Sadly, Grade "F" for Civ IV: Colonization

[Bkeela]

I've not read every post, but could it be that the builder TBS gamers are finding the game tough, because they are more involved with building up their colonies than preparing for the final conflict, whereas the warmonger TBS gamers are more keen to exploit the various strategies?

The original was so easy, that you could enjoy both aspects. Maybe things have been perverted in favour of the Warmongers?

 

[Knut_Are_M]

The main problem with tieing bell production linearly to REF is that there is absolutely no reason to build a huge empire.

The game mecanics support, building a small empire that has fortresses and defensive ground around them. 3-7 cities max.
going for only military leaders and ignoreing the rest.

The way to win independence is elite soldiers, because as you grow bigger so does the ref. It makes spain redicolously OP, because they will decleare war on the natives when there ready to have them attack there cities to gain EXP for there soldiers.

Point is it makes the game counterintuitive, spain OP, and elite soldiers are key.

Economy, religious freedom, non military founding fathers, size etc is of no importance in getting independence.
In MP this makes the players going for independence lose outwright. Since when they declear independence a clever player might have gone for high score victory, and therefore attacks you with an army of 3-4 times your ref.
It also means that the aim for independence becomes a singleplayer only victory condition. Because it is impossible to achieve in MP.

It makes independence victory a useless strategy for online play!
And it makes getting independence easy when you know the game mecanics!

 

[hlnovice]

I kinda have to agree with Heathcliff. In my mind liberty bells shouldn't have an impact on the REF. I was hoping that it was going to be more or less related to how much gold you give to the king (gifts, fees and taxes). Too bad...

I can see a reason to improve on the old col game, since the king's army was just too easy even at the hardest level, but this is just too much in my opinion.

 

[Colonel_Flagg]

I've read through a few of these pages, and it inspired me to register.

I've finally gotten to the end of a Colonization game, where I was utterly destroyed by the REF. The 1st 2 times Montezuma took me out early, the jerk, so I went to France. Anyway, when the REF came, I admit my jaw did drop it was so large. I felt that it was an appropriate size for taking out the 13 colonies, but I had 1 colony of a few cities the size of Rhode Island, so it did seem pretty large. But to me this is appropriate. The Revolutionaries risked their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor (if I remember correctly), and they were very scared for their lives. In fact, America lost a majority of the battles and still won the war.

So the point, I think the REF is of an appropriate size where if you learn from your mistakes, it is a challenge that is more than a nuisance and less than impossible.

And one MAJOR point I want to bring up, some people's main concern is trying to get Founding Fathers, so they get Liberty Bells too soon. Can't you use the production of the city to generate FF points? The Military, Political, Religious, etc Points? Negative: it takes the production of the city. Positive: it doesn't piss off the king. I haven't tested it yet, but in theory shouldn't this work? Just thinkin of different strategies...

 

[Knut_Are_M]

If you can build political points yes, but if you cant then no, there is no hope for that.
but yeah it should be possible.
The only reason i can think of to deny the buildup of political points would be to make it impossible to win independence victory and massing founding fathers at the same time!
Political points are needed for all founding fathers.

 

[Quueg]

Isn't the whole point of this game to build up your colonies without pissing off the King? The challenge is to balance your developing potential for independence against the natural tendency of the King to squash you if you appear too independent. Isn't the whole point to temper your citizen's desire for independence until they have actually developed their cities and armies to the point where they can achieve independence?

Liberty bells represent the desire for independence, and it makes sense that they would generate an equal and opposite response from the King.

The problem perhaps is that people are rushing their colonies toward a desire for independence before they have built up the infrastructure necessary to achieve it. Wasn't that, in a nutshell, the dilemma the Founding Fathers faced?

 

[Colonel_Flagg]

I agree with you. I don't even start producing Bells until the king has asked me for money at least once (tip: don't send your treasures to Europe too early or else he'll ask for a lot early on. I found this out when I actually tried to wait to buy a galleon).

 

[hlnovice]

Liberty bells represent the desire for independence, and it makes sense that they would generate an equal and opposite response from the King.

So let me get this right... if the States would have waited another ten years before declaring independence... the British would have sent more troops???

