Saladin the Devout Athiest?

[Wodan]

It was on archipelago, Huge map, which explains why Saladin wasn't able to get a religion and why no religion spread to him by the time he got Theocracy. However, true to his nature, he enacted Theocracy... thereby preventing any religion from going to him for the rest of the game, too.

Being somewhat close by, I tried all kinds of tricks to get my religion to spread to him. Gift missionaries didn't work; in hindsight, even Saladin himself couldn't spread a "non-State religion". No amount of gifts would get him to switch away from Theocracy. Sure gave me a big + modifier on relations though.

Wodan

 

[Theodorick]

You mean you can switch to religion based civics if you have no religion at all? How does that work?

 

[gotmatt]

You mean you can switch to religion based civics if you have no religion at all? How does that work?

Atheism is just as much of a religion as Theistic religions. it takes a lot of Faith to believe that the universe happend by accident. in fact their's a growing number of mathmeticians that have worked out that it's less likely forthe universe to have been an accident than for it to have been "created".

 

[cthom]

er, doesn't everyone start with Paganism?

 

[BeefontheBone]

a growing number of mathmeticians that have worked out that it's less likely forthe universe to have been an accident than for it to have been "created".

Wuh? That makes no sense, you know.

 

[gotmatt]

it makes perfect sense. things like gravity and other parts of the universe are so finely tuned to produce life on earth, that the chances of it happening by accident is so completely absurd that beliveing in an I.D. is a more palatable option. things like DNA and RNA where there is only information. who wrote the information? it reads like a bio-computer program. where's the programmer? the odds that the amino acidds fell into place are so out there that it's more likely some"one" who had previous knowledge programmed it that way. then there is the "growing universe" debate. there's a mathematical equation that shows the rate at which the Universe grows each year. if you flip it on it's head, it goes back to Zero. if the universe began, what made it begin? there cannot be something from nothing as we all know.

now i don't want to get into a religious debate, so do not try to say anything along those lines. i'm not advocating complete creation (there is virtually no scientific evidence to assume such) but i do advocate there being an Intelligent Designer. it's just pure odds at work. it takes more faith to believe in chance than to believe in intelligent design. my faith is personal so i won't divulge which Designer i think it is some may think it's aliens for all i care, but to think that it's an accident takes way more faith than i have.

 

[Gaspar~]

Intelligent design... :suicide:

 

[De Lorimier]

Take your "Intelligent Design" to OT where it will be shut down by real intelligent people.

 

[Ebitdadada]

Intelligent design... :suicide:

I agree but I spose this isn't the right thread to talk about it.

On topic. Saladin did that in one of my games too. I found Saladin religionless in one of my games. I got all excited and sent 3 missionaries half way around the world only to find I'd forgoton to check if he had a theocracy. I

 

[*Nosferatu*]

Wait, if you don't need a religion for Theocracy, and since all cities begin without a religion, does that mean all of his cities istantly get +2 EXP?

 

[thordk]

it makes perfect sense. things like gravity and other parts of the universe are so finely tuned to produce life on earth, that the chances of it happening by accident is so completely absurd that beliveing in an I.D. is a more palatable option. things like DNA and RNA where there is only information. who wrote the information? it reads like a bio-computer program. where's the programmer? the odds that the amino acidds fell into place are so out there that it's more likely some"one" who had previous knowledge programmed it that way. then there is the "growing universe" debate. there's a mathematical equation that shows the rate at which the Universe grows each year. if you flip it on it's head, it goes back to Zero. if the universe began, what made it begin? there cannot be something from nothing as we all know.

now i don't want to get into a religious debate, so do not try to say anything along those lines. i'm not advocating complete creation (there is virtually no scientific evidence to assume such) but i do advocate there being an Intelligent Designer. it's just pure odds at work. it takes more faith to believe in chance than to believe in intelligent design. my faith is personal so i won't divulge which Designer i think it is some may think it's aliens for all i care, but to think that it's an accident takes way more faith than i have.

did it ever crossed those "intelligent design" people's mind that the universe we live in has produced mankind. the universe hasn't to be created for mankind.
if some odds like gravity differ from what we have.. well, than maybe another lifeform would have those thoughts. or it's just a universe with no life in it all.
and who says that those things hasn't happend before?

 

[ibn sina]

it makes perfect sense. things like gravity and other parts of the universe are so finely tuned to produce life on earth, that the chances of it happening by accident is so completely absurd that beliveing in an I.D. is a more palatable option. things like DNA and RNA where there is only information. who wrote the information? it reads like a bio-computer program. where's the programmer? the odds that the amino acidds fell into place are so out there that it's more likely some"one" who had previous knowledge programmed it that way. then there is the "growing universe" debate. there's a mathematical equation that shows the rate at which the Universe grows each year. if you flip it on it's head, it goes back to Zero. if the universe began, what made it begin? there cannot be something from nothing as we all know.

now i don't want to get into a religious debate, so do not try to say anything along those lines. i'm not advocating complete creation (there is virtually no scientific evidence to assume such) but i do advocate there being an Intelligent Designer. it's just pure odds at work. it takes more faith to believe in chance than to believe in intelligent design. my faith is personal so i won't divulge which Designer i think it is some may think it's aliens for all i care, but to think that it's an accident takes way more faith than i have.

