Sadly, Grade "F" for Civ IV: Colonization

I've been playing a few games now and I still haven't won even on Pilgrim. I don't think it's right that the King has so many troops. A lot of my games I ran out of turns before I was able to declare independence and in the games that I have declared independence I just get destroyed. It's hard to learn from my mistakes when the defeat is so large. This is probably the hardest game I've ever played since I can't even win! I'd like to have more turns so I can have more time to prepare for the coming onslaught and to have the REF to be a little more forgiving. If I could win the game by kissing His Majesty's ring then I would definitely do it.
 
So let me get this right... if the States would have waited another ten years before declaring independence... the British would have sent more troops??? :crazyeye:

Depends on what was going on during those ten years. The historical answer probably is "yes."
 
The way I see it, it seems that optimal stragety is to balance your liberty bells in such way that you get 50% support at the turn you are ready for WoI.

If you do it faster you are in trouble.

Right?
 
My post earlier seems to have been passed over so i'll ask again.

Why did they take out the foreign powers intervening if you hold out long enough in the WOI? That combined with cannons being able to fire at ships would give a lot more hope at being able to win.

Second to both, especially the cannons firing at ships. I had one privateer slaughter my entire navy. It would have been nice to have at least a chance of sinking it by the cannons in my colonies since it kept going up and down my coast. Not sure why they eliminated either feature. It makes for a simpler game than its 15 year old predecessor. Shouldn't they just be adding things to achieve balance and their goals not stripping things out?
 
I just registered this morning after finding the site under the links section at Civ4: Colonization's official site. I found this topic to be very compelling and as a new turn-based strategy player, and new Colonization player as well, I was hoping my input would be of some use. If not to the players in this forum but to the developers that have been said to read them.

First off, I'm fairly fresh to turn-based strategy games. I do own a copy of Civilization 4 but I never really dove deep into the game, learning the hardcore mechanics to compete on Noble or higher. I usually played on one of the bottom three difficulty levels. That being said, there wasn't once where I played a game on those bottom difficulty levels that I didn't smother the computer or at least was able to correct my situation after I learned about the mistakes I was making. To me that's exactly how the lower level difficulties should be. You're there to learn the basics, explore the mechanics, and start to develop your own strategies under the watchful arm of greater bonuses for yourself and harsher penalties for the AI.

Now we get to Colonization. I picked up the new game Tuesday when it became available at my local Best Buy. I had enjoyed my limited time with Civ4 and wanted to give this one a shot. I'm always a sucker for New World games where I get to act out my own scenario of creating independent countries in the Americas. After playing well over 20 games in the last few days I'm convinced there is something wrong with scalability of the difficulty levels. Playing on Pilgrim I have yet to win my war of independence. With seven different levels of play, I find that to be ludicrous. After feeling that I've learned the ins and outs of economy, politics, religion, and military I'm still having my butt handed to me on a silver platter by the motherland. Personally I don't believe that is acceptable on Pilgrim. Especially with no mention within the manual, civpedia, or the within the game itself to assist me in what I might be doing wrong.

So I came here for answers and found this thread. I completely and utterly agree with Mr. Vanguard that something is indeed amiss. And after reading this thread entirely, I firmly believe it has to do with the REF situation. Something isn't scaling properly. There's no reason in my mind that I can't win the majority of games, if not all of them, on Pilgrim setting. That is its intent and purpose. To allow fresh players like myself to get a "free pass" if you will to victory so that I'm free to explore all sorts of topics and crazy strategies in order to fully develop an understanding of the game. That's not happening in this current build.

Here is a quick bullet list of what I feel are some of the more glaring issues with the game.

-The manual and civpedia go on at length about Liberty bells, about how they're essential for ALL of the Founding Father's and various points (military, trade, exploration, politics) yet not once have I seen a mention of those same bells causing massive troop surges by the motherland once the war has begun. In fact the manual also clearly states that winning the war is the sole victory condition, as it should be. But again, there's no warning against the massive onslaught I'm about to face.

