Sadly, Grade "F" for Civ IV: Colonization

Dale needs to take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. The game is broken in its current state and no amount of furious denial is going to change that.

I'm not going to present myself as the "uber Civ expert", because there are far better players out there than I am. I will say that I've owned all 4 Civs and every expansion for them. I purchased the original Colonization when it came out about 15 years ago. I know my way around the Civ universe pretty damn well.

After playing on the easiest difficultly level, I've never had a Sid Meier (his name is on the box, folks) game go from "A" to "F" in such a short time as I did with this game. In every single Civ-type game, the noob difficulty level is a cakewalk. It's supposed to be, because these designs are complex and the concepts presented take a while to learn. It's going to be hard for the average new player to understand the concept of growing tobacco and transporting those goods to a different city to have cigars rolled, never mind work around a game mechanic that's not even discussed in the manual. So it's designed to be almost impossible to lose for a reason. It's part of the brilliance of Sid Meier's designs. Going back to Pirates! and F-19 (both of which I purchased when they came out), Sid Meier designs have been about accessibility.

So I was playing last night and was building my pitiful little colony, got to 50% and declared independence. I saw the size of the REF, but I thought perhaps it was a mistake or that the troops would be untrained, or so forth. Needless to say, it was a shock when over 150 highly-promoted REF troops showed up on my shores. There was no way my pitiful little band would compete with that highly trained force...it was "game over". At that moment, the game went from a "B" or even an "A-" to a "F". Yes, it's possible to work around this by building no liberty bells, but you should not under any circumstances have to work around a game mechanic if you choose the easiest difficulty level. If you do, the game is flawed...period. So now, if I attempt to play this again, I have to guess as when to start building my liberty bells. That's not a good design. Not a good design at all. You shouldn't have to guess - and guess correctly - on critical issues to win at the easiest difficulty level.

You get colonists from your homeland. Well, my first colonist was a Elder Statesman. Are you telling me that it's a good game mechanic that I can't use my FIRST colonist for his primary purpose for many, many turns? If nothing else, that shows the absurdity of the design....

Also, the victory conditions bother me a bit. You have to wipe out the REF to a man? That's entirely unheard of...it's not like we wiped Cornwallis out to a man in Yorktown. He arrived with 10,000 or so men and surrendered with 7,000. It's so historically inaccurate that it detracts from the game. There must have been a better way of coming up with victory conditions - Civ 4 is brilliant with the varied victory conditions it offers. So seeing one path to victory - and one so historically inaccurate it defies belief - is a severe letdown.

The good thing is that it's easily fixable - Firaxis should be working on a patch for this immediately, because they're going to lose a shitload of customers if people can't win on the easiest difficulty level. The bad thing is that because so blatantly flawed slipped into the shipped release, I'm worried that there are other flaws that aren't fixable in this one.
 
Three more games down...

1. Quick game, bad settlement start. I stuck with it, but there was no iron (or hills or mountains) around on the island I had landed on. I could be a trading mogol, to be sure (and had like 30K gold), but there was no way I could ever declare independence. Honestly, a 'trade' victory should have been possible.

2. Last night, won an WoI the same way I did first time, send out SoL's to take out the MoW's one at a time. With fortune, he had only built 6, so it was fairly easy to remove the navy.

3. This morning, got completely raped (I hate using this term, but it's incredibly apt here) by the Sioux's 15 troops in his size 2 camp when they did a suprise attack on me. Complete loss.

This morning is my last game of Civ4:Col. I'm giving up, officially. The amount of issues ALL OVER THE GAME are just so bad that I feel cheated. I'll never by a Firaxis product 'unseen' ever again.
 
I agreed with everything you have said before this post.

Now I think you are expecting too much. This response might sound harsh for which I apologise as I think you have been very contributive highlighting some of the games major issues and successfully argued against Dale's crazy talk:

1. Quick game, bad settlement start. I stuck with it, but there was no iron (or hills or mountains) around on the island I had landed on. I could be a trading mogol, to be sure (and had like 30K gold), but there was no way I could ever declare independence. Honestly, a 'trade' victory should have been possible.

You knew you would need this stuff from the start or to stockpile tools and weapons?! What is so hard about taking over land not on your initial island. You can camp next to native settlement and just pay them off if you have so much gold. It will take every square except their settlement itself. Conquest is another obvious one. Ships make transport easier across the sea than across land anyway.

