SAM-01 Smoke and Mirrors

[Glare Seethe]

Nicely detailed report, Whosit.

Math was the right decision, I think. Slight concern over the fact that Huayna can tech Theology now, but I'm not sure we had a better deal. I suppose the other option would have been to put some turns into Iron Working and then make the trade without Mono, but I probably would've done your trade as well. Once Stalingrad starts running the priest specialist we should be able to get to the AP first, and in any case we know someone on the other continent probably already has access to Theology since Judaism has been founded. But we still have an advantage since we didn't have to waste turns teching Writing, so no big worry.

I wouldn't have traded for Archery since we don't need it and every tech we receive in trade contributes to WFYABTA.

The iron revealed to the east offers a nice site to block Huayna. I had no idea how to dotmap that lake-ridden area at all, but that is a nice clue.

So, we do need to make a team decision on our western city. Do we go for one great city risking an earlier DoW from Nappy, or two mediocre ones playing it a bit safer? I'm kind of undecided at the moment, myself.

Edit: I'd replace the courthouse build in Novosibirsk with a lighthouse.
Edit 2: Also, I think the iron that popped out west supports your claim for Magenta, if we go with that site, as a production city.

 

[Whosit]

Er . . . what does "WFYABTA" stand for?

And if Capac does get Theology before us, is he likely to withhold it in order to build the AP?

 

[Dave Hartwick]

WFYABTA - "We Believe You Are A Big Techwhore, Amigo." It means you're trading too many techs, there's a mechanic you can look up.

And yes, I'd say the Incas would definitely not trade away the AP.

I've had a look at the save, although I haven't followed the discussion as closely as I should have-- I've only skimmed many of the posts.

Which city will be the GP farm? Kras? There is a good site NE of Kras, we could get either 2 seafood and a rice or 3 seafood. That's plenty for a GP farm. If we go with Kras we'll have to irrigate all of it as the food situation isn't so good.

Speaking of GP farms, are we going to make a run for the Great Library? It's one of the top wonders. If HC or France build the AP we can capture it and it'll likely be the right religion so we'd win the elections anyway, If they build the Great Library, well, we can capture that too, but it might not be in a good site and it would take a while to exploit, maybe a long while.

So for tech path I'd think Currency > Aesthetics > Literature.

 

[Whosit]

Ah, thanks Dave. I'll make sure to keep that in mind for the future.

As far as GP farm, I believe that the newest dotmap suggests one in the NE Territories, White Dot 1 which'll get two seafood tiles and some rice. It should be possible to irrigate up there with Civil Service.

I could definitely get onboard with a run for the Great Library. We're industrious and we have the special resource for it, and hopefully getting writing for free will have served as a springboard. Though do you mean that we should put Math on hold and go straight for Literature?

On a slightly different note, when we go to war with Napoleon, let's make sure to wrest that stone source from him.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Well, Currency is a very good tech, and if the GP farm is to be in a new city we'll need time to develop it anyway. So we could complete math, I suppose, although it would be safer to abandon it and go Aesthetics > Literature (probably have to get Polytheism as well, I forgot to check).

 

[Glare Seethe]

I support a run for The Great Library (and Parthenon on the way? It's so cheap for Industrious w/marble), but if we want to build it in our proposed NE GP farm site would we use our current settler for that instead of one of the western sites? If so we risk letting Napoleon expand further south.

Dave, what do you think about the proposed sites to the west? I think we should at least complete our block there before we settle east.

edit: Oh, we also have Poly already.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

I'd be leery of going for the Parthenon as we need hammers going into settlers, workers, troops and infrastructure. Yes, I guess divert the settler to the farm site and put Kras to work building the required workboats and garrison.

For the west, I could get the closer commerce site founded, I'm almost sure. Could settle for capturing the barbarian city simply to block the French but it would be a much weaker city. I agree that we want to box the French as war will inevitably come with them and the weaker they are, the better. Once we box them, though, we have to then close borders or I suppose they'll just walk through.

 

[Glare Seethe]

We'd have to keep an eye out for French settlers and close borders if it happens, but the AI is usually reluctant - at least for a while - to settle behind our borders.