-My first 5 games or so I was constantly paying off my King thinking that I would cause him to strengthen his army, raise my taxes, or incur some other stiff penalty if I continued to neglect him. The dialog even says (Anger King). Yet after trying a game where I didn't give him a penny, not a single repercussion took place. He never added troops. Didn't raise taxes any faster. Didn't penalize me in the slightest.

-For some reason, no matter how well I believe to be playing, I'm always 3rd or 4th on the score tally. I've never been able to out perform all of the other colonies. In Civ4 on the easiest setting I would be hundreds of points higher than any other civ. Again, the very entry level setting should allow anyone to breeze through the game to victory, alllowing them to fully explore the game.

-Trade routes get broken as soon as you pick up someone from the dock. Then it's a hassle to determine which routes that particular ship was on. Why not some function to resume trading after I drop off the unit?

-I take time to make sure all my colonies are connected via road to ensure fast travel for wagons, colonists, soldiers, etc. Why then can my colonist make his way from one city to the next in a single turn, but then not be able to start manufacturing at the new Cigar Factory I just built? He's got to wait until his next turn to do so. Why did I need the road then?

-How is it (again on Pilgrim) that no amount of defense I build can stop the forces of my previous King? Their ships completely destroy my Ships of the Line, which are very time consuming and expensive to buy. Why is it that my attack odds are ALWAYS lower against the AI, even when I'm being careful to take advantage of combat upgrades, positioning, and typical Civ military strategy? I never saw that on the easiest setting in Civ4 combat. Why did I waste time and money on forts when the AI ships decimate them immediately?

Anyway, as a final word, I do agree that the system (or concept) of having the King increase his forces as you build up independent desires is a solid and novel system. However, as it stands I suspect that even on Pilgrim that system is being based off the highest difficulty setting. I don't believe the AI is getting the penalties they should have or we're not getting the bonuses we require. As a new player to this game, and to turn-based in general, it's almost to the point that I can't continue to play. I don't feel like I'm being given the proper freedom to explore the game in its entirety. If after 20+ games on Pilgrim, I still can't beat back the forces of the motherland, then I'm convinced there is a bug that needs addressing.
 
The way I see it, it seems that optimal stragety is to balance your liberty bells in such way that you get 50% support at the turn you are ready for WoI.

If you do it faster you are in trouble.

Right?

Right.
And worst of all you can't predict how you will be ready until you play few times... Seems like it's a professional game - only professional gamer can win :crazyeye:

You even can't orientir on amount of King's REF - it's so little at start of the game and raise so fast that information is pretty non usefull in planning :-/
 
I admit, I have been doing a lot of speculating, and have yet to fight the WoI myself, but it certainly seems like the experiences of others indicate that the difficulty on the easiest mode is too great, and Dale has all but admitted through ignoring me every time I've brought it up that the game doesn't establish a link between Liberty Bells and the REF in the manual or tutotial tips, or warn you that the REF is growing too large to handle, and why.

Should someone on Pilgrim difficulty have to pick their battles wisely to win? Picking your battles wisely being a matter of win or loss shouldn't be an issue until the middle difficulty, I think.

All that said, I feel that while Dale might not have made the best impression at the start of the thread, he has been subjected to some quite unwarranted and rather nasty personal attacks, which has been entirely unfair to him, and has effectively stifled the discussion, since we're now just sitting about patting each others backs in agreement.

I don't have Colonization yet, but I'm acquainted with Dale from these forums.
I also use some of his mod components.

Dale is a good guy. He's also an accomplished player and programmer.

I think he's just reluctant to spoil everyone's individual journey of discovery into this game that he's had an early chance to appreciate.

While he is remarkably patient, he does hate repeating himself.

