Saladin: bleh

vormuir

Prince
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Messages
348
He's the least interesting of the leaders IMO..

Starting techs: Mysticism and the Wheel. Mysticism gives you a decent chance at founding a religion, but the fact that it's paired with the Wheel means you can't start with a Worker build (unless you want to have your worker spend a dozen turns building roads...).

Traits: Spiritual and Protective. Not bad, but no synergy with each other, the starting techs, or the UU/UB.

Back when Sal was Philosophical, there was an attractive early path for him: snag an early religion, then either build an early Priest wonder (Stonehenge / Oracle) or pick up Priesthood, chop a Temple, and run a Priest. Voila: very soon you'd have a Great Priest and an early shrine, with shrine income and a good chance of spreading the faith to your neighbors.

Now that he's Protective... well, you can still pull this off, but you have to wait an extra 25 turns for your Shrine, and that makes it a lot less attractive. Early income is better, and spreading religions works best when there's not much competition yet.

Unique Unit: Camel Archers. These are Knights with no resource requirements and a 15% withdrawal chance. Let's think that through.

One, if you don't have either horses or iron by the time you get Guilds, something is very wrong. (And by "don't have" I include "can't get in trade".) Either the RNG has decided to stick it in, rotate it, and snap it off, or you're just not playing very well. I can't remember the last time I reached Guilds without having access to these resources. So, the resourceless part is pretty worthless.

Two, if you really are resourceless... well, congratulations: you now have a UU that can't be upgraded. Good luck in the Cavalry/Cannon era; you'll need it.

Three, the Knight/Camel Archer's window of utility has shrunk with the introduction of the Cuirassier.

Four, the Camel Archer is one of those annoying UUs whose special power disappears when it gets promoted. This is forgivable when the UU is otherwise good (Quechua, Samurai, Praet), but adding insult to injury when the UU is otherwise mediocre.

Unique Building: The Madrassa, a Library that produces 4 culture instead of 2 and that will let you run two priests and/or two scientists.

This isn't a horrible UB, but... feh. I guess there's some synergy with the starting techs, since both are on the way to Writing. Again, if Sal were still Philosophical this would be a much more useful UB, allowing you some nice fine-tuning of early GPs. But he's not.

Unlike the Inca Terrace, the Madrassa doesn't come early enough to help with early land grabs. You can whip it in a newly captured city for quick border pops -- it's better than a Theater -- but it's also more expensive; Sal isn't Creative, so it's not half price.

It's probably some use towards a Cultural win -- 1000 year old Madrassas will produce a whopping 8 cpt, which is nothing to sneeze at. But this would be more impressive if Sal's other traits helped with Cultural, which they don't really. If the silly Protective trait were replaced by Creative, Financial, Philosophical, or Industrious, you'd have some good synergy going. But as it is, the Madrassa just sort of sits there.

The Madrassa doesn't suck, mind you. It's just kind of... blah. Mediocre.

And that's Saladin for you: mediocre. He's not horrible, but he's not very good either. And there's nothing about him that makes him particularly fun or interesting to play.

Am I the only one who doesn't care for Sal? Agree, disagree? Thoughts?


Waldo
 
I think Sal is a one dimensional leader, but what he does he does very well and that is peaceful religion spam for a cultural victory (RPC: HOLY SAL). He no longer had Phil, but the UB helps speed the Great Prophet faster than most realize. The key is to rely early on protective archers and wait on the more agressive military techs while building up the empire. He also has a great early shot at the oracle.
 
I recently played few games with Saladin and it was fun diversion from "normal" game style. Lots of religions and shrine income, even camel archers turned out to be useful. In one game i just started to build them "because i could" and ended up taking over a neightbor for same reason. Saladin is nice choice for a bit different game methinks.
 
Three, the Knight/Camel Archer's window of utility has shrunk with the introduction of the Cuirassier.

This is brought up now and again, yet it's my understanding that the Cuirassier took the old spot of Cavalry, and Cavalry was moved up in tech.

Vanilla Cavalry: Military Tradition/Gunpowder

BTS Cuirassier: Military Tradition/Gunpowder

BTS Cavalry: Military Tradition/Rifling


So the Cuirassier doesn't replace the Knight no more than usual. The Knight's worth and existance is not altered by the introduction of the unit, as the Cavalry would have been in it's spot had it not been introduced. The only thing I can think of that would account for the feeling that the Cuirassier shortens the lifespan of the Knight is the altering of some tech paths with BTS. Perhaps it simply made it easier to jump from Knights to Cuirassiers because of it. Either way, it would appear people are still falsely attributing the shortened lifespan to the Cuirassier, when regardless, the Cavalry unit would have done the same thing anyway.