The game has a tight objective. Become independent. That is a design decision that makes the game very focused and not very sandbox and alternative ending. Might not be everybodys cup of tea but getting to the ending knowing the objective and complaining because you didn't win is a bit much.


2. Last night, won an WoI the same way I did first time, send out SoL's to take out the MoW's one at a time. With fortune, he had only built 6, so it was fairly easy to remove the navy.

This seems to be a weird problem from some of the numbers people have been running. Sometimes even if REF gets massive in number their transports don't! Was this game played with unaltered game or with mod or REF modification? I think the destroy the navy option is an excellent and legitimate way to win especially as MoW are so much more powerful than what you can build.

3. This morning, got completely raped (I hate using this term, but it's incredibly apt here) by the Sioux's 15 troops in his size 2 camp when they did a suprise attack on me. Complete loss.

What was your relationship with them? This is about learning the game. I have found so far playing on Conquistador difficulty that they will never declare war unless I have negative relationship. They are nomads, they have small cities but all of them can fight. This seems like a knee jerk surprise thing. Happened to me a few times and I just put it down to learning how the native relationships work. I think this will shock a lot of people used to Civ4 as it is very different but fits the setting I think.


This morning is my last game of Civ4:Col. I'm giving up, officially. The amount of issues ALL OVER THE GAME are just so bad that I feel cheated. I'll never by a Firaxis product 'unseen' ever again.

Thats a shame. I bet a copy of Firaxis' next game that you come back when a patch is out. You have spent so many hours playing it you must have a lot of love for it. The hate will wither away.
 
Thats a shame. I bet a copy of Firaxis' next game that you come back when a patch is out. You have spent so many hours playing it you must have a lot of love for it. The hate will wither away.

Possible with a patch, but unlikely. I drug out my old copy of Colonization for Windows, found WING.DLL, and am currently playing it in the background. It's still just a better game, thoug I miss some of the technical improvements that have come since then (pathing, interface issues, etc.) But it's a better GAME all around.

I'm already giving away my copy of Civ4:Col.
 
First Game, Washington - Pioneer
Well, it explains a lot. If you can't win on pioneer... Then the game is really unbalanced for you.

Let me guess, do you play on chieftain Civ4BTS?

I've played colonization looong time ago and I was unaware of it's mechanics. Now I play it as a totally new game as Conquistador and it's not that hard, just plan your turns and keep your bells until you're ready to start the revolt.

I still consider the game to be unbalanced and Dale knows it (he makes good patches/mods) but the current situation has appeared because the game is rushed not "F". I still enjoy it.

But don't deny that it's broken. Accept it as a broken (at least a bit) and fix it please, Dale :).
 
Well, it explains a lot. If you can't win on pioneer... Then the game is really unbalanced for you.

Let me guess, do you play on chieftain Civ4BTS?

I reguarly beat it on deity, actually.. but I often play on Chieftan when I just want to do the 'explore the world and build the empire' thing.

But, please, do go on about how stupid players who don't automatically master the game on easiest level right out of the package are - that'll help things out around here, surely.
 
Well, if you're a deity-player then I didn't get your style. I can't convince myself to play on something less than medium level, but it's a matter of a taste.

I may change my mind about the "rating" of the game if the future patch won't fix a lot of issues with it though :).
 
Well, if you're a deity-player then I didn't get your style. I can't convince myself to play on something less than medium level, but it's a matter of a taste.

I honestly find combat rather boring, which is where a lot of the 'advanced levels' in Civ4 really show up. It's not that it's HARD, it's just a slog-fest I'm not too interested in. I enjoy the early-part of the games more. (Granted, I still like to WIN.)

I may change my mind about the "rating" of the game if the future patch won't fix a lot of issues with it though :).

There are so many major issues, as well as niggling ones, I'm not sure if a patch really COULD address it all. A lot of this game just plain needs rewritten, as there were some VERY BAD design decisions put into place here. What's worse, the game offers LESS than ColWin did (which is over 10 years old now), much less offering anything that several other similarly themed games have had since then. (Even Colonization:Revolution offered more for exploration!)