Rather than debate people who don't have all of the facts he chose to spend his time more constructively -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292519

I don't think he dismissed everyone's concerns at all. I think he'll make a lot of people happy :goodjob:
 
I am in agreement about the observation that the REF is way overpowered. I do not understand how at pilgrim level (5 games so far) i have to contend with a REF that is combined 2-3x more numerous that the entire colonial population. Even if I could train up ALL my colonists to be soldiers and (somehow) give them all the requisite combat bonuses (via bells and XP) how i could stave them off.

I have other observations about things that need fixing
1) AI colonies defence - There isnt any Natives slaughter the AI powers as they have almost no defence even in late game. (How the AI can win is beyond me), Ive seen an AI spain wiped off the map by the Aztecs.

2) We need a trade route summary screen I can't tell which ships/wagons are on which routes and trying to find the right one to modify it a Royal PiA.

3) Trade routes may be buggy - i have 2 towns - town A exports 2 items and town B imports them. I set a wagon for both - but only IItem seems to move sometimes.

4) PLEASE for the love of all that is holy DO NOT autoassign my colonist to a plot/job when I click join a colony - if you do you have to look to see when the AI put them - sometimes messing up the colony.

5) Cultural borders - whats the point??? the "fat cross" is 3x3. Sure you can poach the terriotory of nearby neigbors but why - you cany often make viable city in the liberated squares. (resource denial strategy??)

6) Crosses - they supposedly increase immigration - I dont think it works at all Ive had a firebrand preacher (or two) in many colonies but ive never had a free colonist at the docks - ever. It just seems to (albeit very very VERY ) slowly lower the colonist "hurry" cost.

7) Ridiculous hurry costs - Why would I hurry a criminal for 4000 when i can buy a master of something for 1500 under the buy menu?

8) schools dont seem to work at all.

9) Diplomacy -Seems a bit underwhelming - it seems little more than teh AI spamming you to DoW on someone. It would be nice if the European wars (a la Pirates!) would impact the colonies. If France and Spain are at War in Europe it should be reflected here. In a way its a bit silly that and maybe reflected in trade (Holland asks you for 100 Guns to help fight the infernal English!") etc.

10) Can anyone confirm whether of not foreign intervention (AI allies) can actually help in WoI?

Rat
 
4) PLEASE for the love of all that is holy DO NOT autoassign my colonist to a plot/job when I click join a colony - if you do you have to look to see when the AI put them - sometimes messing up the colony.
Well just select change profession from the world view and you can choose lumberjack or whatever. I know you might want to look at the city screen too but whats so difficult about clicking join city then double clicking the city? Are you queueing the join city order after a move order?

5) Cultural borders - whats the point??? the "fat cross" is 3x3. Sure you can poach the terriotory of nearby neigbors but why - you cany often make viable city in the liberated squares. (resource denial strategy??)
Yeah seems like a lot of effort for so little. Especially as you are building liberty bells which give you REF problems.

6) Crosses - they supposedly increase immigration - I dont think it works at all Ive had a firebrand preacher (or two) in many colonies but ive never had a free colonist at the docks - ever. It just seems to (albeit very very VERY ) slowly lower the colonist "hurry" cost.
Yeah they do. Huge difference. Get a church up and put a Firebrand Preacher in it early game and you will have more immigrants than a caravel can handle (especially as you want to be buying some cheap resources to pawn off to the natives). Are you spending all your free cash on buying colonists? This will shoot you in the foot as it raises the cross requirements for subsequent immigrants. Not sure whats optimum yet but I try to use cash early to only get important specialists and buy goods to sell and gift to the natives (gifting to get them on side). Apart from getting a key manufacturer ie. Tobacconist early money I often need another ship for cargo, and Privateers own hard too: they'll pay for themselves taking out one good enemy cargo ship. Also money early on used to buy tools as these are just not worth producing yourself seeing how cheaply they can be bought from Europe.
 
In response to Cultural Borders, in my last game on Explorer as French (so Natives like me), I wiped the Incans off the map just with my borders. When it encroaches too much on their land, they offer you the city, which is then immediately destroyed.
 
Alright, installed friend's dvd last night and played a bit.