Yes that would be a solution but the solution would be a greater problem than the original. A being that can create the universe is probably more complex than the universe itself. Your solution just makes matters worse.
And now I'm not even mentioning that there's no evidence whatsoever for something like an "intelligent designer" (or in other words God)

 

[Gaspar~]

Trying not to take the bait, but the whole idea of intelligent design (well beyond just being a copout to try and shove creationism down everyones throats by calling it something else) is mostly just based upon the arrogance of OMG we can't solve this mystery, the answer must be supreme being!

Ok, done threadjacking.

 

[Ogrelord]

Take your "Intelligent Design" to OT where it will be shut down by real intelligent people.

what is OT?
Gotmatt take your ID theory to slashdot.org. They shot down believers in creationism so fast, it's funny.


Back on topic. I got to try a game with no religion Theocracy. I wonder if i can make through a whole game without adopting one religion, thus i won't get annoying request asking me to convert.

 

[The Condor]

what is OT?

Right here.

Though just a fair warning: Newbies are eaten for breakfast there.

It was on archipelago, Huge map, which explains why Saladin wasn't able to get a religion and why no religion spread to him by the time he got Theocracy. However, true to his nature, he enacted Theocracy... thereby preventing any religion from going to him for the rest of the game, too.

Actually, you can get religion with a theocracy enacted. Basically, theocracy doesn't kick in till a city gets a religion (by road connection or sea connection... with a civ that has a religion and shrine) that previously had no religion before along with the rest of the cities. Then, for the most part that religion can spread throughout the rest of his kingdom (as long as he enacts it) but others will be shunned. Of course as you pointed out he was isolated which explains why no religion was spreading to him and thus it appeared like he was never going to get a religion.

Being somewhat close by, I tried all kinds of tricks to get my religion to spread to him. Gift missionaries didn't work; in hindsight, even Saladin himself couldn't spread a "non-State religion". No amount of gifts would get him to switch away from Theocracy. Sure gave me a big + modifier on relations though.

Maybe he actually has a religion in a city far away you can't see. Besides, even if you do spread your religion to him there is no guarantee he will adopt it. Or maybe he just doesn't like your religion. Also, he might not want your religion because he knows it would give you line of sight (provided you have a shrine and it is your current religion) and money which would make you a stronger opponent giving you a better chance to knock him out which he probably wouldn't like.

Edit:For the missionaries not working like you said you were playing on a archipelago so maybe he didn't want to waste his time making ships to carry the missionary to religionless cities. Plus, if I am not mistaken missionaires cost more so also he probably didn't want to drain his budget moving it around either. Also, gifting units don't affect diplomacy relations whereas other things (like techs or resources) do.

 

[offworld]

things like gravity and other parts of the universe are so finely tuned to produce life on earth

Life on earth has adapted to the circumstances in the universe not the other way around. There's no "accident" involved.

 

[offworld]

It was on archipelago, Huge map, which explains why Saladin wasn't able to get a religion and why no religion spread to him by the time he got Theocracy. However, true to his nature, he enacted Theocracy... thereby preventing any religion from going to him for the rest of the game, too.

Being somewhat close by, I tried all kinds of tricks to get my religion to spread to him. Gift missionaries didn't work; in hindsight, even Saladin himself couldn't spread a "non-State religion". No amount of gifts would get him to switch away from Theocracy. Sure gave me a big + modifier on relations though.

Wodan

I've had the exact same situation but what I couldn't figure out:
Does he get the +2 experience bonus for his units build in "atheist" cities?

 

[Aramazd]

Actually, you can get religion with a theocracy enacted. Basically, theocracy doesn't kick in till a city gets a religion (by road connection or sea connection... with a civ that has a religion and shrine) that previously had no religion before along with the rest of the cities. Then, for the most part that religion can spread throughout the rest of his kingdom (as long as he enacts it) but others will be shunned. Of course as you pointed out he was isolated which explains why no religion was spreading to him and thus it appeared like he was never going to get a religion.

If you don't have a state religion and you have Theocracy religion can only be spread by creating holy cities. If your civ was a buddhist theocracy then you could spread other religions to non-buddhist cities.

 

[Depravo]

What if you were to found a city close to Saladin's borders, use a missionary to spread your religion of choice to it, then gift it to Saladin? A few turns down the line, he might convert off his own bat.

I like the idea of Arab paganism.

 

[Drakonik]

er, doesn't everyone start with Paganism?

That's a common misconception. Paganism, as portrayed by the religious leaders, only meant "people who don't worhsip our god(s)", not "people who dont' worship at all"

Wikipedia defines paganism as:

Within a European Christian context, paganism is a catch-all term which has come to connote a broad set of not necessarily compatible religious beliefs and practices (see Cult (religion)) of a natural religion (as opposed to a revealed religion of a text), which are usually, but not necessarily, characterized by polytheism and, less commonly, animism. There is little organized "-ism" in paganism (12).

Works Cited

12 Feb. 2006 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism>.