate if that fails, as I still have a huge advantage with Conquistidors and 16/17 seige weapons pumping out of my HE city That is one thing about Marathon that can be frustrating, when you know you have the game in hand it can sometimes take a very long time to finish it properly. But the openings are a lot more fun in my opinion.

The spirtual trait has a lot more power on Marathon as you can switch civics on whim to satisfy diplomatic issues as well as emergancy switches for certain goals. Hence if you wanted to run Serfdom for a while cuz you just got replaceable parts and want to lay down some lumbermills or railroads quickly, you could use that instead of spamming more workers and let your cities grow to get population commerce modifiers.

Whereas on the other speeds, civic changes are fairly inexpensive so making a quick switch doesn't hurt your empire as much.

 

[lymond]

Good point about the spiritual trait. I'll have to try my next marathon game with one of these leaders.

 

[Navarre]

Well, since everything is multiplied by three, anarchy on marathon isn't more nasty hammer-wise than it's on other speeds, need for an instant switch put apart. Actually, it's even less: 1 turn of anarchy for a single civic change on Normal becomes 2 turns on Marathon, and not three, you only have 3 turns way later in the game when you've stayed a long time in a civic. But you sure feel it more: 6 turns of anarchy shuts down your civ for what feels forever. So Spiritual isn't really stronger, but you sure appreciate it more. Ditto for the Christo Redentor.