First level, I went till the last 100 turns. I quit at that point, as I don't think it was winnable. Played again today a bit trying to figure out how it all works.... can't even understand the basics like, why does the education system seem so wacky. Manual says a pop-up tells you what you want to train your guys for, but they seem to always be auto-assigned to a profession that is the WORST choice for the city.

Gahhhh....

Don't even get me started on the terrible graphics, and most boring gameplay I have ever seen in the last 15 years of gaming. Even Lords of the Realm I seems to have everything this had, but so much better.
 
MadRat said:
4) PLEASE for the love of all that is holy DO NOT autoassign my colonist to a plot/job when I click join a colony - if you do you have to look to see when the AI put them - sometimes messing up the colony.

5) Cultural borders - whats the point??? the "fat cross" is 3x3. Sure you can poach the terriotory of nearby neigbors but why - you cany often make viable city in the liberated squares. (resource denial strategy??)

6) Crosses - they supposedly increase immigration - I dont think it works at all Ive had a firebrand preacher (or two) in many colonies but ive never had a free colonist at the docks - ever. It just seems to (albeit very very VERY ) slowly lower the colonist "hurry" cost.

7) Ridiculous hurry costs - Why would I hurry a criminal for 4000 when i can buy a master of something for 1500 under the buy menu?
4) Then don't use the Join Colony command. When the colonist is outside, enter the settlement screen and drag&drop him wherever you want.

5) They've the same use as in Civ4. You can block the AI with your borders, or even take over their settlements' working tiles. You can also 'absorb' native tribes this way.

6) Impossible. As long as you keep your preachers working in a church, they'll contribute crosses to the immigration bar. Every time the bar gets filled, a new colonist appears on the European docks, randomly chosen from the three ones you can hurry.

7) Evidence that you are, in fact, getting immigration help from your preachers (or just hurrying them A LOT). When you hurry immigrants (instead of purchasing them), you are actually buying the crosses needed to complete the immigration bar. Each cross costs 10 or 20 gold, I don't quite remember.
 
Well just select change profession from the world view and you can choose lumberjack or whatever. I know you might want to look at the city screen too but whats so difficult about clicking join city then double clicking the city? Are you queueing the join city order after a move order?

Yeah, it took me a while to realize that I did not need to click assign to actually assign the colonist. I was under the impression (via tutorial/manual) that you needed to assign them first. Now the button seems useless lol.

Yeah they do. Huge difference. Get a church up and put a Firebrand Preacher in it early game and you will have more immigrants than a caravel can handle (especially as you want to be buying some cheap resources to pawn off to the natives). Are you spending all your free cash on buying colonists?

I did that and still nadda. Yes I am buying colonists, for the simple fact that I gave up on having my crossed produce any. *snicker* I never realized that buying them up actually slowed recruitment; I know the cost went up - it wasnt obvious that the cross cost did too. I was making oodles of cash so money wasnt a problem - just preachers seemed surperflous. :crazyeye:
(would be nice if we had soem sort of estimate like "x turns for new colonist")

Rat
 
I don't have Colonization yet, but I'm acquainted with Dale from these forums.
I also use some of his mod components.

Dale is a good guy. He's also an accomplished player and programmer.

I think he's just reluctant to spoil everyone's individual journey of discovery into this game that he's had an early chance to appreciate.

While he is remarkably patient, he does hate repeating himself.

Rather than debate people who don't have all of the facts he chose to spend his time more constructively -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292519

I don't think he dismissed everyone's concerns at all. I think he'll make a lot of people happy :goodjob:

I agree that Dale has his intentions in the right place and that he's a very helpful member of these forums. I think the mod he's working on is a good step in the right direction.

My issue with it is that if you're coming to these forums and downloading/installing a mod, then you're likely not the player that really needs the REF adjustment. You can, after all, read the advice right here on how to alleviate the Liberty Bell and REF linear growth. Dale himself supplied a viable strategy.