All the Cuirassier does is make it so you don't have Cavalry so quickly. Cavalry's existence was pushed back, Knight's existence wasn't shortened (at least not directly by the introduction of the unit).

Though perhaps I'm wrong, if so, I humbly await to be corrected, as it puzzles me why people think the Cuirassier shortens the lifespan of the Knight (more than Cavalry did/would have).

Oh, and sorry for the mild tangent, I personally preferred Saladin as Spi/Phi as well.

:king:
 
Oh, and sorry for the mild tangent, I personally preferred Saladin as Spi/Phi as well.

:king:

We lost Spiritual/Philosphical Sal and got Spitiual/Philosphical Gandhi. Industrious/Spirutal Gandhi was very overpowered as he started with Mysticism and Mining, powerful for religions and fast building wonders. Now Ramses II (one of my favorites) is Ind/Spir but starts with wheel/agriculture which hamper that very early wonder spamming. Balanced Gandhi out, got a very stronge but not overpowerful egyptian leader, but limited Saladains playing options.

IMO Sals camel archers should have been resourceless HA's with teh same withdrawal chance. This way he could compete much earlier militarily to acquire the horses needed for knights/crussairs/cavalry as the camel archers are not stronge enough to do that.
 
I fired up a Saladin game last night and am enjoying it, mostly because my intention before starting the game was to shrine-spam. I founded two early religions then Confucianism and I'm going to use the Madrassa with the Oracle to generate great prophets for the shrines and really rake in the dough. We'll see. I agree Philosophical would be much better, but I am enjoying Spiritual to switch between religions for various benefits whenever I feel like it.

The Camel Archer's withdrawal chance is gone when it's promoted... or upgraded?
 
The Camel Archer's withdrawal chance is gone when it's promoted... or upgraded?

Yes it is lost, it is a benefit to the UU only, not a free promotion.
 
well then I better research Guilds next and start upgrading all my horse archers fast... I hate not using the UU! :) I need to go capture Pacal's capital since he got the Great Library.
 
Yes it is lost, it is a benefit to the UU only, not a free promotion.

with upgrade the riders are kept, battle steeds are changed.
Looks like the extra % withdrawal was a camel attribute.

- Oh come on man, what did you do with my camel ?
- We all get to ride horses from now on. All camels were terminated.
- Are kidding me ? I got it customized and everything !!!
- Orders are clear. I guess they got tired of the stinkness.
- yeah, yeah whatever.
 
It says camel archers have 25% withdrawal, not 15%. I've honestly never played this shrine method, I focus more on his protective trait. If you have iron, you can go crossbows/camel archers (if not long bows/camel archers) and go pillage/attack weak cities.

He's just very hard to play, I'd say.
 
but in the Civilopedia for BTS is says 15% withdrawal... anyone know for sure what it is?
 
The Madrasa is a very strong building for specialist economies: You can run four specialists with one single building or you can switch from religious to science priorities as you wish. But you will need a lot of food to bring four specialists at work in the same city.
Combine specialist economy and religious economy with angkor wat, Spiral minaret, Sankore and shrines and you will have a solid economic base for every type victory. To get the Apostolic palace with Saladin should be easy, because you are guaranteed to bulb theology if you want.
 
Sorry, double post!
 
Madrassa is good - as HaweHawe states its great to fuel a specialist economy and combines really well with Ankor Wat. And bulbing Theology gives you the AP, extra production with cheap temples and the chance to get paper for UoS for extra science with those same temples.

The biggest problem for Saladin is starting with the wheel instead of a better worker tech. I find it better to wait for a later religion - not having anything for an early worker to do slows down the start a lot.

Protective has its uses - I enjoy playing with protective leaders. Not because they are powerful - I won't make that argument. But its a change in gameplay and a fun trait to use once gunpowder comes around.

Spiritual is a very good fit with Protective. Switching in and out of Nationalism and being able to draft units with 3 promotions (with Theology and barracks) makes for pretty good rifles. Spiritual is mainly a military trait to me - it means you can switch in and out of war civics a lot.

This makes Saladin a good leader for a religious strategy and warring in the late game. Unfortunately he has a slow start and nothing to help the economy until that time.
 
Three, the Knight/Camel Archer's window of utility has shrunk with the introduction of the Cuirassier.

Actually, it's increased vastly. Cuirassiers come at the exact same point that cavalry used to in Vanilla and Warlords. The difference is that knights upgrade to cuirassiers for peanuts. I think it's 50 gold to upgrade a knight to a cuirassier. That's pocket change during the renaissance era, so you don't have to worry as much about knights going obsolete because they're so cheap to upgrade.
 
Cant believe no one suggested Madrassa with Pyramids. You should cruise to space race win with a farm economy.
 
Back
Top Bottom