For the Parthenon, I was thinking we could give it a run at Novosibirsk. I think it only has like 5-6 base hammers, but with Industrious plus marble it might actually be enough to finish it since wonders are going really slowly this game. That way we don't tie up our major cities with a minor wonder or cause GA pollution. Worst case scenario we end up with some gold, and it's not like Novo has anything better to build once it finishes its lighthouse. Even the courthouse can be delayed there due to the silver mine.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Sounds good to me, although Novo could may be better used for settlers and workers instead.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Nice report Whosit. Great storytelling.
I'll make my case again for just the one city out west. This map has such limited food as it is and that one city (the closest one to the W) won't have ANY. It will be even worse than my lame-ass placement of Novo (still don't know what I was thinking . . . er, wait, obviously I wasn't). Yes, it will put us in competition with the Napster, but that's pretty much inevitable anyway. As far as competing for tiles, what the ONE fp? He can have it for now. We'd still have 4 cottaged fp's for 12 food, which means that's a size 6 city just with those tiles. With any luck he'll cottage it up for us for later use . After razing Bactrian and re-settling I'd have a settler waiting to found the wheat/iron city. He can wait in our territory and reach and settle the spot in two turns. If Nappy wants to settle behind those cities I'd say let him. Less settlers we need to build.

Spoiler :

To the east Glare's white cities look good, we could move White 2 1E for less overlap if we wanted but didn't really check to well (how many ocean tiles etc.) and it probably doesn't matter that much.

Novo will take forever to build anything so I'd put it on spy/missionary duty. It would produce either in 15 turns and we could let it do that switching as needed. Also, as we have courthouses we should actually BUILD them. It not only will reduce maintenance but more importantly get our ep's rolling so we can steal techs from HC as he has good land and will eventually get ahead of us in tech.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

My rule of thumb with courthouses is build them after more important infrastructure or if maintenance for that city is more than 5, but I don't use espionage much.

I'm keen to play but will wait for tomorrow as the decision of where to settle in the west seems important to people. Me, I'd get the spec farm set up ASAP. I figure I can do both, sort of. I should be able to settle NE of Kras and start chopping and building the workboats and get a western city down. However, I haven't taken part in the dotmapping and I really don't want to muddy waters by suggesting a site. So if we can agree on a site in the west for the next turnset, I'd like that. If we can't, I'll end up looking to Norvin as team captain or try to work out a comprimise solution on my own. I hope that suits everybody.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Team captain?? Boy, are we in trouble!!

 

[Whosit]

Wonder if that makes me the rebellious vice-captain. Well, I know the value of the spirit of compromise, and it looks like the tide of opinion is against me. The single-city Magenta is definitely a powerful commerce location, and I guess you can never have too much commerce. I understand we'll want to settle the coastal Great Person city next, though for our third next city, and I hope it is a quick one, I'd like to make it a priority to settle a decent/good production city, hopefully close to Napoleon's borders so that it can support the coming war effort. Norvin's Cyan could possibly fill that role, and some have mentioned blue dot?

Let's see, iron adds two hammers, right? Cyan would have 2 plains hills and a grasslands hill, could probably feed the hills with the wheat and a grassland farm (can't get more food until Civil Service it looks like). Just barely at 10 food. That would be roughly . . . 15 hammers? I guess that's pretty good at this stage of the game. Could probably add some later production with watermills or workshops (don't judge me, I like watermills).

So, that's my compromise plan, I guess. Settle Norvin's Magenta, Glare's White 1, and Norvin's . . . Cyan? As quickly as possible. Stalingrad can pump out settlers fairly quickly. I suppose it would have gone faster with forest chops, but all the workers were occupied and they still probably have better things to do at the moment. Perhaps Moscow can go on worker duty for a bit, but I dunno if we want to skimp on military just yet.

Sound like a plan, everyone?

 

[Norvin_Green]

Spoiler :

Here's your military production city for now. If we go this way, then chop the grassland river as soon as wheat is farmed to get this city to grow to utilize the mines. Try not to whip it as it will grow slowly.
What do you think?

 

[Whosit]

Ah, forgot that was a third plains hill with the warrior on it. But otherwise, that's what I expected. Honestly, I'm not the best judge of what constitutes an adequately productive city, but it seems like the best option at the moment. At least, the best option in that region.

Again, all I really want to ensure is that we have another production city. I wouldn't like to face Napoleon armed only with Stalingrad, maybe Moscow, an icebox, two commerce cities, and a distant GP farm. I know that everyone has marked Green Dot north of Moscow as a good production site, but it still presents the distance problem. Erm, I'll stop babbling now, 'cuz I can't tell if you're for it, against it, or neutral.

 

[Glare Seethe]

I'm fine with the settlement plans. I am pretty sure Nappy will declare on us sooner rather than later, though, because we'll be hit with an "Our close borders..." diplo penalty pretty much immediately, so we just have to make sure that city has a decently sized garrison.