The adjustment should be an official change implemented in a patch. Sooner, rather than later, since first impressions of Pilgrim difficulty are what will influence the newbie player immediately. It being an official change would also legitimize the adjustment, since a mod can and would be construed as a "cheat" by many.

I'm not trying to come down too hard on the more experienced members of this community, but in my time here I've noticed a bit of tunnel vision when it comes to this series. People get very wrapped up in meta-game strategies and forget that a significant portion of gamers have never actually played any of the Civ games. To them, our talk of ICS, REF, tax rates, pops, etc, may as well be in Sanskrit.

Civilization Revolution got a pretty harsh beating here, but the one thing it did very well was simplify the core concepts of Civ so that virgin strategy game players could play and have a sense of accomplishment by winning. I have a feeling that it was beta tested by strategy newbs as well as more experienced players.

I don't get that feeling with Colonization. In fact, I almost get the feeling that Firaxis completely forgot to test this game with people that have never picked up a Civ game. I find it hard to believe that any random newbie would ever win his first few games in Colonization without some help.
 
I don't understand everybody's problem with the education system, because I have had no problems. When you put a Free Colonist or a Native Convert in the school (only ones I've tried so far), it takes, mm, about 16-20 turns (if I remember correctly) for them to finish their education. When the 20 turns is up, you choose which profession they will take BASED ON THE OTHER EXPERTS IN THAT COLONY ONLY. So if there is an Expert Fisherman, a Lumberjack, and a Carpenter, you can only choose from those 3. The more basic experts are free, while the good ones cost money.
 
(would be nice if we had soem sort of estimate like "x turns for new colonist")

Rat

In the Europe screen look at the duller colour on the bar and that will show you how much will be completed next turn. Normally you can at a glance realise if one will be coming up soon or not. I just use that to decide if I want to keep my ship there or send it off with what it has already picked up.
 
I don't understand everybody's problem with the education system, because I have had no problems. When you put a Free Colonist or a Native Convert in the school (only ones I've tried so far), it takes, mm, about 16-20 turns (if I remember correctly) for them to finish their education. When the 20 turns is up, you choose which profession they will take BASED ON THE OTHER EXPERTS IN THAT COLONY ONLY. So if there is an Expert Fisherman, a Lumberjack, and a Carpenter, you can only choose from those 3. The more basic experts are free, while the good ones cost money.
The problem appears to be that, as you train more colonists, the education time exponentially gets higher and higher, eventually making the education buildings worthless.
 
5) They've the same use as in Civ4. You can block the AI with your borders, or even take over their settlements' working tiles. You can also 'absorb' native tribes this way.

I undestand the mechanic just it seems a pointless. Absorbing native tribes is helpful but usually kepping them around (for training and missions) is usually better. What I find odd is that by taking over another settlements working tiles you cant really use them since they are outside the 3x3 cross and cannot be resourced as in Civ 4.

Yes, they do provide a "border" to prevent european AIs from passing through but the non-existant AI agressiveness coupled with the ease of ICS it seems hardly worth the effort. I can build a line a 1x colonies to do the same thing, get more resources / unit with the added benefit of being able to use all the tiles later on. (plus avoiding the REF hit)

It seems the only real usefulnes sis a sort of "resource denial" strategy to keep an AI from say using that lush cottonfield; you' can't use it but neither can they!

Rat
 
Ah, I see. I haven't experienced it yet, but I will pay attention next time. That doesn't even seem logical; with more practice at teaching, shouldn't you teach faster?

But a logical fix would be to have you pick what profession you want FIRST, and each profession has a different length of time based on what tier it is, and we can get rid of the money cost with this.
 
The problem appears to be that, as you train more colonists, the education time exponentially gets higher and higher, eventually making the education buildings worthless.


Not to mention that using a native villiage is a lot faster. I can get a colonist from Europe - run them over to Ye Old Native School and get an expert and get them to a colony in amuch shorter time; plus im not stuck with a colonist that is essentially idle in my colony (i havent noticed if they draw food).

Rat
 
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