Rush to tank

[Howitzah]

My first game of CIV4, a couple of days after the patch that let me play it.. I played on Noble (Yeah I know but it was a new game) and blitzed research, before too long I had flight. Now when I went 'mopping up' the nearby lesser civ I sent in my gunships. Much to my horror, it was shot down by a axe man. HOW???!!!!!!

From a gameplay perspective;

Was the axeman in a city? If so, that's 5 str + any promotion bonus + cultural defense + hill defense if applicable.

In any case, no matter the strength, the axemen would have at least a .01 chance to win. I've won at very low odds like that, so it's unfair that an AI should always lose them.

In real life, an Axemen could take out a Gunship with one lucky throw.

 

[chef pablo]

Take your pick are we talking about a division of calvary or indiviual tanks and helicopters,everybody keeps arguing that civ is a game of larger scale operations units should be thoght of as divisions.Yet when it comes to arguing subjects like this ,you bring up examples of indivisual weaponry.make up your mind.
For your example of somalia,there was not a calvary unit in somlalia there were attachments of divisions (mostley marine)but aircav was not there.These attachments could be described as promotions in the game since they are used for forward observance for groand troops .not an an assault team such as cavalry is classicly used for.

 

[Sohan]

They seriously need to implement an invulnerability option, where a unit can not attack or defend itself against specific other units no matter what. IE: A swordsman versus a gunship. But ya, as long as the battle system is designed as it currently is, nothing will get rid of the possibility of these super-old units from having a chance at shooting down modern units that they shouldn't be able to defeat ever.

 

[princecharles]

If the gunship attacks the axemen while they're on a hill, the axemen could have found refuge in caves, making it so the gunships have to land and fight on foot. If the battle was in a forest, the axemen could hide in bushes, making sure there equipment doesn't reflect light. Same for jungles. Desert-Sandstorms hiding axemen. Rivers-Axemen hiding in the water, with helmets off, or near the bank, depending on what plants are near the river. only problem, grassland. Absolutly No hiding spots there...

 

[El Koeno]

I'd say there's tons of unlikely esplanations: maybe your soldiers got careless, and were unattentive to the axemen overrunning the base. The truth is it's a game and it doesn't even need an explanation. Just make sure your have another gunship to finish the job.

On another note: I think gunships should be able to ignore terrain defensive bonuses. Not sure why, it would just feel right.

 

[ElJojo]

The thing is, depending on the context, an axemen are no more axemen at some point. It has been said here a few times. You cannot consider that a nation whiwh has been in touch with another nation's technology won't be able to get some guns and rpg. Axemen and all other units should become guerilleros at some point or rag-tag or whatever, something to point out they evolved. Sure they won't be as efficient as a professionnal, well-trained army but they are not going to fight with rocks and sticks.
As long as the world has been mapped and that astronomy is well-known around the world, some units should evolve. That's not fair for those who discover weapons technologies, but it would force them to press their advantage.
When African and asian colonies rebelled against european countries they did it with guns not with spears, yet they had not invented rifles but you d'ont need to have invented it to use it.
The only exception should occur when you find a new land, people on this new land have no way to "import" guns and learn gunfighting. But usually you don't discover new lands with gunships, but with galleons and knights (or cavalry).

 

[naterator]

You cannot consider that a nation whiwh has been in touch with another nation's technology won't be able to get some guns and rpg

ok, and this is represented in the game how? it's a concise justification of how they could take down a gunship, but it's just not in the game at all. it's all in your head.

 

[ElJojo]

ok, and this is represented in the game how? it's a concise justification of how they could take down a gunship, but it's just not in the game at all. it's all in your head.

Yes I know it's not in the game. That's why I said " Axemen should become guerilleros". I meant that those units should evolve and become another kind of unit, with low specs but with a different look, for example. I am using "should" to indicate that it is not the case now but I wish it would be. Things would be clearer for everyone. Gunships would be fighting "guerilleros", and tank vs spearman would not be a debate anymore.

 

[kristopherb]

its funny ivading with riflemen and bombers

 

[cymru_man]

To the OP: FFS, just send in another gunship.

 

[Gorman Truart]

I remember hearing somewhere about an airplane being shot down with a spear during the Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Apparently, an Ethiopian threw his spear at a low-flying biplane, striking the pilot and killing him.

 

[chef pablo]

I remember hearing somewhere about an airplane being shot down with a spear during the Italian invasion of Ethiopia. Apparently, an Ethiopian threw his spear at a low-flying biplane, striking the pilot and killing him.

ide love to see a link on this one ,its certainly a david and goliath story,course this could also be like the guy who killed himself by strapping a jet engine on his impala and smacked the side of a mountain at like mach2

 

[Charles 22]

I don't like this sort of topic, because it's largely flawed. How does an axeman win this IRL? Real simple. If you're exposing a unit that only has 20 attack points but has just 1-2 strength points left you get what you deserve by letting units attack them. A chopper with one point left is worth maybe 5pts. What's so unusual about a 5pt unit, an axeman, winning in that battle (50% chance all things being even)? Given the axeman is a very old unit, he probably has a good ton of promotions on him too, that the chopper cannot boast about.