I think Stalingrad should build settlers until we bulb Theo, then build the AP. Moscow on units and workers until Stalingrad starts the AP, then take over settler duty. Novo, well, I don't know. I do still think it should build the Parthenon, but until then it can contribute a worker or something.

edit: I don't think we need any missionaries, the shrine's doing a good job spreading Confu on its own and there aren't any other religions to compete with. More units and settlers, we are at what, 70% research? Let's force that down to 10%.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Let's build the production city first and leave the barb city. Park our military force here swoop in and steal it from Nappy when he comes to claim it. Our blue city, Krasowitz or whatever, should just get cottaged over. It has the two food resources and all those nice green river tiles.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Let's build the production city first and leave the barb city. Park our military force here swoop in and steal it from Nappy when he comes to claim it. Our blue city, Krasowitz or whatever, should just get cottaged over. It has the two food resources and all those nice green river tiles.

But then Nappy could actually settle our original Magenta spot without taking the barb city... If we go for the floodplains we should go for them now, I think. Raze Bactria and settle our site as well as the production city and GP farm. Those three are the priorities. After that we can start looking east. There's actually a nice way to block Huayna along those lakes. I'd hate for him to get a city down by the furs/tundra, or even worse, on St. Peter's holy grave.

We definitely need to race to settle cities since we delayed expansion with wonders at first (and we're about to do so again), even if it comes at the expense of development (i.e. if we can choose between a worker or a settler, I'd personally go for a settler. Workers can always come later). With a well-spread shrine we can afford to settle far away, too.

 

[Whosit]

Yes, I agree. We'll have to burn Bactria and settle Magenta first in order to ensure Napoleon can't slip anything past us. I think you should be able to manage that pretty quickly. I was in the process of moving 3 Axemen to the barb city (1 was escorting the settler, but can be used) at least one had no upgrades (aside from the free ones) so I figure a combat I/Cover/City Raider I axeman should have a more than fair chance of overcoming the barbarian archers defending the city. Then just plop down the settler 2E of the silks. Then build more settlers.

I also hope we can settle out east relatively quickly. I thought someone put a dot map up for that area, but I guess I was mistaken. I just remember hearing that some iron by a lake cluster might make it a decent site after all.

Oh, and after we settle Magenta and Cyan, what kind of garrison should we be looking at? 3 Axemen each? Or 3 in Magenta and 2 in Cyan? I wouldn't want to risk the ol' 1 Warrior garrison at this point.

Edit: Ok, so I attempted some dotmapping for the east just to get our bearings. Explanation/analysis/justification follows.

The Northeast Territories:

Spoiler :

The Southern Wildlands:

Spoiler :

The Central Wildlands:

Spoiler :

The Northern Wildlands (and H.C.'s territory):

Spoiler :

I included the white dots because I think we're pretty much agreed on them. So the south looks like a mess 'cuz I have a couple possibilities I was thinking of and it doesn't look pretty. Yellow Dot (St. Petersburg) I first considered settling on the eastern coast of that peninsula. On some consideration, I actually think that founding it on St. Pete's grave would work out well (appropriately enough). It will still block H.C. from traveling by land (though it won't block the eastern seas) and it gets all the furs plus sheep and grassland tiles, so it might be able to produce enough food to work all those furs (meaning more income). I wouldn't steal the wheat from the northern white dot, but it's possible since White Dot (3?) has so many watered grasslands.

Blue/Gray is a filler meant to get the wheat and deer, hopefully minimizing the amount of tundra it picks up. I figured I'd put it on the coast. Getting that fish is most likely not worth it.

Teal dot is meant to plug up the middle in the lakes. I think it could even be moved 1W. It loses the plains wheat, yes, but it picks up some grass and a grassland hill, which I think can make up for it. I think it could be a commerce city with some production power from the hills. (I'd probably move it west after some consideration.)

I, of course, did not attempt to dot any further east because the likelihood we can get there before the Inca is absurd. We might not even get these dots, but we might if we really focus on expansion.

Anyway, please discuss. When we settle out there, after we probably want to go outside in? Settle the easternmost White Dots, then maybe St. Petersburg and then Teal Dot?

 

[Glare Seethe]

I agree with teal and white's locations, yellow I still need to think about for a while. There is room for at least another two cities down there in the tundra, though I'd like to reveal the coast a bit more. But those are filler cities in any case.

I think we can make all of these sites before Huayna if we focus on settlers in the upcoming turnsets. Looks like he's focusing his expansion efforts up north.