 

[Ellestar]

Edit: this one is wrong
Each next King's unit requires 10% more bells than a previous one (REVOLUTION_EUROPE_UNIT_THRESHOLD_INCREASE = 10 in GlobalDefines.xml).
So, if you declare a revolution at 50%, a bigger colony has an advantage - bells required for revolution scale linearly (and you get more founding fathers) and king's army scales much slower than that, roughly it's about +7 units for double population with 50% bells. Log (2; 1.1) = 7.27

You can do as many bells as you want and as early as you want (say, get early Founding Fathers fast), the only catch is that you shouldn't have more bells than you need at the start of the revolution.

 

[Gliese 581]

Is the REF based on absolute number of bells or % rebel sentiment or some other number like bells/# of citizens gives REF increase likelihood?

If it's based on percentages and such then there are very good reasons to expand since more bells can be generated while keeping overall rebel sentiment low which gives faster FF generation.

 

[Ellestar]

Is the REF based on absolute number of bells or % rebel sentiment or some other number like bells/# of citizens gives REF increase likelihood?

If it's based on percentages and such then there are very good reasons to expand since more bells can be generated while keeping overall rebel sentiment low which gives faster FF generation.

Only absolute number of bells generated affects it. Also, i was wrong in my previous post - after a while game adds 2+ units at a time, right? So, at the start you don't get a linear increases in a number of units from the number of bells. However, when a king starts to add 4+ units it becomes effectively a linear increase from that point - 75 bells per unit, default game speed multipliers (300%, 150%, 100%, 75%), 160%-50% of that number depending on difficulty level.

Source: CvGameCoreDLL\CvPlayer.cpp line 7862 CvPlayer::doBells()

 

[Swordof1kTruths]

Whatever happened to the customer is always right? If I could, I would take this game back to the store and ask for my money back. There is just no way a patch three months down the road would ever bring me back. I have got that sour taste in my mouth right now from being abused with this game.

This company used to be a name I could trust to release quality products. I guess I'll have to lump it in with all the other mediocre companies and wait for actual reviews from customers to see whether it is SAFE to buy, ie. Spore.

 

[Sphinx]

<delete this>

 

[ButSam]

The whole concept of "Bells" is what makes the game more of a puzzle than Strategy.. How many Bells,, How soon etc .. it just makes no common sense. The Homeland doesn't get nervous when you purchase Cannons and Troops but gets worried if you put someone in the Bells category ?? oh please
Why is it you can early on you can build a blacksmith, weapons ,an armory and a fort , but you still have to purchase those mercenaries from the Homeland as oppose to just start training your own citizens to be soldiers.. ??

I really enjoy the game, other than real bugs with the GUI and unit cycling, plus "phantom" boats in Europe, that need to be patched (the workaround is save/reload). Sure, it is difficult, but it is in the flavor of the age. You can't just stick all your troops in the city and win by defending your city; you have to maneuver.

Of course cannons, troops, etc would not raise the king's concern. It didn't in real life. They are Englishmen (or whatever nationality); it's an extension of the king's army, forward-based in this new, highly competitive frontier, right where they could be needed most to fulfill the king's dream of controlling the new world for their country. It's talk of liberty that would be deeply concerning, not the # of troops.

I give it a "B"; I don't want to master a game after one or two plays, I am still trying to figure it out but having a blast. The "B" will change to an "A" once they patch the bugs. There is one thing you are right about -- I don't think Take 2 does extensive playtesting. There have been too many glaring and high recurrence rate bugs in both this game and a BtS patch to think they do. I hope Firaxis falls under new management soon, I will have to think twice before buying another product on release day, I don't spend money to become a beta tester. I just hope these bugs are patched before that crazy Civ 4 BtS "patch" fiasco.

 

[Reveilled]

Amidst all the Dale-bashing, I can't help but stand on his side, believing there's reason in his arguments, and that you guys are being too harsh on him, perhaps.

First of all, let me say I haven't actually reached the War of Independence yet. University stuff and all. But allow me to ask: how many of you have actually fought a WoI against 400-500 REF units on Pilgrim difficulty? The big number is intimidating, but let's analyze the situation...

Assuming you have accumulated Liberty Bells from the start, and at the point of the declaration you have 100% rebel sentiment, your military units should have the following bonuses to their strength.

+50% due to rebel sentiment (+100% if you're using Bolívar)
+60% due to difficulty level
+X% due to various terrain bonuses

The REF units might have a bit more raw strength, but they don't receive any bonuses whatsoever besides those involved in settlement combat. The result is continental troops being twice or perhaps thrice as good as royal regulars, meaning you might be able to win your independence despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 if you choose your battles wisely.