I might have been more forgiving if this had been a fan-mod only, put up here, and fans were working on it and tweaking it as you went. But then, if that were the case, I would be confident that such egregious issues would be adressed in a swift manner.

That and the common defense of the games' issues wouldn't be "You're too stupid to play it right."
 
I honestly find combat rather boring, which is where a lot of the 'advanced levels' in Civ4 really show up. It's not that it's HARD, it's just a slog-fest I'm not too interested in. I enjoy the early-part of the games more. (Granted, I still like to WIN.)



There are so many major issues, as well as niggling ones, I'm not sure if a patch really COULD address it all. A lot of this game just plain needs rewritten, as there were some VERY BAD design decisions put into place here. What's worse, the game offers LESS than ColWin did (which is over 10 years old now), much less offering anything that several other similarly themed games have had since then. (Even Colonization:Revolution offered more for exploration!)

I might have been more forgiving if this had been a fan-mod only, put up here, and fans were working on it and tweaking it as you went. But then, if that were the case, I would be confident that such egregious issues would be adressed in a swift manner.

That and the common defense of the games' issues wouldn't be "You're too stupid to play it right."

Since when "casual" games like Civilization became math. classes? You should know tricks/mechanics/"the-way-to-do-things" to beat the game; well and a skill which comes with time; you don't need a huge amount of intelligence so I don't think that the word "stupid" is appropriate here.
Dale told you to learn not to stop being stupid :). These are different matters. You should really learn HOW to play this kind of game, you know, with the only Victory option (Civ4 had much more various ways to beat it).

I still consider this as a mod, you know, some mods are better, some mods are worse so while being official it has a right to be worse than the vanilla game (Civ4) it's based on or a game it's inspired by (Civilization). Only original mods with specially designed system and talented dev.team with a lot of time can become something better than their precessors. In this case I think this game was developed just too fast, so the time may fix it. Maybe.
 
Since when "casual" games like Civilization became math. classes? You should know tricks/mechanics/"the-way-to-do-things" to beat the game; well and a skill which comes with time; you don't need a huge amount of intelligence so I don't think that the word "stupid" is appropriate here.

It's a lot of how the attitude is addressed. Dale all but said "well, duh, you should learn to meta-game, then you can win you newb!" That maybe wasn't his intention (though it was explicitly stated by others), but that's definately how it came across.

But, in all honesty, for me, a personal who not only was familiar with all Civ, ColWin, etc, but also wrote and developed strategy games of this type professionally at Talonsoft, I should never, ever, ever, run into major snags at the easiest level of a strategy game.

I still consider this as a mod, you know, some mods are better, some mods are worse so while being official it has a right to be worse than the vanilla game (Civ4) it's based on or a game it's inspired by (Civilization).

It's a mod, yes, but it's a $30 mod from a professional company treating this as a second-tier product. It's not even an add-on, but a 'catalog filler' designed to maximize the use of their costly Civ IV engine. If the other 'catalog pieces' are actually still coming, then they should have done better with this one.
 
For those still having a sook over this, I invite you to test Snoppy & my unofficial patch which addresses REF and MANY other bugs in the game. :)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180830

To those still taking cheap shots at me and changing the meaning of what I posted earlier in this thread, put your fist in your mouth and help me fix the bugs ok?

I NEVER SAID YOU HAD TO PLAY BY META-GAMING ALL I SHOWED WAS IT WAS JUST AS EASY TO GET A TINY REF AS IT WAS TO GET A HUGE REF!
 
Thanks for your efforts and patience, Dale. I think some of the early complaints have been overly hysterical. Fortunately, others are starting to post more favorable experiences with the game. Certainly there are some bugs, and I appreciate your attempts to squash them.
 
I am going to have to agree here, this is about Col2, and what you like or disliked about it. Not hate on Dale time... I mean isn't he currently making a mod just to fix the problem? (And point out there is a way to play to win (wither you like it or not))

I still find it kinda sad that such a good game is being so "bashed" just because you don't want to change a value to make it the way 'you' want to play it. Also when someone comes up with advice... wow.. :dubious:
 
I am going to have to agree here, this is about Col2, and what you like or disliked about it. Not hate on Dale time... I mean isn't he currently making a mod just to fix the problem?

Keep in mind that many posts to which I refer were deleted by the moderators, which are for more explicit about such sentiments. Yes, Dale does seem to be working on the problem, but keep in mind his FIRST responses to a major game-killer were hostile, at best.