Look at it this way. A chopper at 20 is full strength. One at half strength is maybe slowed to half speed with only a quarter of it's armanents. One down to one strength point is "grounded" folks, for all intents and purposes, though the game of course allows you to move it. Any unit, even a modern tank with just one strength point left, is basically a broken unit, such that ANY unit with a promotion or two and operating at full strength has a reasonable chance to take it out. A modern tank equivalent would be one that had it's engine blown and the turret can turn only 15 degrees.

Maybe if Sid would make units be come more immobilised per their lack of strength, then people could see normally powerful units being very vulnerable instead of them moving along just as quickly as though nothing were bothering them.

Of course some units getting damaged wouldn't necessarily translate to lack of mobility, such as an axeman getting his axe broken and so on. They can still fight by hand or in a tank's case just use the machine gun without traverse, etc.

 

[Howitzah]

Maybe your chopper was shot down by the other Civ's God. :thumbdown

 

[Drakan]

Actually in Spain this shepard took down a military helicopter with a slingshot over ten years ago pissed off by the noise it was making frightenning its goats.

Obviously the helicopter wasn't an Apache it was only a recon heli, even so, it was a huge embarassment for the military.

 

[El Koeno]

To the OP: FFS, just send in another gunship.

That's a bit of good advice! Seriously, I always count on losses, so I try to bring some extra units.

I really don't get why people keep whining over battles being random. It's not a wargame, you don't get to control the outcomes of battles, so it's handed over to the RNG. I really think they did a good job in getting the odds right, most of the outcomes are good. Maybe not totally realistic, but still very very good gameplay-wise. And that with a simple and elegant system .

Anyway, everyone is entitled his/her own opinion, and I think there might be mods available to those with a opinion that's not shared by Firaxis .

 

[Seleukos Helios]

I don’t agree that a gunship unit of strength 1 should represent severely damaged gunships. The ‘unit’ represents a military formation (division, platoon, whatever, depending on the scale of the game/scenario). So a unit with strength 1/20 would probably mean 1 in every 20 helicopters is operational, rather than all the helicopters are grounded due to damage.

Further on, real air units are impervious to almost all ground units. You can’t damage a fighter or bomber with a tank any more than you can damage it with a spearman, and this is represented in the game. On the other hand, air units cannot conquer territory. They can bomb the hell out of a unit of musketmen, but some of then will still hide in caves, or forests, or bunkers. The unit of musketmen cannot fight back, but it also cannot be truly destroyed, nor the land it is defending taken. You need ground troops to do that.

Gunships represent a middle option. They are, in effect, highly mobile ground troops, flying at very low altitudes and supported by helicopter-carried troops that secure the ground after each successful strike. If the enemy is cunning enough, or entrenched enough, they can thwart the attack of the air cavalry by evading the gunships’ direct attacks, ambushing the ground troops, and perhaps launching surprise counter-attacks against the helicopters’ bases of operation, leaving them without fuel and support. That would amount to ‘destroying the gunship unit with axemen’.

And of course, even if a unit’s main weapon is the axe or spear, in modern times you should expect them to make smaller use of more unconventional weapons, suited to each unit they confront. Spearmen equipped with Molotov cocktails (a cheap trick that would not show on the official unit stats) could take out early tanks.

Therefore, I personally find the current system of battles satisfactory.

 

[chef pablo]

can anybody give an example of an ATTACKING DIVISION in the past 200 years that has been destroyed,this is the point.I would think that a smart or even a dumb general would realize when hes getting his ass kicked and pull back his forces.

 

[zeeter]

This again.....seems like every week.

It's a game. The game engine has worked through four games.

Perhaps those who have a problem with these mechanics should simply send more than one helocopter into the enemy territory. Otherwise, you're complaining about losing one helocopter? Were you basing your entire invasion plans on winning that one battle?

People get so uptight about this topic. Civ4 is NOT a wargame. The units do not represent swordsmen or axemen or pikemen. They represent numbers; some of which have a certain advantage over other numbers. The pictures and the names are just there for asthetic purposes.

 

[zeeter]

can anybody give an example of an ATTACKING DIVISION in the past 200 years that has been destroyed,this is the point.I would think that a smart or even a dumb general would realize when hes getting his ass kicked and pull back his forces.

Custer. But I guess it proves your point since that's the only example I can think of.