At sea, your ships enjoy the same sentiment and difficulty bonuses, meaning they're probably 30-40% better than the King's vessels. He might have 40-50 ships, but every Man o' War you sink means less troops you have to fight on land, which are the real threat.

Chew on that for a bit. I'm guessing many of you are speculating as much as I am.

I admit, I have been doing a lot of speculating, and have yet to fight the WoI myself, but it certainly seems like the experiences of others indicate that the difficulty on the easiest mode is too great, and Dale has all but admitted through ignoring me every time I've brought it up that the game doesn't establish a link between Liberty Bells and the REF in the manual or tutotial tips, or warn you that the REF is growing too large to handle, and why.

Should someone on Pilgrim difficulty have to pick their battles wisely to win? Picking your battles wisely being a matter of win or loss shouldn't be an issue until the middle difficulty, I think.

All that said, I feel that while Dale might not have made the best impression at the start of the thread, he has been subjected to some quite unwarranted and rather nasty personal attacks, which has been entirely unfair to him, and has effectively stifled the discussion, since we're now just sitting about patting each others backs in agreement.

 

[NikNak]

Assuming you have accumulated Liberty Bells from the start, and at the point of the declaration you have 100% rebel sentiment, your military units should have the following bonuses to their strength.

+50% due to rebel sentiment (+100% if you're using Bolívar)
+60% due to difficulty level
+X% due to various terrain bonuses

The REF units might have a bit more raw strength, but they don't receive any bonuses whatsoever besides those involved in settlement combat. The result is continental troops being twice or perhaps thrice as good as royal regulars, meaning you might be able to win your independence despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 if you choose your battles wisely.

At sea, your ships enjoy the same sentiment and difficulty bonuses, meaning they're probably 30-40% better than the King's vessels. He might have 40-50 ships, but every Man o' War you sink means less troops you have to fight on land, which are the real threat.

Chew on that for a bit. I'm guessing many of you are speculating as much as I am.

Again, more meta-game thinking. There's no way an inexperienced player would know about or use this knowledge.

Look, I played a sample game last night. Pilgrim level. English with Washington. I played as if I didn't know a thing. (Not stupidly, but with no real strategy in mind.) When the WOI kicked off, the REF was at 380. 380! I had 14 soldiers and two cannons. I don't care what kind of combat bonuses you get, that's overwhelming.

At no point was I warned about what would happen. None of the dialogues told me that starting Liberty Bells from the beginning would result in a monstrously large army coming to swamp me later on. In fact, the tips are worded in such a way to encourage a player to use as many Liberty Bells as possible. There wasn't even a prompt to check the REF screen.

That's a flaw. People don't learn strategy from that kind of example. They just get frustrated and shelve the game. Contrast that scenario with a game of Civ IV on the easiest mode for a first-timer.

 

[formless blob]

This thread is appalling. The OP has a very valid point, but gets a bunch of elitist crap as a reply. The Civ franchise is loosing its way, and it is because the developers listen to the likes of Dale and others in this thread.

Point of fact: A giant slugfest is not fun, except for a very few hardcore players.

 

[Sashimi917]

This game shouldn't be named Civ4: Colonization since it can never be compared to Civ4 such a great strategy game, this game gives limited strategy and little choices for the players. A conclusion for what you have to do to master this game - trial and error.

 

[dalgo]

First of all, I really like this game. It has the old 'one more turn' addiction I enjoyed so much with the original Col. Most people here are not complaining about the game itself, just the balance. Yes the game should be challenging, yes it should force you to find a winning strategy - but the player should get a break at the easiest difficulty level. That is the entry level. Many people will come to this game without having played Civ or Col before. Give them some initial success to encourage them to try a higher level.

In Civ a newbie can start by building Wonders flat out at the base level and still have a chance to win the game. Not at higher difficulty levels though. I'll often complete a game having built only one or two Wonders the entire game. It should be the same here. Let them have fun grabbing FF's when they start so they'll have a better idea of which ones are really valuable when they are refining their game strategy for higher levels.

 

[sw99]

My post earlier seems to have been passed over so i'll ask again.

Why did they take out the foreign powers intervening if you hold out long enough in the WOI? That combined with cannons being able to fire at ships would give a lot more hope at being able to win.