I'm not trying to 'hate on Dale', I'm trying to say, quite clearly, that people's concerns with major issues of the game are valid, and it's probably hurting the community more than helping it when most of the replies (including the first few from Dale, but certainly not exclusively him) were in the lines of "Learn to play the game, moron."

I still find it kinda sad that such a good game is being so "bashed" just because you don't want to change a value to make it the way 'you' want to play it. Also when someone comes up with advice... wow.. :dubious:

Again, why not check the threads where this advice started, and take a gander at who was posting some of the fixes... hmm?

The problem I have now is that there are a LOT of major issues, and I'm not experienced enough as a 'modder' for the Civ4 game engine to be able to tackle them all. Now, while I could learn it and do it (or at least apply Dale's), my main point THERE is that it's quite unreasonable to expect everyone who has problems with Civ4Col out of the box to know to do this.
 
I was looking forward to this game for a long time but now i have it i cant put myself to playing it.

Most of the gameplay is directly copied from COL1. So I get a very 'been there, done that' sentiment.

Additionally some things are just badly done. The other European powers are too weak and not really important. It's focused too much on independence and the struggle versus the king.

In each new CIV, new gameconcepts were introduced that built on the previous games and were a true enrichment.

COL2 just feels like a graphical update.

And last but not least, why do the Dutch have a ´king´. Atleast in COL1 they called him the stadtholder.
 
Keep in mind that many posts to which I refer were deleted by the moderators, which are for more explicit about such sentiments.
Thankfully.. but it seems as the lines goes gray some learn to walk the line.. But that is for a different topic (Not meaning to insinuate anyone just bringing up a point)

Yes, Dale does seem to be working on the problem, but keep in mind his FIRST responses to a major game-killer were hostile, at best.
This is about as good as saying... he started it. I can not speak for Dale, as I am not his spokesman :) (Hey Dale want a spokesman? :king:) But I mean although there 'may' be some sarcasim in the first post... is that a reason for page after page of continuing after one person.. getting further off topic?

Not to mention, can someone do something helpful even if they disagree, or change their minds? I liked eggs as a kid, but can't stand them now. but my 'first' response was good.. I mean wouldn't it be better other then continue to say thanks for working on it and know you at least got your point across? (Of course that is just my opinion.. so take it as you will).

I'm not trying to 'hate on Dale', I'm trying to say, quite clearly, that people's concerns with major issues of the game are valid, and it's probably hurting the community more than helping it when most of the replies (including the first few from Dale, but certainly not exclusively him) were in the lines of "Learn to play the game, moron."
You say your not, then ya do.. by quoting something he didn't say. I can't believe I am even going in this depth for some dude I don't know... But it is frustrating because you are right it is a valid problem (IMO), but since everyone is so focused on those few that disagree and knocking them down, that I truly hope the point itself is even seen.

Again, why not check the threads where this advice started, and take a gander at who was posting some of the fixes... hmm?
I did... remember the link to that post I put in there (It was a few pages back so prob miss able no worries). Its good.. I hope you keep up with it, that is the right way to get it fixed other then continue the problum


The problem I have now is that there are a LOT of major issues, and I'm not experienced enough as a 'modder' for the Civ4 game engine to be able to tackle them all. Now, while I could learn it and do it (or at least apply Dale's), my main point THERE is that it's quite unreasonable to expect everyone who has problems with Civ4Col out of the box to know to do this.

Yo know as much as I do this is just a temp fix until there is a patch... I mean come on man? Now before you say if it is unreasonable to expect to wait for the first patch to make the game more playable for everyone.. well unfortunately that is not true..

To be honest I am not trying to 'get on you' specifically about this whole thing, just tring to get back on point as I am sure we can somewhat agree that sure that problum is there... is there anything else?
 
Yo know as much as I do this is just a temp fix until there is a patch... I mean come on man? Now before you say if it is unreasonable to expect to wait for the first patch to make the game more playable for everyone.. well unfortunately that is not true..

Well, I would feel better if someone at Firaxis would say "Yep, we screwed it up for everyone, there's a patch coming, and the second shipment of the game will have it on the CDs.. sorry... sorry everyone."
 
Back
Top Bottom